14:59:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webevents
14:59:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/19-webevents-irc
14:59:54 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
15:00:05 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:05 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:00:05 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0003.html
15:00:05 <ArtB> Date: 19 July 2011
15:00:05 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:00:06 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
15:01:12 <smaug> but Zakim bridge does say anything..
15:01:46 <smaug> I've always called to us number
15:01:50 <Zakim> +??P31
15:01:59 <Sangwhan> zakim, ??P31 is me
15:01:59 <Zakim> +Sangwhan; got it
15:02:43 <Zakim> +??P32
15:02:49 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #webevents
15:03:10 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Olli_Pettay, Sangwhan_Moon
15:03:18 <ArtB> Present+ Cathy_Chan
15:03:21 <smaug> Zakim, ??P32 is Olli_Pettay
15:03:21 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:03:31 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Petta
15:03:31 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:03:33 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:03:33 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:03:37 <Zakim> +Cathy
15:03:51 <mbrubeck> Zakim, mbrubeck is really Matt_Brubeck
15:03:51 <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck; got it
15:03:59 <mbrubeck> Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck
15:03:59 <Zakim> ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck
15:05:12 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak Agenda
15:05:19 <ArtB> AB: I submitted the draft agenda yesterday ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0003.html ). It is the same agenda as the June 28 draft agenda and that meeting was canceled.
15:06:15 <ArtB> AB: without Laszlo nor Doug, we will probably skip their issues i.e. Issue-16 and Issue-17
15:06:29 <ArtB> AB: any change requests?
15:06:39 <ArtB> Topic: Announcements
15:06:44 <ArtB> AB: Any short announcements?
15:06:57 <mbrubeck> https://market.android.com/details?id=org.mozilla.firefox_beta supports touch events
15:07:02 <ArtB> MB: FF beta on Android now supports Touch Events
15:07:10 <ArtB> AB: great news Matt!
15:07:28 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-3: Click event target after DOM mutation during touchstart;
15:07:35 <ArtB> AB: Issue-3 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/3 ) has Action-52 for Matt ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/52 ). We last discussed this on June 14 ( http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-webevents-minutes.html#item03 ).
15:08:06 <ArtB> MB: I think we have consensus on this
15:08:11 <ArtB> ... I just need to write the text
15:08:17 <ArtB> ... and then send it for review
15:08:28 <ArtB> AB: is that on target for this week?
15:08:29 <ArtB> MB: yes
15:08:29 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:08:46 <ArtB> AB: so after you check in a change, will you notify the group?
15:08:50 <ArtB> MB: yes
15:08:56 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
15:09:35 <ArtB> Topic: FF Beta of Touch Events
15:09:41 <ArtB> DS: what is supported?
15:09:49 <ArtB> MB: supports most of the attributes
15:09:58 <ArtB> ... does not support touchleave and touchenter
15:10:26 <ArtB> ... supports identifiedTouch method
15:10:36 <ArtB> ... think it is the first browser to support that
15:10:51 <mbrubeck> The current version tracks only a single touch point at a time; multitouch will come later.
15:10:54 <ArtB> DS: what about touch area?
15:11:05 <ArtB> ... it doesn't support that?
15:11:13 <ArtB> MB: that's correct we don't support that
15:11:26 <ArtB> ... but we intend to support it
15:11:43 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-16: Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity
15:11:50 <ArtB> AB: Issue-16 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/16 ) has Action-53 for Doug ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/53 ). We last discussed this on June 14 ( http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-webevents-minutes.html#item04 ).
15:12:39 <ArtB> AB: Doug, what's the status?
15:12:52 <ArtB> DS: I thought someone else agreed to take this
15:12:59 <ArtB> ... I will submit something today
15:13:30 <ArtB> AB: ok; great
15:13:48 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-17: Page X and Y parameters to createTouch
15:13:55 <ArtB> AB: Issue-17 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/17 ) has Action-55 for Laszlo ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/55 ). We last discussed this on June 14 ( http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-webevents-minutes.html#item05 ).
15:14:17 <ArtB> AB: but Laszlo isn't here today
15:14:23 <ArtB> ... so we should probably skip it
15:14:36 <ArtB> AB: All: Do we feel this must be addressed in v1 i.e. block Last Call Working Draft?
15:14:58 <ArtB> AB: broadly speaking, this issue is about WebKit compatibility. However, when I looked at the minutes, the specific sub-issues are unclear, possibly because the title of Issue-17 isn't quite right.
15:15:32 <ArtB> AB: which Interface and method(s) is this about? TouchEvent.initTouchEvent() and/or DocumentTouch.createTouch()? 
15:15:50 <ArtB> AB: which parameter sets are we unsure about pageX/Y, clientX/Y, screenX/Y?
15:16:46 <ArtB> MB: there is an issue re webkit diffs with create method
15:17:00 <Zakim> -Sangwhan
15:17:14 <ArtB> DS: perhaps we should break it into separate issues
15:17:24 <ArtB> AB: that's fine with me
15:17:26 <Zakim> +??P7
15:17:36 <Sangwhan> zakim, ??P7 is me
15:17:36 <Zakim> +Sangwhan; got it
15:17:58 <ArtB> AB: what is the first sub issue here?
