IRC log of dap on 2011-07-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:10:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:10:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
07:10:31 [Zakim]
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07:10:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
07:10:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP(WGF2F)2:00AM scheduled to start 70 minutes ago
07:10:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
07:10:34 [trackbot]
Date: 20 July 2011
07:10:48 [cmarc]
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07:10:51 [francois]
Chair: Frederick, Robin
07:10:56 [cmarc]
Present+ Cecile_Marc
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Present+ Kihong_Kwon
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07:11:56 [fjh]
trackbot, start telecon
07:11:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
07:12:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
07:12:00 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP(WGF2F)2:00AM scheduled to start 72 minutes ago
07:12:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
07:12:01 [trackbot]
Date: 20 July 2011
07:12:48 [fjh]
Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
07:12:48 [francois]
Present+ Francois_Daoust
07:12:51 [ceyrigno]
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07:13:02 [fjh]
Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
07:13:04 [robin]
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07:13:16 [fjh]
07:13:16 [francois]
07:13:37 [ceyrigno]
Present+ Christophe_Eyrignoux
07:13:41 [fjh]
ScribeNick: ingmar
07:13:47 [fjh]
Topic: Administrative
07:14:14 [kyungtak]
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07:14:24 [SungOk_You]
Present+ SungOk_You
07:14:31 [kyungtak]
Present+ Kyung-Tak_Lee
07:15:30 [Johnson]
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07:15:37 [ernesto_jimenez]
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07:15:58 [ernesto_jimenez]
Present+ ernesto_jimenez
07:16:37 [Johnson]
Present+ Johnson_Wang
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07:17:47 [bryan]
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07:18:03 [bryan]
present+ Sullivan_Bryan
07:22:02 [robin]
scribe: ernesto_jimenez
07:22:09 [robin]
scribenick: ernesto_jimenez
07:22:48 [fjh]
Topic: Testing
07:23:14 [ernesto_jimenez]
Topic: Testing
07:24:56 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: We would like to change the situation where each WG handles it's own testing. We are about to create a testing activity with a testing interest group and probably a working group
07:25:50 [ernesto_jimenez]
... the testing interest group will be the place to discuss testing and tools, and we'll be developing the framework for the groups to develop their own tests
07:26:44 [ernesto_jimenez]
... if people are interested in joining or taking a role in that activity, please get in touch
07:27:18 [francois]
Draft charter of the Browser Testing IG (not under review yet):
07:27:31 [ernesto_jimenez]
... the group hasn't been formalised yet, but it should be soon
07:27:54 [francois]
Draft charter of the Browser Testing and Tools WG (not yet under review):
07:28:19 [francois]
07:28:30 [ernesto_jimenez]
... we have a public mailing list called public-test-infra
07:28:37 [robin]
07:29:22 [ernesto_jimenez]
... the interest group is to work in the framework and the working group is to work on the web driver area (browser simulation)
07:30:22 [ernesto_jimenez]
... you will soon receive formal links to review the charter
07:31:24 [ernesto_jimenez]
... in the mean time we have been reviewing the existing testing frameworks and we have decided to start working with the CSS framework
07:32:23 [ernesto_jimenez]
... I would encourage you to adapt DAP tests and use the framework
07:33:06 [ernesto_jimenez]
fjh: I've seen the charter and it looks like this only affects to browser tests
07:34:16 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: yes, we have focused on browser testing because it's more common across different working groups
07:34:53 [wonsuk]
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07:35:16 [wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
07:35:31 [ingmar]
present+ Ingmar_Kliche
07:35:45 [shan]
Present+ Soonbo_Han
07:35:45 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: in terms of tooling, is everything pretty much open?
07:35:57 [francois]
Draft Testing requirements:
07:36:04 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: yes, everything is open right now, we started a wiki
07:36:39 [ernesto_jimenez]
... with an architecture with the testing framework we want and we already got some suggestions
07:37:28 [ernesto_jimenez]
... the main goal is to test specifications
07:39:05 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: talking about tools that will allow to generate tests from the spec given certain markup
07:39:51 [robin]
07:39:52 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: we want to start having WG developing tests and writing the specs with testable assertions, in the long term we would like to have the test generation from the spec, but it's a long term goal
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Present+ Daniel_Appelquist_(Lurking)
07:41:15 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: talking about the document on how to write testable conformance requirements
07:42:05 [ernesto_jimenez]
bryan: it would be good to have some resources in W3C to assist working groups on their testing activities
07:43:07 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: we'll need the resources, we need support to get the resources
07:43:27 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: have you started talking with external organizations?
07:44:05 [robin]
07:44:25 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: not yet, we have had a contact with XXX1 and we will collaborate with them to work in an open interop event
07:45:04 [ernesto_jimenez]
... they are working in interop through testing with the mosquito project
07:46:10 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: have you talked to WAC?
07:47:10 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: some people in the interest group have been in WAC. The difference with WAC and other orgs is that they do testing for certification and we don't want to do certification in the W3C
07:47:39 [robin]
07:47:49 [ernesto_jimenez]
... but we want to create test suites that can be extracted into other test suites
07:48:11 [ernesto_jimenez]
... the difficulty is to find a common set that works for different organisations and companies
07:50:26 [ernesto_jimenez]
Youngsun: asks about TV testing?
07:50:27 [robin]
07:51:49 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: there has been some talk on the Web & TV about a testing framework suitable for TV and extracting some parts of the HTML5 tests, but the focus right now is on browsers
07:51:58 [ernesto_jimenez]
bryan: asks about selenium
07:52:09 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: explains what selenium is and what it does
07:53:13 [ernesto_jimenez]
... we want testing for different browsers, not only desktop, and we want to create a web driver standard that applies to browsers for different devices
07:54:47 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: there's support for selenium in some mobile browsers
07:55:08 [ernesto_jimenez]
ernesto: the problem is that it's a hack, so it'll be nice to have an standard API
07:55:31 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: that's the idea, to create an standard API to do web driver testing
07:55:50 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: will it include screen captures?
