was informative, and the fact that you could display titles as a tooltip was just a way of dealing with it 20:17:43 <heycam> ... so having tooltip-specific behaviour on <title> didn't seem right 20:17:59 <heycam> ... Olaf pointed out that 1.2T talked more about tooltips 20:18:25 <heycam> DS: I think we need to have some standardised behaviour around tooltips 20:18:31 <heycam> ... I don't care if it's <title> or not 20:18:39 <heycam> ... are you saying that we shouldn't have tooltips around <title>? 20:19:11 <heycam> VH: we shouldn't assume that titles were exclusively for tooltips 20:19:16 <heycam> DS: sure, I agree with that 20:19:33 <heycam> ED: the 1.2T spec suggests to use role="tooltip" for title elements that are supposed to be tooltips 20:19:48 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#uiTitleDescBehavior 20:20:57 <heycam> DS: it's a feature people expect 20:21:25 <heycam> "The title attribute represents advisory information for the element, such as would be appropriate for a tooltip." 20:21:52 <heycam> (that's in the HTML spec) 20:22:14 <heycam> DS: it seems the best would be to use a SHOULD to display it as a tooltip 20:22:21 <ed> Present+ doug, tav 20:24:20 <heycam> CM: I think for the issue that was brought up, it should just do the same thing as in HTML if you have a descendent element with title="" (empty string) on it 20:25:26 <heycam> ISSUE: Resolve the <title> tooltip issue for SVG2 20:25:26 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2414 - Resolve the <title> tooltip issue for SVG2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2414/edit . 20:26:03 <heycam> DS: I came up with an algorithm for determining the title of an element: every element has a title. the title text comes from its immediate child <title>, or its closest ancestor's. 20:26:10 <heycam> ... I think that's the only consistent one I can see being applied 20:28:29 <heycam> ... we could ask the public list to review the text from 1.1/1.2T, get use cases and requirements from accessibility and other people 20:29:21 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to ask the public list and a11y people about title/tooltips 20:29:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3065 - Ask the public list and a11y people about title/tooltips [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21]. 20:29:52 <heycam> ISSUE: Specify what an empty <title> element means in SVG2 20:29:53 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2415 - Specify what an empty <title> element means in SVG2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2415/edit . 20:30:08 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to make a proposal for ISSUE-2415, empty <title> element 20:30:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3066 - Make a proposal for ISSUE-2415, empty <title> element [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21]. 20:30:33 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to reply to Klaus on www-svg about empty <title> 20:30:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3067 - Reply to Klaus on www-svg about empty <title> [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21]. 20:31:35 <heycam> Topic: Status of SVG 1.1 Second Edition publication 20:31:40 <heycam> ED: do we need to do anything there? 20:31:54 <heycam> DS: Chris or I need to write up a Director's decision based on the feedback 20:32:05 <heycam> ... did you guys see the feedback from Innovimax? 20:32:06 <heycam> ED: yes 20:32:11 <heycam> DS: have we resolved what to do about that? 20:32:20 <heycam> CM: I don't think we've discussed it 20:32:31 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/svg11-2011/results 20:33:46 <heycam> ED: there's no RNG for 1.1, but there's nothing stopping us publishing one later if we want 20:34:33 <heycam> CM: I agree, there may be that experimental RNG on www.w3.org, but we weren't intending to publish 1.1F2 with one 20:34:46 <heycam> DS: yes, if we do publish one going forward we don't need it to be linked from the spec 20:35:22 <heycam> DS: plh agreed with me that these kinds of comments were made too late; they should have been made in PR or LC 20:36:33 <heycam> ... we should say that the rng on www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/ is out of date, and it would be better to wait for murata-san's updated rng 20:36:38 <heycam> ED: he also comments about references 20:36:50 <heycam> ... we have discussed this previously and rejected them 20:37:20 <heycam> DS: I know that in the past certain things had changed from CSS 2.0 to 2.1, so we didn't think it was appropriate to change the reference 20:37:30 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Feb/0034.html 20:37:36 <heycam> ... now that 2.1 is a REC, there's nothing stopping us maturity-wise 20:38:40 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/refs.html 20:38:53 <heycam> ED: we do already link to CSS 2.1 from the references section 20:39:06 <heycam> DS: he lists two or three references, what are those? 