13:56:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:56:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-rdfa-irc
13:56:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:56:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:56:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:56:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:19 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:56:19 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
13:57:30 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/
13:57:32 <manu> Chair: Manu
13:57:59 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0028.html
13:58:02 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:58:09 <Zakim> +??P0
13:58:19 <gkellogg> zakim, P0 is gkellogg
13:58:19 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
13:58:38 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P0 is gkellogg
13:58:38 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
13:58:58 <Zakim> +??P1
13:59:05 <Zakim> +??P5
13:59:10 <manu> zakim, I am ??P5
13:59:10 <Zakim> +manu; got it
13:59:17 <Zakim> +bergie
14:00:03 <Zakim> +Knud
14:00:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:00:09 <Zakim> +scor
14:00:14 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:00:15 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:00:34 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:00:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, ??P1, manu, bergie, Knud, MacTed, scor
14:00:41 <tomayac_> tomayac_ has joined #rdfa
14:00:54 <manu> zakim, who is making noise?
14:00:55 <lindstream> zakim, ??P1 is me
14:00:55 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it
14:01:00 <MacTed> who's on speaker?  or otherwise echoing?
14:01:05 <Zakim> manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gkellogg (16%), ??P1 (36%), Knud (49%), manu (100%), MacTed (24%)
14:01:11 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:01:11 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:01:21 <Knud> zakim, mute me
14:01:21 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
14:01:41 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
14:01:41 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
14:01:58 <Steven> zakim, code?
14:01:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven
14:02:46 <manu> Any updates/changes to the agenda?
14:02:55 <Knud> I have a quick question:
14:02:56 <manu> Any news?
14:03:07 <Knud> is there any RDFa parser for iOS?
14:03:12 <Zakim> +Steven
14:03:13 <Knud> or something along those lines?
14:03:27 <Knud> yes, you can compile C
14:03:31 <Knud> it's Obj-C
14:03:46 <Knud> I was thinking of writing one, then
14:03:49 <MacTed> Obj-C is superset of C (and of C++)
14:04:37 <manu> https://github.com/msporny/librdfa
14:04:37 <Knud> Yeah, I know librdfa - but if I want to implement the RDFa API on top of it, I'd rather have my own RDFa parser implementation
14:04:52 <Knud> I'm not promising anything. :)
14:04:58 <MacTed> I haven't tested ... but ODE may already do, and should be portable from base Mac OS X if not...
14:04:58 <Knud> just a toy project for me
14:05:17 <Knud> Ok, I'll check out ODE
14:05:38 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:06:06 <manu> http://80legs.com/
14:06:08 <Steven> Agenda+ISSUE-96: Document not ready
14:06:20 <Steven> Agenda+Graph.toArray() list order
14:06:30 <MacTed> Knud - just tested...  iOS Safari won't download/install extension, so not yet.  I'll make sure that's put on our roadmap.
14:06:31 <Steven> Agenda+Live NodeLists and Graphs
14:06:44 <Steven> Topic: Announcement
14:06:53 <Knud> thanks Ted!
14:06:55 <Steven> ManU: 80legs.com
14:07:00 <Steven> s/U/u/
14:07:32 <Steven> ... we are thinking of working with 80legs to get data about usage
14:07:59 <Steven> ... so that we can defend some of our positions, or otherwise
14:08:17 <Steven> ... and as a basic for the RDFa/Microdata task force
14:08:25 <Steven> next agendum
14:09:10 <Steven> Manu: I've been talking to people at browser companies, trying to get feedback
14:09:27 <Steven> ... about what changes they would like to see in RDFa to make them happy
14:09:31 <Steven> ... they are willing to talk
14:09:54 <Steven> ... so some recent bugs are a result of those discussions
14:10:57 <Steven> [x]: A lot don't know what they are going to do with the data yet
14:11:12 <Steven> ... from my point of view, it's about publishing more than we've got today
14:11:13 <manu> s/[x]/Niklas/
14:11:37 <Steven> Niklas: And they don't know why we want the data there
14:11:47 <Steven> Manu: Robert Nieman?
14:11:55 <Steven> Niklas: Yes, Mozilla and FIrefox
14:12:05 <Steven> Manu: Should we talk with them?