07:56:20 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: I don't think it's part on the web driver API, but I would suggest that you suggest to add screen capture in the charter of the working group
07:56:59 [ernesto_jimenez]
07:58:11 [ernesto_jimenez]
bryan: asks about the interop event
07:58:22 [wonsuk]
WebDriver For Mobile Browsers:
07:58:37 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: says it'll probably be in december, in Europe and probably with more focus on mobile because of the people involved
07:59:24 [ernesto_jimenez]
bryan: when you say it's about testing browsers, does that include widget runtimes?
07:59:47 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: yes
08:00:18 [ernesto_jimenez]
bryan: so the charter will say the focus will be in browsers and widget runtimes?
08:01:35 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: says the charter doesn't mention widget runtimes explicitly right now, he suggests bryan to do the suggestion when he reviews the charter
08:04:09 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: asks if the ig will be open
08:04:37 [ernesto_jimenez]
francois: it's not official yet, so it cannot be confirmed. with the charter as it is now, it will be open
08:05:02 [robin]
08:05:38 [robin]
hg clone
08:05:40 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: is introducing the contacts test suite
08:06:10 [robin]
08:08:10 [robin]
08:09:36 [bryan_]
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08:10:47 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: asking if anybody is interested in developing tests in the WG
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08:13:48 [robin]
08:13:54 [ernesto_jimenez]
Topic: Messaging API
08:14:14 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: introducing the messaging API
08:14:30 [robin]
08:15:15 [ernesto_jimenez]
... there was an issue where you could not know what protocol was available, so a new design was suggested
08:15:28 [robin]
<a href=''>
08:15:38 [robin]
08:15:51 [robin]
<a href=''>
08:16:05 [ernesto_jimenez]
... where you will have an addAttachments method that would only be available for protocols that support attachments
08:16:29 [ernesto_jimenez]
robin: mailto would have an .addAttachments() method, but xmpp wouldn't
08:20:10 [ernesto_jimenez]
bryan: clarifying that it's not about finding if a protocol has support for attachments, but finding out what messaging protocols are supported in the browser (mail, sms, xmpp)
08:21:06 [robin]
ACTION: Robin to review Messaging for publication
08:21:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-431 - Review Messaging for publication [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-07-27].
08:43:39 [ingmar]
scribe: ingmar
08:44:07 [robin]
scribenick: ingmar
08:49:38 [ingmar]
topic "Media capture"
08:49:48 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:49:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate francois
08:49:54 [ingmar]
topic: Media capture
08:50:43 [robin]
08:50:44 [ingmar]
there is no technical work to be done at the moment on HTML Media Capture
08:51:20 [ingmar]
robin: question is about how to move on with Media Capture API
08:52:35 [ingmar]
robin: coordination call with WebRTC, WebRTC would work on the streaming and media handling as discussed yesterday
08:54:18 [robin]
08:54:30 [ingmar]
robin: current Media Caputure API could be developed further towards camera control (flash etc)
08:55:05 [robin]
08:56:51 [ingmar]
robin: this proposal handles streaming, but not e.g. zooming
08:57:44 [ingmar]
brian: if we decide to drop the media capture api we should ask the group
08:58:15 [fjh]
08:59:46 [ingmar]
robin: the media capture api with zooming etc should work together with the streaming api
09:01:14 [ingmar]
robin: the problem might be that the media capture api might just be a replacement of the systems capturing capability
09:05:37 [ingmar]
robin. the media capture api provides a few advantages over HTML media caputure, such as format and length settings, but this might not be enough for a separate spech
09:05:45 [ingmar]
09:08:03 [ingmar]
bryan: the most interesting use case is to show a video as a preview inside an HTML page, record it and send it to the server (e.g. social media side)
09:08:20 [ingmar]
robin: this could be achieved with the web-apps proposal
09:08:57 [ingmar]
... we agreed in Seoul to rely on whatever WebRTC will do on codecs
09:12:29 [Kihong_Kwon]
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09:14:50 [ingmar]
ingmar: capturing/recording would be covered by the web-apps/webrtc proposal, what would be the benefit of DAPs media capture api? Camera control?
09:15:47 [ingmar]
robin: video and audio recording would be covered by webrtc, but taking pictures presumably not
09:16:18 [fjh]
09:17:24 [ingmar]
robin: the question remains if there is room for another spec between HTML media capture and the streaming API of webrtc
09:18:17 [ingmar]
ernesto: what is the status of HTML media capture?
09:18:38 [ingmar]
robin: it should be stable, need some discussion with HTML wg
09:18:44 [francois]
[probably worth dropping the note in the introduction that says "The Working Group is investigating the opportunity to specify streaming access via the proposed <device> element."]
09:24:39 [robin]
issue: HTML Media Capture doesn't make sense if accept=image and capture=microphone
09:24:39 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-116 - HTML Media Capture doesn't make sense if accept=image and capture=microphone ; please complete additional details at .
09:25:14 [robin]
issue: Should HTML Media Capture have options for front/user camera as in getUserMedia
09:25:14 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-117 - Should HTML Media Capture have options for front/user camera as in getUserMedia ; please complete additional details at .
09:26:56 [robin]
ACTION: Ernesto to make a proposal for ISSUE-116 and ISSUE-117
09:26:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-432 - Make a proposal for ISSUE-116 and ISSUE-117 [on Ernesto Jimenez - due 2011-07-27].