20:39:16 <heycam> ED: SMIL 3.0, I think it's not so easy to reference that 20:39:30 <heycam> ... MathML 3.0, he wants an informative reference 20:40:16 <heycam> DS: SVG 1.1 Second Edition only made certain changes, and it wasn't evaluated entirely in terms of references 20:40:30 <heycam> ... we couldn't confidently change some of these references 20:40:37 <heycam> ED: we could do the MathML one, it's informative 20:40:46 <heycam> DS: yeah, so changing that one to MathML 3.0 would be OK 20:41:27 <heycam> CM: so we reference both SMIL Animation (normative) and SMIL 3.0 (informative). what do we reference SMIL 3.0 for? 20:41:32 <heycam> ED: just an informative note, I think 20:42:20 <heycam> DS: I'll leave it to you Cameron to update any references you think are safe, and keep me updated 20:42:45 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to investigate reference updates per Innovimax's comment 20:42:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3068 - Investigate reference updates per Innovimax's comment [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-21]. 20:42:53 <heycam> ED: I made some tweaks to the test suite, reference image updates 20:42:57 <heycam> ... but I think it's in a good state for publication 20:43:21 <heycam> CM: did you look any further into how to publish the test suite? 20:43:40 <heycam> ED: no, and I'd like to verify that the test suite package is generated correctly 20:44:12 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to look into the testsuite package generation/publication 20:44:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3069 - Look into the testsuite package generation/publication [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-07-21]. 20:44:39 <heycam> CM: what is the timing of being able to publish? 20:44:53 <heycam> DS: I think we should be able to publish next Thursday 20:45:31 <heycam> Topic: Interest in SVG Parameters 20:45:38 <heycam> DS: I never sent off my email about that 20:45:48 <heycam> ... I intend on responding to Andreas and others to tell them what our plan is 20:46:00 <heycam> ... it was interesting that Andreas pointed out another implementation out there, some GIS thing 20:46:33 <heycam> ... I'm scheduled to meet with an expert on URIs/HTTPs etc. to talk about the syntax 20:47:06 <heycam> ... one of the problems with Params was that we never settled on a URL syntax, you can't use a question mark since that would mean resources aren't cached 20:47:25 <heycam> ... so I'll talk to him about better syntax for that 20:47:39 <heycam> ... there might be conflict between our syntax and the media fragments 20:47:55 <heycam> ... (Yves Lafon) 20:48:30 <heycam> ... I'm going to try to have an updated ED for the F2F 20:48:50 <heycam> ... so is this meant to be an SVG2 feature? or a separate module? I don't really care one way or the other. 20:49:10 <heycam> CM: not sure 20:49:30 <heycam> DS: we could leave it as a separate spec for now and consider folding it into SVG2 later 20:49:38 <heycam> ... that way people can implement it now 20:50:09 <heycam> Topic: textPath method="stretch" 20:51:06 <heycam> ED: it's being proposed that for textPath method="stretch" you warp the glyphs, Israel used the term "offset mapping" 20:51:13 <heycam> ... so making the glyphs rubbery and stretch them along the path 20:51:38 <heycam> ... it's not exactly what opera does at the moment; we don't stretch it out fully like that 20:51:55 <heycam> VH: but opera does some stretching? 20:51:58 <heycam> ED: yes 20:54:15 <heycam> (opera doesn't do an exact scaling of the glyphs, it stretches it into a trapezoid or something) 20:54:29 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#TextPathElementMethodAttribute 20:54:31 <heycam> VH: so he wants silverlight-like effects? 20:54:36 <heycam> ED: not quite 20:55:05 <heycam> ... he made a couple of different examples 20:55:10 <heycam> ... they're pretty compelling 20:55:23 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_ar6.svg 20:55:39 <heycam> ... Opera wouldn't behave like this 20:55:48 <heycam> ... if you take the "Z" character, it wouldn't be following the inner circle 20:55:58 <heycam> ... it would be positioned on the mid line of the glyph, a straight baseline 20:56:07 <heycam> ... and the top line of the character wouldn't follow the circle either 20:56:20 <heycam> TB: I was playing with some ligatures with that, it looks a bit ugly 20:56:24 <heycam> ... if you don't follow the curve 20:56:42 <heycam> ... if you have the "ffi", if all three parts of that are on a straight line, it doesn't look good 20:57:21 <heycam> VH: is he proposing a solution that explains exactly the processing to do this? 20:57:34 <heycam> ED: I think sort of, but it's not 100% clear in all parts 20:57:57 <heycam> ... there are some aspects of this proposal that aren't clear, like how rotate="" would affect this 20:58:26 <heycam> ... I pointed out a few things, where