14:12:27 <Steven> Niklas: I haven't spent a lot of time doing that yet, but I'm thinking of doing more
14:12:57 <Steven> Manu: They say that they don't need it, but at the same time they say they like microdata
14:13:26 <Steven> Niklas: They don't grok the graphs of RDFa
14:13:48 <Steven> Manu: They don't want to reduce performance for a small audience
14:13:58 <Steven> s/for/for the benefit/
14:15:00 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-96: Document not ready
14:15:07 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/96
14:17:05 <Steven> Manu: Which direction should we go with htis?
14:17:08 <gkellogg> q+
14:17:08 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me
14:17:09 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
14:17:12 <bergie> +q
14:17:33 <Steven> Greg: Doing a callback is my preference
14:17:40 <manu> ack gkellogg
14:18:07 <lindstream> q+
14:18:20 <manu> ack bergie
14:18:21 <Steven> Henry: CLient-side js people ar efamiliar with event model, so I would bind to event-ready, or a similar event; don't bother with ready signals for particlatr resource
14:18:22 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
14:18:22 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
14:18:29 <Steven> sNiklas: I prefer callback
14:18:33 <Steven> s/sN/
14:18:39 <Steven> s/iklas/Niklas/
14:19:12 <Steven> Manu: An RDFa doc can have miltiple profiles. Processing can be done ignoring a subprofile that can't be fetched
14:19:20 <Steven> ... just one event is difficult
14:19:33 <Steven> s/CL/Cl/
14:19:50 <Steven> ... so how do we address one of 5 profiles not loading
14:19:53 <lindstream> q+
14:19:56 <Steven> s/ing/ing?/
14:19:59 <manu> ack lindstream
14:21:09 <Steven> Niklas: [missed]
14:21:26 <Steven> Manu: SO the only time the profile needs to be loaded is when we are trying to do something RDFa like with the data
14:21:34 <Steven> s/data/data?/
14:21:34 <gkellogg> q+
14:21:41 <manu> ack gkellogg
14:21:48 <Steven> Greg: That comes down to a usage model
14:22:07 <Steven> ... if the app knows what it needs. But doesn't get round needing to know when you can process
14:22:39 <Steven> ... we can't get away from needing that feedback
14:22:59 <Steven> Manu: So we could have a callback that gives a map of the profiles and whether they have loaded
14:23:08 <Steven> Gregory: That would do it
14:23:33 <Steven> ... it's easier to have a second callback saying when all profiles have been loaded
14:23:35 <lindstream> q+
14:23:48 <manu> ack lindstream
14:23:54 <Steven> ... knowing about failures could be useful
14:24:04 <manu> q+
14:24:51 <Steven> Manu: We could do the same with an event, it's about the parameter passed with event or callback
14:25:00 <tomayac> is it a good idea to decouple profile(s) loaded and document loaded events? wouldn't fine-grained error reporting be better? => e.g. profile x timeout
14:25:07 <Steven> ... but one per profile would require knowledge about number of profiles
14:25:15 <Steven> ... by the app writer
14:25:23 <Steven> q+
14:25:28 <Steven> ack m
14:25:47 <manu> ack manu
14:26:07 <manu> Steven: Sounds like you need an event to say they've all been done, and one error event if one of them fails.
14:26:15 <Steven> ack me
14:26:21 <tomayac> so you'd have an event dataloaded or whatever with fine-grained success/failre states
14:26:49 <tomayac> s/failre/failure/
14:27:25 <tomayac> then +1 for doing it the XForms way, Steven ;-)
14:27:28 <lindstream> q+
14:27:31 <Steven> Manu: Are we talking about the processor writer using these events for us in JS, or the webdeveloper knowing that the RDFa data is ready
14:27:37 <Steven> Niklas: The latter
14:27:38 <manu> ack lindstream
14:28:01 <Steven> ... I agree with an evet/callback saying everything is ready
14:28:10 <Steven> ... progress reoprting is not so important
14:28:17 <Steven> s/reop/repo/
14:28:41 <Steven> Manu: So maybe an event and a callback, event is RDFa-data-ready, the callback is an error callback
14:29:10 <Steven> ... does that cover it?
14:29:25 <Steven> [voice]: I think so
14:29:39 <bergie> Sounds good
14:30:10 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me
14:30:10 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
14:30:26 <manu> s/[voice]/Niklas/
14:30:27 <Steven> Henry: Sounds good. Keep things simple.