09:29:59 [SungOk_You_]
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09:30:28 [ingmar]
robin: there dosn't seem to be huge interest in continuing media caputure api
09:30:52 [francois]
09:31:56 [ingmar]
robin: we might want to think about use cases such as zooming or other camera control and observe the API proposal of WebRTC
09:33:28 [ingmar]
Topic: Permissions API
09:33:50 [robin]
09:34:31 [ingmar]
lazlo: this spec is used by the WebNotification spec
09:34:42 [lgombos__]
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09:34:59 [ingmar]
09:35:06 [lgombos__]
webnotification feedback -
09:35:15 [lgombos__]
09:35:52 [Josh_Soref]
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09:35:58 [Josh_Soref]
present+ Josh_Soref
09:36:06 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
09:36:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
09:37:27 [robin]
09:39:18 [Josh_Soref]
(webapps and html-wg are moving to numerical constants)
09:42:33 [robin]
RESOLUTION: Switch to string constants
09:42:51 [robin]
... because existing implementatons are vendor prefixed
09:44:35 [ingmar]
lgombos__ noticed that SysInfo has the same issue
09:44:52 [Josh_Soref]
s/lgombos__/lgombos__: I/
09:44:54 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
09:44:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
09:45:22 [ingmar]
... if we make this change in permissions api we should also make it in other specs
09:46:30 [fjh]
discussion on whether this functionality be available from workers
09:47:37 [lgombos__]
made the following chnages to the spec; added [NoInterfaceObject] to the Permissions interface; renamed Navigator to NavigatorPermissions
09:50:43 [ingmar]
robin: the default for a new spec should be "not available from workers"
09:50:47 [richt]
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09:51:42 [robin]
ACTION: Laszlo to reply to Anne about his Permissions questions
09:51:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-433 - Reply to Anne about his Permissions questions [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-07-27].
09:54:22 [Josh_Soref]
permissionLevel would be better as permissionLevelFor
09:55:19 [Josh_Soref]
robin suggests permissionLevel would be better as permissionFor
09:57:16 [robin]
09:57:48 [ingmar]
robin: we leave the names as is
09:58:32 [johnson]
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09:59:08 [johnson]
Present+ Wang_Johnson
09:59:11 [robin]
10:00:24 [Josh_Soref]
[ ]
10:03:35 [ingmar]
robin: future specs should define their strings, but we probably need a document for existing specs
10:07:08 [ingmar]
robin: the only legacy spec seems to be geolocation
10:07:35 [ingmar]
Josh_Soref: how about versioning?
10:11:21 [robin]
10:16:14 [robin]
ACTION: Dom to investigate if DAP could use the XPointer registration code for feature registration
10:16:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-434 - Investigate if DAP could use the XPointer registration code for feature registration [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2011-07-27].
10:20:23 [ingmar]
robin: will send the conclusions of the discussion to the group mailing list later
10:21:13 [ingmar]
robin: when could we go to FPWD?
10:22:06 [Josh_Soref]
[ robin captures action items necessary before FPWD ]
10:22:50 [ingmar]
Josh_Soref: what needs to be done is to copy over the prefix paragraph, metion that there is a registration process, create legacy list, recommendation on features for granularity
10:23:23 [Josh_Soref]
10:23:56 [Josh_Soref]
s/features/when distinct feature names might be needed/
10:24:45 [robin]
ACTION: Laszlo to update the Permissions draft based on f2f discussion and summary email from Robin in planning for FPWD, due 2011-09-01
10:24:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-435 - Update the Permissions draft based on f2f discussion and summary email from Robin in planning for FPWD, due 2011-09-01 [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-07-27].
10:24:55 [robin]
10:24:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-435 -- Laszlo Gombos to update the Permissions draft based on f2f discussion and summary email from Robin in planning for FPWD, due 2011-09-01 -- due 2011-07-27 -- OPEN
10:24:55 [trackbot]
10:25:41 [Josh_Soref]
We probably want a testable example permission which can be used for testing the specification
10:26:17 [robin]
ACTION: Wonsuk to provide an example for Permissions
10:26:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-436 - Provide an example for Permissions [on WonSuk Lee - due 2011-07-27].
11:30:20 [johnson]
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11:30:45 [johnson]
Present+ Wang_Johnson
11:33:45 [Cathy_]
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11:36:39 [Cathy_]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
11:36:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Cathy_
11:38:11 [wonsuk]
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11:52:41 [robin]
zakim, who's your daddy?
11:52:56 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, who's your daddy?
11:52:56 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who's your daddy'
11:53:02 [Zakim]
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11:53:07 [robin]
zakim, who's your daddy?
11:53:07 [Zakim]
Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, robin
11:53:39 [cmarc]
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11:53:49 [cmarc]
Present+ cecile_Marc
11:53:50 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:53:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
11:55:31 [francois]
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11:56:59 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
11:57:00 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
11:57:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fjh, francois, Cathy_, cmarc, Zakim, Kihong_Kwon, robin, wonsuk, johnson, richt, Josh_Soref, bryan, Youngsun, ernesto_jimenez, kyungtak, RRSAgent, shan, lgombos,
11:57:04 [Zakim]
... ilkka, ingmar, dom, trackbot
11:57:32 [francois]
scribe: cmarc
11:57:53 [lgombos_]
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11:58:06 [robin]
ScribeNick: cmarc
11:58:50 [SungOk_You]
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11:59:09 [richt]
could someone prod me when the agenda moves to Web & TV? ...
11:59:11 [richt]
... I have a number of things to do before I go on vacation tomorrow for a few weeks so regrets that I can't attend the whole meeting.
11:59:56 [cmarc]
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12:00:44 [cmarc]
TOPIC: network information
12:01:02 [robin]
12:01:17 [cmarc]
robin: has feedback from ingmar
12:01:29 [bryan_]
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12:01:40 [cmarc]
the problem is the cost information
12:01:50 [richt]
actually, I will dial in and listen now. Could someone open the bridge?