e.g. if you have a very sharp corner, the behaviour in such cases is not fully defined either 20:58:37 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_linejoin_round.svg 20:58:49 <heycam> ... ^ there is an example of a sharp corner 21:00:03 <heycam> DS: if we are going to change text path, maybe we might have an attribute that changes modes of how textPath behaves 21:00:22 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves.svg 21:00:22 <heycam> ... we have the current backwards compat mode, and we could opt in to this new functionality 21:00:31 <heycam> ED: also being able to specify two curves to stretch between 21:00:36 <heycam> ... that's similar to the silverlight one I think 21:00:46 <heycam> ... so it's following the curve and not using straight lines for the top/bottom of the glyphs 21:01:18 <heycam> CM: it's a short distance between this and doing it for general shapes 21:01:32 <heycam> DS: we did talk about a "shapePath", where it treats individual shapes as glyphs 21:02:05 <heycam> VH: these documents are pregenerated, do we know how he generates it? 21:02:22 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_in_out.svg (that's the non-bendy B) 21:02:37 <heycam> CM: if he could furnish us with some algorithms that would be a good way forward 21:02:48 <heycam> VH: is he a Member? 21:02:58 <heycam> CM: no, a public 21:03:49 <heycam> VH: I would be concerned if he shared them and wasn't a member 21:04:00 <heycam> DS: we do allow non-members to give IPR commitments 21:04:19 <heycam> TB: it should be pretty easy to duplicate 21:04:59 <heycam> ACTION: Tav to experiment with glyph warping text path stuff 21:04:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3070 - Experiment with glyph warping text path stuff [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-07-21]. 21:05:33 <heycam> TB: I think Inkscape already has something like this for a general path 21:06:00 <heycam> VH: is it just done with manipulating control points, or does it need to subdivide curves? 21:06:04 <heycam> TB: just control points 21:06:09 <heycam> ... we have some extensions 21:07:49 <vhardy> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_B.svg 21:08:48 <vhardy> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves_B.svg 21:08:56 <tbah> http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-EnvelopeDeformation.html 21:09:52 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg 21:14:47 <heycam> (discussion about inkscape live path effects) 21:14:57 <heycam> VH: did Israel have a concretre proposal, or was it more about functionality? 21:15:01 <heycam> ED: more functionality 21:15:17 <heycam> ... not sure if he wanted something like live path effects, or just wanting the simple things to work 21:15:48 <heycam> CM: how might we move forward with this, aside from saying "that's cool"? 21:16:03 <heycam> VH: for anything like this to go into the spec, we need a real proposal 21:16:06 <heycam> ... either we do that or we ask him to do it 21:17:16 <heycam> ED: it would nice to be able to apply this to any shape 21:17:20 <heycam> ... not just text, textPath 21:17:33 <heycam> ... so it'd be nice if we had something like live path effects in SVG 21:17:48 <heycam> VH: should we have something like a rubber band effect? fairly generic, something that would apply to text or shapes 21:18:19 <heycam> ED: I think one of the use cases mentioned there was railroad tracks, labels on streets, etc. 21:21:00 <heycam> CM: what I want to know is how difficult it is to specify and compute 21:21:13 <heycam> ... it's clearly a high value effect, so if we can do it without too much difficulty, I think we should 21:22:15 <heycam> VH: we respond saying we could put it in the SVG2 requirements document, ask him to join the group help specify it 21:22:23 <heycam> ED: yes, if he has algorithms spec text to contribute 21:22:29 <heycam> ... writing up use cases for the path effects would be nice to have on the wiki 21:22:38 <heycam> VH: we have a page for the requirements document, for 2.0? 21:23:25 <heycam> CM: I think we never came to a decision on scope for 2.0 21:23:31 <heycam> ... there was a discussion on the list 21:23:38 <heycam> ... a month or two back 21:23:51 <heycam> DS: I'd said to wait for the Community group process to be up and running 21:23:56 <heycam> ... and use that to help scope the 2.0 work 21:24:39 <heycam> ... the infrastructure won't be there, though 21:25:10 <heycam> ... are we going to get people to mail to the list? it's work to collect that. 21:25:19 <heycam> VH: traditionally you would have a requirements document, an editor for that document 21:25:23 <heycam> ... we could do it on the wiki 21:25:43 <heycam> ... and then multiple people could collect things from the list to the wiki 21:26:41 <heycam> CM: I think we need a page like that for ourselves, at least, whether or not we use it for collecting requirements from the public 21:27:23 <heycam> VH: we can start a wiki page, that's a zero cost thing, make this the first entry 21:27:41 <heycam> ... during the meeting we could have someone put things on the page as we decide on certain features going in there 21:27:53 <heycam> DS: but that's only stuff that we talk about, not from the public 21:29:06 <heycam> VH: we could do it like today. we discuss things that come up on the list, and during the meeting we talk about adding it to the req document. 