14:30:43 <tomayac> document.ondataready(event)
14:31:08 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
14:31:08 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
14:31:14 <tomayac> similar to document.onload
14:31:16 <Steven> ... try running VIE editing environment on top of RDFa API, would be a good test case
14:31:33 <lindstream> q+
14:31:33 <Steven> Manu: Some like the microdata API because there is only one event
14:31:38 <Steven> s/event/call/
14:31:40 <bergie> link to VIE for those who haven't seen it: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme
14:33:10 <Steven> Niklas: One remark, using profiles we don't need to use URIs, but the mapping is awkward for developers
14:34:51 <Steven> Manu: So maybe we need a "getraw" for the attribute as used in the page
14:35:01 <Steven> zakim, agenda?
14:35:01 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:35:02 <Zakim> 1. ISSUE-96: Document not ready [from Steven]
14:35:03 <Zakim> 2. Graph.toArray() list order [from Steven]
14:35:05 <Zakim> 3. Live NodeLists and Graphs [from Steven]
14:35:36 <Steven> [x]: So @profile is a new feature; why not have the default profile in the spec, and no other profile at all.
14:35:51 <manu> s/[x]/Stephane/
14:35:52 <Steven> ... what is the real benefit of profiles?
14:36:16 <Steven> Manu: The one big use case is microformats
14:36:25 <gkellogg> q+
14:36:33 <Steven> ... the other is for people who don't like CURIES
14:36:58 <manu> ack lindstream
14:36:59 <Steven> Stephane: Well, they can define the vocab inline
14:37:02 <manu> ack gkellogg
14:37:43 <Steven> Greg: Microformats work with a profile with an NCNAME
14:37:57 <Steven> ... maybe we can provide those as standard
14:38:03 <Steven> q+
14:38:30 <manu> ack Steven
14:38:43 <manu> Steven: The reason profiles are there are to provide an extension mechanism.
14:39:00 <manu> q+
14:39:09 <Steven> ack m
14:39:37 <manu> ack manu
14:39:41 <Steven> Manu: Good discussion, revisiting some of these decisions. Stephane made a good point, that most of the profile use cases could be addressed with @vocab
14:40:16 <Steven> ... but vocabulary mixing wouldn't work
14:40:32 <Steven> ... but you could just use prefixing
14:40:44 <lindstream> q+
14:41:28 <Steven> Niklas: I see the value in that. I thought of profiles as vocabs with mixing at a direct level. That use case might be small, and then you could use prefixes
14:41:49 <manu> ack lindstream
14:42:17 <Steven> Manu: So you suppotr removing @profile?
14:42:22 <Steven> s/potr/port/
14:42:38 <Steven> Niklas: Not sure. I like @profile
14:43:43 <Steven> Manu: People were wondering why we were using URLs to identify everything.
14:44:09 <Steven> ... they suggested using a default profile, wioth registering prefixes at the profile
14:44:21 <Steven> q+
14:44:28 <Steven> s/wio/wi
14:44:36 <Steven> ... a registery
14:44:38 <bergie> q+
14:44:44 <lindstream> q+
14:44:46 <Steven> s/registery/registry
14:44:57 <manu> ack Steven
14:45:40 <bergie> Zakim, unmute me
14:45:40 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted
14:45:42 <manu> ack bergie
14:45:48 <Steven> Steven: The idea is to give freedom, not asking people to register. It's like asking people to register class names
14:45:53 <Steven> Niklas: I second that
14:46:13 <Steven> ... people can use the ontology they feel like
14:46:29 <gkellogg> q+
14:46:36 <Knud> could we have both: a registry _and_ a local prefixing mechanism?
14:46:40 <Steven> ... I'm strongly against registering
14:46:44 <bergie> Zakim, mute me
14:46:44 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted
14:46:48 <manu> ack lindstream
14:46:57 <Steven> s/Niklas/Henry/
14:47:04 <Steven> Niklas: I support Steven and Henry on this
14:47:36 <MacTed> centralized registries are trouble
14:47:36 <Knud> a registry could help 80% of the big name use cases, the local prefixing could help the rest?