12:01:51 [cmarc]
status in wac or gsma
12:02:03 [Cathy]
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12:02:10 [Cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
12:02:14 [cmarc]
look in android 2 types
12:02:30 [cmarc]
wifi and ..
12:02:52 [cmarc]
is it useful to have detail 2g, 3G
12:02:56 [Josh_Soref]
[ ]
12:03:03 [cmarc]
mobile or wifi should be sufficient (bryan)
12:03:07 [robin]
12:03:18 [Josh_Soref]
[ ]
12:03:48 [cmarc]
josh: care about roaming
12:04:45 [cmarc]
if the apps can know your cost ..
12:04:48 [Josh_Soref]
public String getTypeName () Return a human-readable name describe the type of the network, for example "WIFI" or "MOBILE".
12:06:16 [cmarc]
robin: cost is quite impossible to specify
12:06:47 [cmarc]
the problem is that roaming is not deterministic for cost
12:07:02 [cmarc]
it depends on operators, regions
12:07:19 [cmarc]
too difficult to quantify
12:08:21 [francois]
zakim, this will be DAP
12:08:21 [Zakim]
ok, francois, I see UW_DAP(WGF2F)2:00AM already started
12:08:26 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, what's the code?
12:08:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 94323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Josh_Soref
12:09:13 [Zakim]
12:09:18 [cmarc]
Robin opens the bridge
12:09:22 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is on the call?
12:09:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see richt, Cathy, Orange
12:09:52 [cmarc]
subject cost and network info
12:10:35 [Josh_Soref]
robin informs us that there are places one can roam to where you'd be paying less than your home area
12:10:36 [cmarc]
there is an operator in africa who offer the same price for 5 countries
12:11:07 [richt]
Present+ Rich_Tibbett
12:11:13 [cmarc]
section 4, multiple online event
12:11:19 [cmarc]
can be an issue
12:11:35 [cmarc]
it might trigger quite regularly
12:12:13 [cmarc]
an event is fired if you change from 2g to 3g for example
12:12:20 [cmarc]
and it can change very often
12:12:32 [ceyrigno]
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12:14:02 [cmarc]
bryan : it is not relevent to have 2g, 3G and so many details
12:14:34 [cmarc]
robin: so at the end is this API useful at all?
12:16:04 [cmarc]
the idea was : if they are different versions (optimized) of site, benefit to the good one
12:17:34 [cmarc]
is there any active usage of this API
12:17:54 [cmarc]
Phonegap has an implementation
12:18:15 [cmarc]
bb as well
12:18:32 [cmarc]
josh: we should inf out what is used
12:18:43 [cmarc]
find out (sorry)
12:19:12 [Josh_Soref]
s/inf out/find out/
12:19:51 [cmarc]
google api is not documented
12:19:55 [robin]
12:23:30 [cmarc]
robin: should we talk to google people about that
12:23:56 [robin]
ACTION: Laszlo to talk to the Android people about whether the Netinfo API is used and something they think was a good idea
12:23:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-437 - Talk to the Android people about whether the Netinfo API is used and something they think was a good idea [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-07-27].
12:24:50 [cmarc]
bryan: how can we use it if not documented ?
12:25:04 [cmarc]
josh: good question, but it is common in mobile web
12:25:11 [robin]
ACTION: Josh to talk to Brian Leroux about the Netinfo API in PhoneGap to ask about uptake and feedback
12:25:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-438 - Talk to Brian Leroux about the Netinfo API in PhoneGap to ask about uptake and feedback [on Josh Soref - due 2011-07-27].
12:25:18 [Josh_Soref]
s/mobile/mobile (and sadly even non-mobile)/
12:26:39 [cmarc]
robin: we can freeze implementation on it
12:30:31 [cmarc]
josh: sensors he apis on deviceorientation ...
12:30:40 [Josh_Soref]
12:32:01 [cmarc]
use case : use a device as a mouse
12:32:10 [cmarc]
proximity sensor
12:32:39 [cmarc]
robin: if people have use cases,on it
12:34:12 [cmarc]
josh: has it to be managed at the app level or platform level? platform
12:35:59 [cmarc]
laszlo: which event should be managed by the page?
12:37:17 [cmarc]
robin: should someone take an action to look at use cases, see what is relevant?
12:39:40 [Josh_Soref]
Feedback from others has been about wanting to get information from medical sensors
12:40:27 [Josh_Soref]
Our response to them was to try using a local websocket source to translate the information for use by web apps
12:40:55 [Josh_Soref]
It might make sense to have a NOTE suggesting something like that to people interested in exposing sensors
12:40:58 [robin]
ACTION: Bryan to draft use cases for proximity, ambient light, and ambient sound sensors.
12:40:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-439 - Draft use cases for proximity, ambient light, and ambient sound sensors. [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2011-07-27].
12:42:19 [cmarc]
write all the ideas about sensors
12:43:15 [fjh]
fjh has joined #dap
12:43:38 [cmarc]
ernesto: it depends on sensors, we need something consistent for acceleromter for example
12:43:43 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
12:43:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
12:45:37 [cmarc]
robin : maybe klaas wanted to propose something
12:46:10 [robin]
12:46:31 [robin]
[FWIW in Claes talks about using Web Introducer for generic sensors]
12:47:57 [cmarc]
there was no depployed implementation in bondi
12:48:13 [cmarc]
implemented probably but not deployed ....
12:49:38 [cmarc]
basically, if you don't trust websites...