21:29:47 <heycam> DS: we could split it into high priority items, medium, low, suggested 21:33:34 <vhardy> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements 21:35:13 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended 21:35:14 <Zakim> Attendees were 21:35:23 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes 21:35:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html heycam 23:10:59 <homata_> homata_ has joined #svg 23:32:09 <karl> karl has joined #svg

19:57:50 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:57:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-irc 19:57:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:57:54 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:57:54 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 19:57:55 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:57:55 Date: 14 July 2011 19:58:30 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started 19:58:35 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended 19:58:36 Attendees were 19:58:43 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started 19:59:16 vhardy has joined #svg 19:59:27 Zakim, who is on the call? 19:59:27 On the phone I see no one 20:00:12 Zakim, this is SVG 20:00:12 heycam, this was already GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM 20:00:13 ok, heycam; that matches GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM 20:00:29 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:00:29 On the phone I see no one 20:01:35 tbah has joined #svg 20:02:44 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:02:44 On the phone I see no one 20:04:14 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0018.html 20:04:26 Present: erik, vincent, cameron 20:04:53 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:04:53 On the phone I see no one 20:05:47 Regrets: chris 20:06:35 Scribe: Cameron 20:06:38 ScribeNick: heycam 20:07:06 Topic: API for Media Resources 1.0 20:07:12 ED: spec requesting feedback form us 20:07:16 s/form/from/ 20:07:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0034.html 20:07:51 ED: it's about different interfaces for getting information about media resources 20:07:55 ... a javascript api 20:08:29 VH: are there implementations of the api? 20:08:37 ED: good question, it's a last call working draft 20:08:44 VH: second last call 20:09:17 ED: is there interest in reviewing the spec? 20:09:41 VH: I think at least someone should take a look and report back to us 20:09:51 ... a while back we were trying to get progress events in svg2, so it sounds related 20:09:55 ... or is it for metadata? 20:09:59 ED: it seems to be more fore metadata 20:10:03 VH: not for the loading process? 20:10:12 ED: doesn't look like it, but I haven't done a length review of the document 20:10:43 CM: I'd be curious to see what the HTMLWG thinks of it, given they are probably mainly thinking of HTML video 20:11:04 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/#Implementa 20:12:16 ED: end of the review period is 7 August 20:13:23 VH: shall we put it on the F2F agenda and see if anyone's had a chance to look at it before then? 20:14:26 ... I've put it on the agenda 20:15:22 ACTION: Erik to mail the group list asking for review of the mediaont-api spec 20:15:22 Created ACTION-3064 - Mail the group list asking for review of the mediaont-api spec [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-07-21]. 20:15:53 Topic: empty title elements 20:15:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0004.html 20:16:46 VH: someone pointed out the differences between SVG Tiny 1.2 and 1.1 20:17:34 ... I think the argument I made was that was informative, and the fact that you could display titles as a tooltip was just a way of dealing with it 20:17:43 <heycam> ... so having tooltip-specific behaviour on <title> didn't seem right 20:17:59 <heycam> ... Olaf pointed out that 1.2T talked more about tooltips 20:18:25 <heycam> DS: I think we need to have some standardised behaviour around tooltips 20:18:31 <heycam> ... I don't care if it's <title> or not 20:18:39 <heycam> ... are you saying that we shouldn't have tooltips around <title>? 20:19:11 <heycam> VH: we shouldn't assume that titles were exclusively for tooltips 20:19:16 <heycam> DS: sure, I agree with that 20:19:33 <heycam> ED: the 1.2T spec suggests to use role="tooltip" for title elements that are supposed to be tooltips 20:19:48 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#uiTitleDescBehavior 20:20:57 <heycam> DS: it's a feature people expect 20:21:25 <heycam> "The title attribute represents advisory information for the element, such as would be appropriate for a tooltip." 