14:47:41 <manu> ack gkellogg
14:47:44 <MacTed> q+
14:47:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:47:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
14:47:57 <Steven> Greg: @profile is a complication in an implementation
14:48:06 <Steven> ... which should think about removing it
14:48:20 <Steven> ... @prefix does address the use cases
14:48:30 <manu> ack MacTed
14:48:57 <Steven> Ted: Centralised registries are always problematic. Doomed
14:49:09 <Steven> ... RDFa is succesful because it is not centralised
14:49:15 <Steven> s/sf/ssf/
14:49:29 <Steven> q+
14:49:56 <Steven> ... eventually we should think about getting rid of prefixing
14:50:07 <gkellogg> q+
14:50:10 <Steven> Manu: Is that an argument for @profile
14:50:13 <Steven> Ted: Not sure
14:50:35 <Steven> Ted: Ultimate solution is doc to be fully expanded at delivery
14:50:50 <Steven> Scribe: I disagree with that point of view
14:51:22 <manu> ack Steven
14:52:09 <manu> q+
14:52:26 <Steven> Ted: Shorthand gets in the way of knowing what the fully expanded form is
14:52:48 <Steven> Steven: I think that is anti-author
14:53:05 <Steven> ... writing the full form URIs would be awful
14:53:08 <manu> ack gkellogg
14:53:34 <Steven> Greg: Some of the copy-paste issues could be addressed at the top-level
14:53:35 <Steven> q+
14:53:37 <Steven> q-
14:53:42 <Steven> q+ on copy paste
14:54:06 <Steven> Greg: There is something to be said for things that are easy to read
14:54:12 <Steven> ... full URIs are a nightmare
14:54:15 <lindstream> q+
14:54:20 <bergie> bergie has joined #rdfa
14:54:26 <Steven> ... CURIEs are elegant in comparison
14:55:13 <Steven> Manu: I don't think Ted and Steven are saying different things; I think the web-level can transform
14:55:33 <manu> ack manu
14:55:50 <Steven> Ted: Where it happens is up to a lot of things
14:56:00 <Steven> ... you may not have control over the webserver
14:56:36 <Steven> ... there are multiple stages where these things matter
14:56:56 <Steven> ... who pays? The author, the end user, the programmer?
14:57:15 <Steven> ... The ugliness should be hidden from the enduser
14:57:24 <manu> ack Steven
14:57:25 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to comment on copy paste
14:58:02 <manu> Steven: I've always thought that the copy-paste problem was a bit of a red herring - I've never had problems with it myself - people that copy/paste tend to work in the same areas
14:58:12 <manu> Steven: if copy-paste is an issue, then authoring in general is an issue.
14:58:25 <manu> Steven: I don't think it's a big issue.
14:58:27 <manu> q+
14:58:36 <Zakim> -scor
14:58:37 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdfa
14:58:39 <Steven> Niklas: CURIES are one way to make things easier, @profile can help too
14:59:33 <Steven> Manu: So profiles can be used to ease authoring and consumption by the browser?
14:59:38 <manu> ack manu
14:59:39 <Steven> Niklas: Possibly
14:59:44 <manu> ack lindstream
15:00:05 <Steven> Manu: can someone raise these issues on the mailing list to get some feedback?
15:00:14 <Steven> ... such as proposing removing @profile
15:00:20 <MacTed> I have to jump to another call...
15:00:37 <Steven> x: Restricting @prefix to toplevel
15:00:54 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:00:55 <Steven> ]Manu: removing prefixes no one likes, but perhaps it's worth raising
15:01:05 <Steven> s/]//
15:01:11 <Steven> Greg: I'll do removing @profile
15:01:28 <Steven> Manu: I'll do restricting @prefix to head
15:01:41 <Steven> ... and removing p[refix altogether
15:01:44 <Steven> s/[//
15:02:20 <Steven> Topic: AOB
15:02:39 <Steven> Steven: Enquire using doodle about coming meetings?
15:02:43 <Steven> Manu: I'll do that
15:02:45 <Steven> ADJOURN
15:02:53 <bergie> bye
15:03:20 <gkellogg> s/Greg/Gregg/
15:03:27 <Zakim> -Steven
15:03:29 <Zakim> -manu
15:03:31 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:03:36 <Zakim> -Knud
15:03:41 <Zakim> -bergie
15:03:45 <tomayac> bye, sorry to miss audio today. seems like it would've been worth it.
15:03:47 <Zakim> -lindstream
15:03:49 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:03:53 <Zakim> Attendees were gkellogg, manu, bergie, Knud, scor, MacTed, lindstream, Steven
15:05:15 <gkellogg> *tomayac are congratulations in order?
15:06:26 <lindstream> thanks all!
15:06:32 <lindstream> lindstream has left #rdfa
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15:32:52 <Knud> Knud has left #rdfa