12:51:09 [cmarc]
overall synsinfo status spec is not moving
12:52:16 [robin]
12:52:58 [cmarc]
next topic
12:53:57 [cmarc]
WebIntroducer is in dap group
12:54:23 [cmarc]
it is in the charter
12:56:20 [cmarc]
people involved in that document may join the group (in discussion)
12:56:38 [cmarc]
TOPIC: Web and TV
12:57:00 [francois]
Web and TV IG wiki:
12:57:24 [cmarc]
François : it is an interest group, don't develop standards
12:57:41 [cmarc]
was created following the workshop
12:58:01 [cmarc]
the third workshop will occur in west coast in september
12:58:04 [francois]
CfP for 3rd workshop:
12:58:15 [cmarc]
(first in japan, second was in berlin)
12:58:32 [cmarc]
it was in february this year
12:58:57 [cmarc]
discuss about needs for convergence between web and tv
12:59:10 [cmarc]
(not tv on web, or web on tv)
12:59:28 [cmarc]
mediapipeline task force: extend video stag
12:59:40 [cmarc]
13:00:01 [cmarc]
other topics adaptive streaming over http
13:00:08 [cmarc]
accessibility issues
13:00:13 [cmarc]
emergency issues
13:00:53 [cmarc]
two active TF: home networking task force
13:00:55 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:00:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:01:06 [cmarc]
and mediapipeline TF
13:02:53 [cmarc]
robin: hbbtv? involved
13:03:03 [cmarc]
national, regional organization involved
13:03:18 [cmarc]
many companies, broadcasters, etc..
13:03:48 [robin]
13:04:11 [cmarc]
François: some are invited to join dap
13:04:31 [cmarc]
as the subject they are interested in are in this group
13:05:01 [cmarc]
so that they work also on deliverables
13:06:41 [cmarc]
TV is an important device, DAP is about mobile, desktop, TV, etc..
13:08:19 [cmarc]
françois: there is not point to have a web and TV working group
13:09:36 [cmarc]
one topic discussed is device discovery
13:10:23 [cmarc]
because TV is often the middle of other devices (at home)
13:10:43 [cmarc]
device discovery is in dap new charter
13:11:41 [cmarc]
(charter is waiting for management approval-soon)
13:14:02 [cmarc]
he home nework TF is producing use cases and requirement
13:15:16 [cmarc]
DAP could use those use cases and requirements
13:15:38 [cmarc]
the participants of the TF has to move to WG
13:15:46 [cmarc]
to contribute here in DAP
13:17:31 [cmarc]
robin: the discovery has a lot of synergy with dap other works
13:17:57 [richt]
oh god, we're talking about 'synergies'.
13:18:14 [cmarc]
but is this does not work out... we will have to find something else
13:18:49 [richt]
s/oh god, we're talking about 'synergies'.//
13:20:39 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:20:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:20:51 [robin]
--- break ---
13:21:19 [robin]
Zakim, count down 15 minutes
13:21:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'count down 15 minutes', robin
13:21:23 [robin]
zakim, help
13:21:23 [Zakim]
Please refer to for more detailed help.
13:21:26 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
13:21:28 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
13:21:31 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
13:21:34 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
13:21:37 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
13:21:40 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
13:21:43 [Josh_Soref]
s/he home nework/the home network/
13:21:44 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
13:21:47 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
13:21:50 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
13:21:53 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
13:21:55 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
13:21:57 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
13:22:00 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
13:22:02 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
13:22:04 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
13:22:05 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2010/03/15 18:49:04 $
13:22:09 [robin]
Zakim, ping us in 15 minutes
13:22:09 [Zakim]
ok, robin
13:22:55 [robin]
why does this stupid bot tell me to go visit a link then flood the channel?
13:23:45 [Josh_Soref]
s/producing use cases and requirement/producing use cases and requirements/
13:23:58 [Josh_Soref]
s/why does this stupid bot tell me to go visit a link then flood the channel?//
13:24:00 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:24:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:24:34 [Josh_Soref]
s/dap new charter/DAP's new [proposed] charter/
13:25:19 [Josh_Soref]
s/has to move to WG/are encouraged to move to WG .../
13:25:53 [Zakim]
13:37:10 [Zakim]
robin, you asked to be pinged at this time
13:39:19 [Zakim]
13:39:30 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:39:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:39:53 [robin]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:39:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see richt, Orange, Cathy
13:39:59 [Josh_Soref]
s/as the subject/... as the subject/
13:40:18 [Josh_Soref]
s/in this group/in this group;/
13:40:26 [Josh_Soref]
s/so that they/... so that they/
13:40:34 [francois]
scribe: francois
13:40:35 [Josh_Soref]
s/also on deliverables/also on deliverables./
13:40:44 [Josh_Soref]
s/TV is an important/... TV is an important/
13:40:58 [Josh_Soref]
s/web and TV working group/web and TV working group./
13:41:08 [francois]
Topic: Discovery
13:41:14 [Josh_Soref]
s/one topic discussed/... One topic discussed/
13:41:15 [robin]
13:41:39 [Josh_Soref]
s/because TV is often the middle/... because TV is often the middle/
13:41:41 [francois]
rich: I'll present an introduction to how I see things here.
13:41:59 [Josh_Soref]
s/device discovery/... Device discovery/
13:41:59 [robin]
13:42:03 [francois]
... Giuseppe Pascale is chair of the home network TF within the Web and TV IG. They have been working on use cases and requirements.
13:42:12 [Josh_Soref]
s/(charter/... (charter/
13:42:26 [Josh_Soref]
13:42:35 [Josh_Soref]
s/the home network TF/... The home network TF/
13:42:43 [francois]
... Opera proposed an API. Took a few months to design it. A lot of Giuseppe's opinions were formed based on internal discussions at Opera.
13:42:44 [Josh_Soref]
s/producing use cases and requirements/producing use cases and requirements./
13:42:56 [Josh_Soref]
s/DAP could use those use /... DAP could use those use /
13:43:06 [Josh_Soref]
s/the participants of the TF are/... the participants of the TF are/
13:43:14 [francois]
... Large ecosystem of devices we produce systems for (game consoles, desktop, mobiles, TVs, ...)