20:21:52 <heycam> (that's in the HTML spec) 20:22:14 <heycam> DS: it seems the best would be to use a SHOULD to display it as a tooltip 20:22:21 <ed> Present+ doug, tav 20:24:20 <heycam> CM: I think for the issue that was brought up, it should just do the same thing as in HTML if you have a descendent element with title="" (empty string) on it 20:25:26 <heycam> ISSUE: Resolve the <title> tooltip issue for SVG2 20:25:26 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2414 - Resolve the <title> tooltip issue for SVG2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2414/edit . 20:26:03 <heycam> DS: I came up with an algorithm for determining the title of an element: every element has a title. the title text comes from its immediate child <title>, or its closest ancestor's. 20:26:10 <heycam> ... I think that's the only consistent one I can see being applied 20:28:29 <heycam> ... we could ask the public list to review the text from 1.1/1.2T, get use cases and requirements from accessibility and other people 20:29:21 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to ask the public list and a11y people about title/tooltips 20:29:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3065 - Ask the public list and a11y people about title/tooltips [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21]. 20:29:52 <heycam> ISSUE: Specify what an empty <title> element means in SVG2 20:29:53 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2415 - Specify what an empty <title> element means in SVG2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2415/edit . 20:30:08 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to make a proposal for ISSUE-2415, empty <title> element 20:30:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3066 - Make a proposal for ISSUE-2415, empty <title> element [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21]. 20:30:33 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to reply to Klaus on www-svg about empty <title> 20:30:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3067 - Reply to Klaus on www-svg about empty <title> [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21]. 20:31:35 <heycam> Topic: Status of SVG 1.1 Second Edition publication 20:31:40 <heycam> ED: do we need to do anything there? 20:31:54 <heycam> DS: Chris or I need to write up a Director's decision based on the feedback 20:32:05 <heycam> ... did you guys see the feedback from Innovimax? 20:32:06 <heycam> ED: yes 20:32:11 <heycam> DS: have we resolved what to do about that? 20:32:20 <heycam> CM: I don't think we've discussed it 20:32:31 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/svg11-2011/results 20:33:46 <heycam> ED: there's no RNG for 1.1, but there's nothing stopping us publishing one later if we want 20:34:33 <heycam> CM: I agree, there may be that experimental RNG on www.w3.org, but we weren't intending to publish 1.1F2 with one 20:34:46 <heycam> DS: yes, if we do publish one going forward we don't need it to be linked from the spec 20:35:22 <heycam> DS: plh agreed with me that these kinds of comments were made too late; they should have been made in PR or LC 20:36:33 <heycam> ... we should say that the rng on www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/ is out of date, and it would be better to wait for murata-san's updated rng 20:36:38 <heycam> ED: he also comments about references 20:36:50 <heycam> ... we have discussed this previously and rejected them 20:37:20 <heycam> DS: I know that in the past certain things had changed from CSS 2.0 to 2.1, so we didn't think it was appropriate to change the reference 20:37:30 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Feb/0034.html 20:37:36 <heycam> ... now that 2.1 is a REC, there's nothing stopping us maturity-wise 20:38:40 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/refs.html 20:38:53 <heycam> ED: we do already link to CSS 2.1 from the references section 20:39:06 <heycam> DS: he lists two or three references, what are those? 20:39:16 <heycam> ED: SMIL 3.0, I think it's not so easy to reference that 20:39:30 <heycam> ... MathML 3.0, he wants an informative reference 20:40:16 <heycam> DS: SVG 1.1 Second Edition only made certain changes, and it wasn't evaluated entirely in terms of references 20:40:30 <heycam> ... we couldn't confidently change some of these references 20:40:37 <heycam> ED: we could do the MathML one, it's informative 20:40:46 <heycam> DS: yeah, so changing that one to MathML 3.0 would be OK 20:41:27 <heycam> CM: so we reference both SMIL Animation (normative) and SMIL 3.0 (informative). what do we reference SMIL 3.0 for? 20:41:32 <heycam> ED: just an informative note, I think 20:42:20 <heycam> DS: I'll leave it to you Cameron to update any references you think are safe, and keep me updated 20:42:45 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to investigate reference updates per Innovimax's comment 20:42:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3068 - Investigate reference updates per Innovimax's comment [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-21]. 