15:18:10 <ArtB> MB: the old issue can be closed
15:18:28 <ArtB> ... the new issue is about parameters to initTouchEvent
15:19:01 <Sangwhan> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-unassigned/2011-May/326134.html
15:19:14 <Sangwhan> https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/dom/TouchEvent.idl?rev=52113#L40
15:19:27 <Sangwhan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/tip/touchevents.html#touchevent-interface
15:19:50 <ArtB> [ Matt does some research ... ]
15:20:09 <ArtB> SM: there has been some related discussion on the webkit list
15:20:16 <Sangwhan> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60612
15:20:25 <mbrubeck> WebKit has screenX/Y and clientX/Y parameters in the initTouchEvent method, while the W3C spec does not; how are they used, and should they be added to the W3C spec (or removed from WebKit)?
15:20:28 <smaug> hmm, http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/UserExperience/Reference/TouchEventClassReference/TouchEvent/TouchEvent.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009358 is strange. Apple's touch events take all sorts of coordinates as parameters to initToucEvent, but I can't see how one can access those values
15:21:16 <ArtB> MB: would be good if we could get those webkit people involved with our discussion
15:21:20 <ArtB> DS: agree
15:21:35 <ArtB> MB: we can also discuss this in the webkit bug
15:21:54 <ArtB> AB: my preference would be to discuss this on public-webevents
15:23:14 <ArtB> AB: draft issue title is: align initTouchEvent parameters with webkit?
15:23:37 <ArtB> ISSUE: align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit
15:23:37 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-19 - Align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/19/edit .
15:24:13 <ArtB> AB: so should we close I-17 then?
15:24:22 <ArtB> MB: yes, I think the original issue is resolved
15:24:31 <ArtB> AB: any objections to closing I-17?
15:24:33 <ArtB> [ None ]
15:24:49 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow close Issue-17 with poiner to 19-July-2011 minutes
15:24:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - Close Issue-17 with poiner to 19-July-2011 minutes [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-07-26].
15:26:01 <ArtB> AB: is there another issue here?
15:26:07 <ArtB> MB: no, I think we got it
15:26:10 <ArtB> DS: agree
15:26:24 <ArtB> Topic: Issue-18: The spec needs more examples related to the various lists
15:26:31 <ArtB> AB: Issue-18 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/18 ) has Action-57 for Sangwhan ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/57 ). We last discussed this on June 21 ( http://www.w3.org/2011/06/21-webevents-minutes.html#item06 ).
15:26:55 <Sangwhan> http://pastebin.com/D7LUCfev
15:26:56 <ArtB> SM: I wrote some preliminary stuff
15:27:07 <ArtB> ... not sure if this is what we want
15:27:17 <ArtB> ... was focusing on the different lists
15:27:28 <ArtB> ... I could use some help with example code
15:27:38 <ArtB> ... and if anyone has suggestions, they would be welcome
15:28:41 <ArtB> DS: I'm skimming on it
15:29:25 <ArtB> AB: this seems to be a use case approach
15:29:41 <ArtB> ... i.e. here's how you do X, here's how you do Z
15:29:47 <ArtB> SM: yes, that's right
15:29:54 <ArtB> DS: I think this is good as is
15:30:07 <ArtB> SM: there are some additional properties I could cover
15:30:19 <ArtB> DS: for a first example, I think this is fine
15:30:25 <ArtB> ... we can always add more later
15:30:50 <ArtB> MB: would like to write a narrative about how events are generated if a user uses multi touch
15:31:02 <ArtB> SM: yes, something like that would be nice
15:31:34 <ArtB> ... I don't recall any interesting graphics
15:31:48 <ArtB> DS: there is some precedence for that
15:31:54 <ArtB> AB: oh, yes, that would be welcome
15:32:12 <ArtB> SM: ok; then I'll create some more detailed example as Matt suggested
15:32:36 <ArtB> AB: should be encourage SM to checkin what he has?
15:32:39 <ArtB> DS: yes
15:32:43 <ArtB> MB: ok
15:32:51 <ArtB> AB: please do Sangwhan
15:32:53 <Zakim> -Sangwhan
15:33:08 <Zakim> +??P1
15:33:11 <Sangwhan> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:33:11 <Zakim> +Sangwhan; got it
15:33:37 <ArtB> AB: my proposal is that I close Issue-18 after Sanghwhan's checkin
15:33:56 <ArtB> ... and then any other non-normative examples can be checked in at any stage
15:34:00 <Sangwhan> s/hwhan/whan/
15:34:15 <ArtB> AB: any objections to closing I-18 after SM's checkin?
15:34:18 <ArtB> [ None ]
15:34:41 <ArtB> Topic: Preparing Touch Events v1 spec for Last Call WD
15:34:52 <ArtB> AB: Doug has Action-56 "Update the Touch Event spec to use markup to facilitate test case extraction" ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/56 ). 