13:43:16 [Josh_Soref]
s/to contribute here in DAP/... to contribute here in DAP./
13:43:23 [francois]
... interest to have these devices communicate.
13:43:23 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:43:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:43:45 [francois]
... This proposal allows a Web page running on a domain to discover, connect and communicate with home network devices.
13:43:53 [francois]
... Local network services.
13:43:56 [Josh_Soref]
s/as the subject they are interested in/... as the subject they are interested in/
13:44:05 [francois]
... This proposal exposes these services.
13:44:23 [Josh_Soref]
s/One topic discussed is device discovery/... One topic discussed is device discovery/
13:44:31 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:44:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:44:52 [fjh_]
fjh_ has joined #dap
13:44:52 [francois]
... We looked at the different service discovery protocols, mDNS, UPnP.
13:45:03 [kyungtak]
kyungtak has joined #dap
13:45:05 [francois]
... Initially, we thought we'd need separate interfaces for each.
13:45:18 [francois]
... We found a way to merge them.
13:45:32 [francois]
... Half-way at least.
13:45:57 [francois]
... The details of the discovery protocols are left away.
13:46:12 [francois]
... The proposal supports UPnP (SSDP) and mDNS (zeroconf).
13:46:19 [francois]
... We kept removing stuff rather than adding stuff.
13:46:38 [francois]
... We found a level of abstraction which is very low but allows to use different discovery protocols.
13:46:55 [Josh_Soref]
s/find out (sorry)//
13:47:01 [fjh_]
q+ to ask a few questions about the discovery spec
13:47:05 [francois]
... That suits local network use cases because there is not much agreement on top of device discovery protocols.
13:47:22 [francois]
... There is no real standard for communication.
13:47:52 [Josh_Soref]
13:47:55 [francois]
... The service endpoint within devices becomes first-class URI for that service. Whitelisted. Same-origin.
13:48:03 [francois]
... Discussed briefly in the Web and TV IG.
13:48:31 [francois]
... which will still produce a use cases and requirements document which may affect some of this. We wanted to prototype, hence the submission.
13:48:59 [Josh_Soref]
s/was created following the workshop/[the wiki?] was created following the workshop/
13:49:13 [francois]
... We submitted it to get feedback to see if we're doing it in a sane way. To obtain feedback early. There's good chance that some of it will change significantly but we'll handle it with vendor prefixes.
13:49:23 [ingmar]
13:49:29 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:49:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
13:49:55 [francois]
... For it to be a success and attract new participants in DAP to work on this, separation of work items in DAP is very important. Email tagging is essential.
13:50:00 [Josh_Soref]
s/[the wiki/... [the wiki/
13:50:13 [Josh_Soref]
s/following the workshop/following the workshop./
13:50:13 [francois]
... Once we have that, the hope is that people from Web and TV will join DAP.
13:50:31 [francois]
... The idea is to collect the technical people within DAP to pursue this proposal.
13:50:47 [francois]
... Note it's just a proposal, nothing set in stone.
13:50:57 [francois]
... That doesn't preclude other proposals.
13:51:18 [francois]
... Feedback welcome on device API list.
13:51:22 [robin]
13:51:29 [francois]
robin: thanks for the introduction.
13:51:31 [Josh_Soref]
ack fjh_
13:51:31 [Zakim]
fjh_, you wanted to ask a few questions about the discovery spec
13:51:31 [robin]
ack fjh_
13:52:19 [francois]
fjh: I assume that you're not mandating UPnP or zeroconf. I'm not sure whether we should keep details about how to use it with those protocols.
13:52:58 [francois]
rich: we have discussed this internally and externally. Interesting one. Do we mandate both? Or do we leave things unspecified?
13:53:09 [francois]
... For prototyping at Opera, we'll handle both.
13:53:39 [francois]
... The level of details in the proposal was meant to remove ambiguity, to improve interoperability.
13:54:16 [francois]
fjh: the UA maintains the table, consistently polling what's around. I guess there's a battery performance concern here.
13:54:46 [francois]
rich: the UA can do that initially, or when the API is called. Everything's asyncrhonous in the API.
13:55:13 [francois]
13:55:31 [francois]
fjh: when you use this API, do you have to know what mechanism is underneath?
13:56:07 [francois]
rich: it's transparent, but you, as a Web developer, can precise a given UPnP service.
13:56:22 [francois]
... the API pushes a lot of the logic into JavaScript.
13:56:36 [francois]
fjh: so the developer needs to have an understanding of what's going on underneath.
13:56:38 [francois]
rich: yes.
13:56:54 [francois]
robin: you mention implementing, prototyping. Any progress?
13:57:10 [francois]
rich: nothing public yet, but top priority.
13:57:59 [francois]
robin: have you talked with guys behind Web Introducer? I was wondering if there was a way to make both things work together. Local network is one thing, but it might happen that the service is remote.
13:58:38 [francois]
rich: the current process will search the local domain for services. What you can do is specify a remote domain and scan for services there. Possible with DNS-SD.
13:59:21 [francois]
... The Web Introducer is somewhat parallel, there are points that may need connecting. That would be next step.
13:59:37 [francois]
robin: any concerns about UPnP and interoperability?
14:00:05 [robin]
[certification costs money]
14:00:05 [Cathy]
q+ to get clarifications on discovery
14:00:11 [robin]
14:00:33 [francois]
rich: yes. UPnP suffers from fragmentation. That's what we don't want to embed a complete UPnP library in the browser.
14:00:44 [Josh_Soref]
ack Cathy
14:00:44 [Zakim]
Cathy, you wanted to get clarifications on discovery
14:00:55 [francois]
... That's why we push things to JavaScript.
14:01:30 [fjh__]
fjh__ has joined #dap
14:01:37 [francois]
Cathy: do you foresee if you just do all the UPnP discovery in the background?