20:42:53 <heycam> ED: I made some tweaks to the test suite, reference image updates 20:42:57 <heycam> ... but I think it's in a good state for publication 20:43:21 <heycam> CM: did you look any further into how to publish the test suite? 20:43:40 <heycam> ED: no, and I'd like to verify that the test suite package is generated correctly 20:44:12 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to look into the testsuite package generation/publication 20:44:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3069 - Look into the testsuite package generation/publication [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-07-21]. 20:44:39 <heycam> CM: what is the timing of being able to publish? 20:44:53 <heycam> DS: I think we should be able to publish next Thursday 20:45:31 <heycam> Topic: Interest in SVG Parameters 20:45:38 <heycam> DS: I never sent off my email about that 20:45:48 <heycam> ... I intend on responding to Andreas and others to tell them what our plan is 20:46:00 <heycam> ... it was interesting that Andreas pointed out another implementation out there, some GIS thing 20:46:33 <heycam> ... I'm scheduled to meet with an expert on URIs/HTTPs etc. to talk about the syntax 20:47:06 <heycam> ... one of the problems with Params was that we never settled on a URL syntax, you can't use a question mark since that would mean resources aren't cached 20:47:25 <heycam> ... so I'll talk to him about better syntax for that 20:47:39 <heycam> ... there might be conflict between our syntax and the media fragments 20:47:55 <heycam> ... (Yves Lafon) 20:48:30 <heycam> ... I'm going to try to have an updated ED for the F2F 20:48:50 <heycam> ... so is this meant to be an SVG2 feature? or a separate module? I don't really care one way or the other. 20:49:10 <heycam> CM: not sure 20:49:30 <heycam> DS: we could leave it as a separate spec for now and consider folding it into SVG2 later 20:49:38 <heycam> ... that way people can implement it now 20:50:09 <heycam> Topic: textPath method="stretch" 20:51:06 <heycam> ED: it's being proposed that for textPath method="stretch" you warp the glyphs, Israel used the term "offset mapping" 20:51:13 <heycam> ... so making the glyphs rubbery and stretch them along the path 20:51:38 <heycam> ... it's not exactly what opera does at the moment; we don't stretch it out fully like that 20:51:55 <heycam> VH: but opera does some stretching? 20:51:58 <heycam> ED: yes 20:54:15 <heycam> (opera doesn't do an exact scaling of the glyphs, it stretches it into a trapezoid or something) 20:54:29 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#TextPathElementMethodAttribute 20:54:31 <heycam> VH: so he wants silverlight-like effects? 20:54:36 <heycam> ED: not quite 20:55:05 <heycam> ... he made a couple of different examples 20:55:10 <heycam> ... they're pretty compelling 20:55:23 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_ar6.svg 20:55:39 <heycam> ... Opera wouldn't behave like this 20:55:48 <heycam> ... if you take the "Z" character, it wouldn't be following the inner circle 20:55:58 <heycam> ... it would be positioned on the mid line of the glyph, a straight baseline 20:56:07 <heycam> ... and the top line of the character wouldn't follow the circle either 20:56:20 <heycam> TB: I was playing with some ligatures with that, it looks a bit ugly 20:56:24 <heycam> ... if you don't follow the curve 20:56:42 <heycam> ... if you have the "ffi", if all three parts of that are on a straight line, it doesn't look good 20:57:21 <heycam> VH: is he proposing a solution that explains exactly the processing to do this? 20:57:34 <heycam> ED: I think sort of, but it's not 100% clear in all parts 20:57:57 <heycam> ... there are some aspects of this proposal that aren't clear, like how rotate="" would affect this 20:58:26 <heycam> ... I pointed out a few things, where e.g. if you have a very sharp corner, the behaviour in such cases is not fully defined either 20:58:37 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_linejoin_round.svg 20:58:49 <heycam> ... ^ there is an example of a sharp corner 21:00:03 <heycam> DS: if we are going to change text path, maybe we might have an attribute that changes modes of how textPath behaves 21:00:22 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves.svg 21:00:22 <heycam> ... we have the current backwards compat mode, and we could opt in to this new functionality 21:00:31 <heycam> ED: also being able to specify two curves to stretch between 21:00:36 <heycam> ... that's similar to the silverlight one I think 21:00:46 <heycam> ... so it's following the curve and not using straight lines for the top/bottom of the glyphs 21:01:18 <heycam> CM: it's a short distance between this and doing it for general shapes 21:01:32 <heycam> DS: we did talk about a "shapePath", where it treats individual shapes as glyphs 21:02:05 <heycam> VH: these documents are pregenerated, do we know how he generates it? 21:02:22 <ed> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_in_out.svg (that's the non-bendy B) 21:02:37 <heycam> CM: if he could furnish us with some algorithms that would be a good way forward 21:02:48 <heycam> VH: is he a Member? 