15:35:20 <ArtB> ... I believe we want this before splitting the spec into v1 and v2
15:35:29 <ArtB> DS: I did some work on this
15:35:46 <ArtB> ... I spent too much time with ReSpec
15:36:05 <ArtB> ... we won't publish with Respec scripts active
15:36:22 <ArtB> ... So I am going to edit it manually without ReSpec javascript
15:36:50 <ArtB> ... Matt has the action to split the spec into v1 and v2
15:37:08 <ArtB> ... I apologize for the delay
15:37:18 <ArtB> MB: I can start on the v1 and v2 split
15:37:41 <ArtB> DS: not sure about the best way fwd
15:37:49 <ArtB> ... should I markup the spec before the split?
15:38:06 <ArtB> MB: if you are ready to start adding testing markup
15:38:19 <ArtB> ... think it would be easier if that was done before the v1/v2 split
15:38:48 <ArtB> DS: OK; I will add it this week
15:39:09 <ArtB> AB: how many are there?
15:39:20 <ArtB> DS: think there about 40 testable assertions
15:39:39 <ArtB> ... we can get real granular here 
15:39:46 <ArtB> ... and that can start to rat-hole
15:40:44 <ArtB> ... Each testable assert will have 1) and ID; and 2) a class that says which "Conformance Class" it meets
15:41:03 <ArtB> ... e.g. UA conformance; Author conformance; etc.
15:41:40 <ArtB> ... Don't want to mark absolutely everything
15:41:53 <ArtB> ... and then we can refine the approach as we go
15:42:01 <ArtB> ... and perhaps be more detailed in v2
15:42:14 <ArtB> DS: has anyone started writing tests?
15:42:25 <ArtB> MB: we have written some tests
15:42:35 <ArtB> ... want them to be usable for Touch Events spec
15:42:44 <ArtB> ... I have checked in some tests already
15:42:49 <ArtB> SM: we have about 20 tests
15:42:59 <ArtB> ... they match the spec rather than Webkit impl
15:43:13 <ArtB> ... expect the WG can use them
15:43:20 <ArtB> ... but they will need some cleanup first
15:43:56 <ArtB> AB: so it sound like Doug will have his markup changes by the end of this week
15:44:01 <ArtB> DS: yes, that is my plan
15:45:56 <ArtB> AB: so my conclusion is that Issue-19 is the only piece of work we need to close
15:46:13 <ArtB> ... and that we are getting close to LC
15:46:32 <ArtB> Topic: Any other Business
15:46:43 <Sangwhan> http://www.khronos.org/news/categories/C255
15:46:46 <ArtB> SM: the Khronos Group is working on Stream Input
15:47:08 <ArtB> ... seems to be in line with what we want to do in our High Level spec
15:47:21 <ArtB> AB: I wasn't aware of this work
15:47:34 <ArtB> SM: I am in contact with the person behind this
15:47:57 <ArtB> ... he seems to be interested in getting these specs to interoperate
15:48:11 <ArtB> ... I hope to have some indepth discussions
15:48:24 <ArtB> DS: this looks related to W3C's MMI work
15:48:30 <ArtB> ... especially their EMMA spec
15:48:35 <Zakim> -Sangwhan
15:48:45 <ArtB> ... which is used for HTML Speech
15:48:48 <Zakim> +??P1
15:48:55 <Sangwhan> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:48:55 <Zakim> +Sangwhan; got it
15:49:11 <ArtB> OP: EMMA is a container for any speech recognition results
15:49:18 <ArtB> DS: yes, we should talk to them
15:49:26 <ArtB> ... especially if it is implemented in browsers
15:49:31 <ArtB> SM: yes, that's the point
15:49:38 <ArtB> ... I think they haven't started much
15:49:43 <ArtB> ... thus the earlier the better
15:50:11 <ArtB> AB: that's probably another good reason for us to move v1 to LC
15:51:43 <ArtB> SM: other WG members are involved with this Khronos effort
15:52:00 <ArtB> DS: agree we don't want fragmentation
15:52:20 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow follow-up this Khronos Stream Input work
15:52:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Follow-up this Khronos Stream Input work [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-07-26].
15:52:46 <ArtB> AB: others should read their doc too
15:53:02 <ArtB> DS: there is other stream-type work going on at the W3C now
15:53:08 <ArtB> ... e.g. the WRTC WG
15:53:37 <ArtB> AB: what about a meeting next week?
15:54:17 <ArtB> AB: plan on a meeting July 26
15:54:35 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
15:54:39 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
15:54:40 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:54:42 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:54:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/19-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:54:42 <Zakim> -Sangwhan
15:54:44 <Zakim> -Cathy
15:54:45 <Zakim> -ArtB
15:54:58 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
15:54:59 <Zakim> RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended
15:55:01 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.792.aaaa, ArtB, Sangwhan, Olli_Pettay, Cathy, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers
16:01:45 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:01:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webevents
16:01:49 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
16:01:49 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/19-webevents-actions.rdf :
16:01:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow close Issue-17 with poiner to 19-July-2011 minutes [1]
16:01:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/19-webevents-irc#T15-24-49
16:01:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow follow-up this Khronos Stream Input work [2]
16:01:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/19-webevents-irc#T15-52-20