14:01:38 [Josh_Soref]
[ scribe lost bits; richt suggested that javascript libraries would be written and maintained to handle specific profiles ]
14:02:19 [francois]
[ scribe also missed technical discussion between Cathy and Rich ]
14:02:39 [Zakim]
14:02:57 [Zakim]
14:03:59 [francois]
Cathy: my concern is that we're suggesting browser vendors to do discovery in the background. If you have a lot of devices in the network sending notifications, then lots of requests will be generated.
14:05:04 [francois]
rich: yes, we'll handle that if needed
14:06:11 [francois]
[ more discussion on "background" concerns. Please make points scribe missed on IRC ]
14:07:05 [francois]
rich: once you get a service in a Web page, you don't care how you got it. What matters is what you can do with it.
14:07:23 [francois]
robin: you mentioned other spec you had a look at. Do you mean Dave Raggett's one?
14:07:32 [francois]
rich: yes and other internal proposals.
14:07:50 [francois]
robin: the current API does whitelisting of services. Have you considered CORS?
14:07:54 [Cathy]
s/sending notifications/sending periodic notifications/
14:08:04 [francois]
rich: yes, that's an interesting angle.
14:08:17 [Cathy]
s/lots of requests will be generated/lots of messages will need to be processed/
14:08:20 [francois]
... We don't want to replicate the billions of devices that exist in the network.
14:08:33 [Josh_Soref]
q+ to ask whether the browser could synthesize a cors response
14:08:50 [francois]
... The problem with CORS is that if you want to have access, you have to add domains or IP address you want to add access to.
14:09:05 [francois]
... You could have * which is a very bad idea in a local network context.
14:09:28 [francois]
... You don't know the IP address of the computer in the local network as it appears to other devices.
14:09:32 [Josh_Soref]
q+ to ask whether the browser is capable of consistently identifying individual local devices
14:09:56 [francois]
... Having said that, CORS could work. If we could get CORS to work in the local network, we could use it.
14:10:32 [francois]
... The main problem with this API is that UPnP is inherently unsecure.
14:10:46 [Josh_Soref]
q+ to ask if UPnP is dangerous (in the HTTP DELETE sense, as opposed to the HTTP DENIAL OF PAPER api)
14:10:54 [francois]
... [Other solutions mentioned such as the one used in Google TV]
14:11:13 [francois]
... In short, changes are required to CORS.
14:11:14 [Josh_Soref]
14:11:17 [Josh_Soref]
ack me
14:11:17 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to ask whether the browser could synthesize a cors response and to ask whether the browser is capable of consistently identifying individual local devices
14:11:20 [Zakim]
... and to ask if UPnP is dangerous (in the HTTP DELETE sense, as opposed to the HTTP DENIAL OF PAPER api)
14:12:07 [Cathy]
s/[ more discussion on "background" concerns. Please make points scribe missed on IRC ]/Cathy: the steps on discovery implies that the UA has to perform discovery in the background. Need to clarify how steps might be different if discovery happens only on invocation of the API./
14:12:08 [francois]
josh: can the browser synthesize a CORS response?
14:12:35 [francois]
robin: presumably, what the browser is already doing is writing to the same whitelist that CORS is already using.
14:12:40 [francois]
rich: robin's correct.
14:12:49 [francois]
josh: should be spelled out in the spec.
14:13:20 [francois]
robin: so long as we're confident it's the same processing internally in the browser to allow for cross-domain requests, then that's good.
14:14:01 [francois]
josh: is the browser capable of consistently identifying individual local devices?
14:14:24 [francois]
rich: that's a good question and a possible limit of the discovery protocol. A problem with zeroconf.
14:14:38 [francois]
... Other protocols provide a unique identifier.
14:15:43 [francois]
josh: can things bump of? Imagine someone knocks off my Wifi network and replace my stereo system with his.
14:16:08 [francois]
robin: I guess the question is what happens if you trust something in the public network and it screws things over?
14:17:20 [francois]
rich: we're working with the issues of UPnP.
14:17:59 [robin]
14:18:01 [richt]
robin: :)
14:18:02 [francois]
josh: ok, too early probably to worry about that. We'll get to it.
14:18:31 [francois]
... Last point: isn't UPnP dangerous?
14:19:29 [francois]
robin: yes, if you have a UPnP controlled robot, then you can have it kill yourself.
14:19:57 [francois]
josh: are there any deployed devices which have a delete button that doesn't require authentification?
14:20:10 [francois]
rich: as part of my research, I'd say no.
14:20:20 [Cathy]
UPnP has an optional device protection service (
14:20:28 [richt]
bottom line is UPnP is inherently insecure, hence the need for a security UI before connecting.
14:20:58 [francois]
josh: my concern is "delete". Something I can't undelete.
14:21:17 [richt]
actually any local networked services COULD be designed to be insecure. It's on a case-by-case basis.
14:21:41 [francois]
robin: should this work with Web Workers?
14:21:49 [francois]
rich: we need a user interface right now.
14:21:59 [francois]
... I'd like it to work with workers.
14:22:12 [francois]
robin: if you manage the connection in the main thread, then it could pass on to workers, right?
14:22:26 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is on the call?
14:22:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Orange, Cathy, richt
14:22:30 [richt]
I like that approach Robin for getting this to work in Workers
14:22:48 [francois]
... is the endpoint information something you can pass on to something else? Is it clonable?
14:23:03 [francois]
josh: can it be guessed as well?
14:23:16 [richt]
i.e. the synthesized CORS white-listing applies to both the main context and any SAME-ORIGIN web workers that hang off that context
14:24:05 [richt]
s/white-listing applies to both/white-listing could be made to apply to both/
14:24:05 [francois]
[discussion about various intra-vein injections scenarios]
14:24:32 [francois]
robin: any other technical questions?