21:02:58 <heycam> CM: no, a public 21:03:49 <heycam> VH: I would be concerned if he shared them and wasn't a member 21:04:00 <heycam> DS: we do allow non-members to give IPR commitments 21:04:19 <heycam> TB: it should be pretty easy to duplicate 21:04:59 <heycam> ACTION: Tav to experiment with glyph warping text path stuff 21:04:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3070 - Experiment with glyph warping text path stuff [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-07-21]. 21:05:33 <heycam> TB: I think Inkscape already has something like this for a general path 21:06:00 <heycam> VH: is it just done with manipulating control points, or does it need to subdivide curves? 21:06:04 <heycam> TB: just control points 21:06:09 <heycam> ... we have some extensions 21:07:49 <vhardy> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_B.svg 21:08:48 <vhardy> http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves_B.svg 21:08:56 <tbah> http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-EnvelopeDeformation.html 21:09:52 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg 21:14:47 <heycam> (discussion about inkscape live path effects) 21:14:57 <heycam> VH: did Israel have a concretre proposal, or was it more about functionality? 21:15:01 <heycam> ED: more functionality 21:15:17 <heycam> ... not sure if he wanted something like live path effects, or just wanting the simple things to work 21:15:48 <heycam> CM: how might we move forward with this, aside from saying "that's cool"? 21:16:03 <heycam> VH: for anything like this to go into the spec, we need a real proposal 21:16:06 <heycam> ... either we do that or we ask him to do it 21:17:16 <heycam> ED: it would nice to be able to apply this to any shape 21:17:20 <heycam> ... not just text, textPath 21:17:33 <heycam> ... so it'd be nice if we had something like live path effects in SVG 21:17:48 <heycam> VH: should we have something like a rubber band effect? fairly generic, something that would apply to text or shapes 21:18:19 <heycam> ED: I think one of the use cases mentioned there was railroad tracks, labels on streets, etc. 21:21:00 <heycam> CM: what I want to know is how difficult it is to specify and compute 21:21:13 <heycam> ... it's clearly a high value effect, so if we can do it without too much difficulty, I think we should 21:22:15 <heycam> VH: we respond saying we could put it in the SVG2 requirements document, ask him to join the group help specify it 21:22:23 <heycam> ED: yes, if he has algorithms spec text to contribute 21:22:29 <heycam> ... writing up use cases for the path effects would be nice to have on the wiki 21:22:38 <heycam> VH: we have a page for the requirements document, for 2.0? 21:23:25 <heycam> CM: I think we never came to a decision on scope for 2.0 21:23:31 <heycam> ... there was a discussion on the list 21:23:38 <heycam> ... a month or two back 21:23:51 <heycam> DS: I'd said to wait for the Community group process to be up and running 21:23:56 <heycam> ... and use that to help scope the 2.0 work 21:24:39 <heycam> ... the infrastructure won't be there, though 21:25:10 <heycam> ... are we going to get people to mail to the list? it's work to collect that. 21:25:19 <heycam> VH: traditionally you would have a requirements document, an editor for that document 21:25:23 <heycam> ... we could do it on the wiki 21:25:43 <heycam> ... and then multiple people could collect things from the list to the wiki 21:26:41 <heycam> CM: I think we need a page like that for ourselves, at least, whether or not we use it for collecting requirements from the public 21:27:23 <heycam> VH: we can start a wiki page, that's a zero cost thing, make this the first entry 21:27:41 <heycam> ... during the meeting we could have someone put things on the page as we decide on certain features going in there 21:27:53 <heycam> DS: but that's only stuff that we talk about, not from the public 21:29:06 <heycam> VH: we could do it like today. we discuss things that come up on the list, and during the meeting we talk about adding it to the req document. 21:29:47 <heycam> DS: we could split it into high priority items, medium, low, suggested 21:33:34 <vhardy> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements 21:35:13 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended 21:35:14 <Zakim> Attendees were 21:35:23 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes 21:35:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html heycam 23:10:59 <homata_> homata_ has joined #svg 23:32:09 <karl> karl has joined #svg