14:24:33 [robin]
14:26:46 [francois]
robin: is the model extensible to other mechanisms? I'd guess yes.
14:27:08 [francois]
rich: to be handled on a case by case basis. We took the two most obvious choices here.
14:28:07 [francois]
... Back to Web Introducer, I considered but did not include here the possibility to register a service.
14:28:17 [francois]
... Similar to introducer, but a little bit different.
14:28:50 [francois]
robin: do you think you could expand on it in an email?
14:29:05 [francois]
rich: sure, I don't think it should be put in the spec immediately.
14:30:28 [francois]
josh: one word on caution of repeated authorization. I don't want an API to register and to unregister.
14:30:56 [francois]
robin: in terms of next steps, do you want to check this in group's repository?
14:31:21 [Josh_Soref]
richt, for the spec.... "[Supplemental, NoInterfaceObject] " the "Supplemental" bit is obsolete (and absent from the current WebIDL spec)
14:31:34 [richt]
fwiw, there are similarities between the intended user experience between HTML5's registerProtocolHandler and this Service Discovery API.
14:31:36 [francois]
rich: I'm going to be away, and would prefer to let this slip a bit.
14:31:59 [francois]
robin: ok, thanks a lot rich, very good first stab at the problem.
14:32:15 [francois]
rich: thanks. I look forward to seeing other proposals.
14:32:31 [francois]
robin: any discussion on this with other browser vendors?
14:32:36 [francois]
rich: very briefly.
14:32:47 [francois]
... It fits browser vendor models as well as other models.
14:33:07 [francois]
... As I said, I'd like to isolate some work in DAP so that people can join.
14:33:25 [francois]
robin: going back to that, email tagging is efficient isolation for now?
14:33:33 [francois]
rich: yes, I think so.
14:33:50 [francois]
... Also a few people are allergic to meetings.
14:34:24 [richt]
s/to let this slip a bit./to let people discuss this on the mailing list and will be able to join those discussions after August 12th when I'm back/
14:34:28 [robin]
ACTION: Robin to create a wiki page with the list of tags
14:34:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-440 - Create a wiki page with the list of tags [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-07-27].
14:34:33 [Josh_Soref]
Is it possible for the lists to bounce untagged messages with a list of possible (used) tags?
14:34:35 [francois]
robin: ok. Maybe we should have a wiki page that lists tags.
14:35:11 [francois]
it's not!
14:36:33 [francois]
fjh: wondering if we could spend some time on new items in the charter.
14:36:40 [robin]
14:37:34 [francois]
Topic: Charter deliverables review
14:38:14 [francois]
fjh: Calendar, Contacts, Capture, Messaging, Network, we've done something
14:38:18 [robin]
14:38:25 [francois]
s/done something/discussed them already/
14:38:46 [francois]
fjh: vibration? System beeps? Application menus?
14:39:40 [francois]
... Next step on vibration?
14:40:08 [francois]
josh: for beep, just play an audio file, or ask people to define standard beep.
14:40:32 [francois]
... I think the audio tag is sufficient.
14:41:05 [francois]
bryan: Vibration and beeps come from BONDI. The idea was that there was no way to do that.
14:43:29 [francois]
josh: [mentioning problems with vibration]
14:44:29 [francois]
lgombos: it could be CSS actually.
14:44:32 [francois]
josh: good point.
14:45:30 [francois]
fjh: what if I want my IM app to give me a vibration upon notifications?
14:45:37 [francois]
lgombos: handled by notifications.
14:46:23 [francois]
robin: vibrate is simple to implement.
14:46:47 [francois]
josh: yes but I don't want to deal with permissions for this.
14:46:55 [francois]
robin: same as with audio. No permission with audio.
14:47:54 [francois]
fjh: agreed that vibration we may keep. Kind of agreed beep is not needed.
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14:49:13 [francois]
fjh: question is who's going to make a proposal on these specs?
14:52:38 [francois]
robin: looking at feedback on beep. Some support from Cécile but use cases handled by notifications.
14:52:54 [francois]
bryan: can you control the audio tag through script?
14:52:59 [francois]
all: yes.
14:53:15 [francois]
bryan: so you could use it to play a beep?
14:53:18 [francois]
josh: yes.
14:53:40 [francois]
robin: the only question was whether there was value in having a magic URL that points to the system beep.
14:55:27 [francois]
RESOLUTION: drop the API to manage systems beeps
14:56:16 [robin]
14:58:06 [francois]
robin: for application menus, [showing Paul's demo]
14:59:34 [francois]
josh: many browser are moving to real full screen, removing the menubar.
15:00:00 [francois]
robin: that's a user interface issue. It could be a ribbon if you want a ribbon.
15:00:53 [francois]
... There was a proposal that almost got sent to this working group that abstracts away the menus on various platforms. It could be a button, a top bar, a ribbon, something else..
15:00:57 [francois]
15:02:41 [robin]
15:03:38 [francois]
francois: how much is already covered through a declarative approach.
15:04:07 [francois]
robin: most of it, but there are issues with e.g. using rel. See my blog.
15:06:54 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate francois
15:07:01 [robin]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:07:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Orange, Cathy, richt
15:07:02 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is on the call?
15:07:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Orange, Cathy, richt
15:07:09 [robin]
Zakim, drop everyone
15:07:09 [Zakim]
sorry, robin, I do not see a party named 'everyone'
15:07:16 [Zakim]
15:07:17 [robin]
zakim, drop Orange
15:07:17 [Zakim]
Orange is being disconnected
15:07:19 [Zakim]
15:07:20 [Zakim]
15:07:21 [Zakim]
UW_DAP(WGF2F)2:00AM has ended
15:07:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were richt, Cathy, Orange
15:12:58 [robin]
15:27:52 [Marcos]
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17:16:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dap