14:53:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:53:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc
14:53:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:53:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:53:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:53:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:44 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
14:54:00 <pgroth> scribe: James Cheney
14:54:05 <pgroth> scribe: Paul Groth
14:54:20 <pgroth> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.14
14:54:35 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
14:55:32 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
14:56:19 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov
14:56:21 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:56:21 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is
14:56:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot
14:56:36 <ericstephan> I haven't called in yet
14:57:03 <pgroth> zakim, this will be #prov
14:57:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
14:57:19 <pgroth> zakim, this will be  Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:57:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
14:57:22 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
14:57:40 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
14:57:42 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be Provenance
14:57:45 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is
14:57:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot
14:57:48 <ericstephan> I am on the call now (muted)
14:57:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
14:58:22 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:58:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
14:58:22 <pgroth> chair: Paul Groth
14:58:35 <Zakim> +??P21
14:58:37 <Zakim> +??P25
14:58:44 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:44 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
14:58:46 <pgroth> scribe:  James Cheney
14:58:47 <GK> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:58:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it
14:59:00 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25
14:59:03 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P25 is me
14:59:04 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
14:59:07 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P7 is me
14:59:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:59:08 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov
14:59:16 <ericstephan> I am 509.554
14:59:30 <Zakim> +tlebo
14:59:49 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:00:22 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:00:30 <tlebo> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:30 <pgroth> Regrets: Stephan Zednik
15:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh
15:01:08 <Zakim> +olaf
15:01:12 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #prov
15:01:16 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:01:20 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:22 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:01:29 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P10
15:01:39 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10
15:01:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:49 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov
15:01:50 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:01:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro,
15:02:01 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:02:02 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:02:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:02:24 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:02:44 <Zakim> +??P22
15:02:44 <jorn> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:48 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P34
15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34
15:03:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P34 is me
15:03:49 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:03:55 <Satya> Satya has joined #prov
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:04:01 <Zakim> +Davy
15:04:05 <Zakim> +??P42
15:04:17 <Zakim> +Reza
15:04:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:04:31 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aabb
15:04:31 <jcheney> paul: still working on minutes for F2F
15:04:52 <jcheney> paul: actions from F2F due today
15:05:09 <ericstephan> %22 
15:05:16 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aacc
15:05:16 <jcheney>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:05:24 <Zakim> +??P35
15:05:30 <Zakim> +??P44
15:05:53 <jcheney> eric: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done
15:06:06 <jcheney> eric: still need contributions
15:06:08 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov
15:06:17 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P35 is me
15:06:17 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:06:23 <rgolden> rgolden has joined #prov
15:06:25 <jcheney> paul: stephan is still working on actions
15:06:38 <jcheney> paul: paulo is not here
15:06:49 <jcheney> paul: simon's action?
15:06:52 <jcheney> simon: not done
15:06:54 <ericstephan> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
15:07:12 <jcheney> simon: action-21 also not done
15:07:24 <jcheney> paul: james mccusker action-22 - not here
15:07:31 <Zakim> -jcheney
15:07:39 <jcheney> simon: action 24 not done
15:07:57 <Zakim> +??P34
15:08:03 <jcheney> paul: action-28 assigned to paul not done
15:08:03 <jorn> zakim, ??p34 is me
15:08:03 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:08:16 <jcheney> paul: action-26 to satya 
15:08:27 <jcheney> satya: not done
15:08:50 <jcheney> khalid: action-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of
15:09:13 <jcheney> paul: action-28 to james myers - not here
15:09:15 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:09:33 <Luc> q+
15:09:33 <jcheney> paul: graham action-30 to move PAQ document to site
15:09:38 <jcheney> graham: working on it
15:09:51 <jcheney> paul: simon action-31 to enact PAQ plan
15:09:54 <jcheney> simon: done
15:10:17 <jcheney> paul: action-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style
15:10:33 <Luc> q?
15:10:35 <jcheney> paolo: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish
15:10:46 <jcheney> paul: many actions still open
15:11:07 <jcheney> paul: scribes needed
15:11:33 <Zakim> +??P51
15:11:50 <pgroth> q?
15:11:53 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
15:11:57 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:11:57 <Luc> q-
15:12:02 <jcheney> luc: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month
15:12:05 <jcheney> (??)
15:12:23 <jcheney> TOPIC: Plans for WG in next 3 months
15:12:50 <jcheney> paul: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology
15:12:58 <jcheney> paul: also want to deliver access document
15:13:10 <jcheney> paul: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues
15:13:58 <GK> I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against
15:14:00 <jcheney> paul: reports from connection & implementation TFs
15:14:30 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force 
15:15:10 <Zakim> -Davy
15:15:22 <jcheney> eric: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities
15:15:44 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
15:15:52 <jcheney> eric: yolanda made group poriority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?)
15:16:15 <jcheney> eric: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors
15:16:47 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov
15:17:01 <jcheney> eric: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september
15:17:09 <smiles> q+
15:17:30 <jcheney> simon: what does it mean to be a "source"?
15:18:38 <pgroth> ack smiles
15:18:59 <jcheney> eric: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs
15:19:12 <GK> q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document
15:19:23 <Zakim> +??P41
15:19:32 <Zakim> -??P14
15:19:43 <Paolo> zakim, ??P41 is me
15:19:43 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:19:43 <jcheney> graham: no reference to commercial compliance
15:20:09 <StephenCresswell> That was me
15:20:15 <jcheney> graham: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication
15:20:17 <rgolden> q+
15:20:29 <pgroth> ack GK
15:20:29 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document
15:20:34 <pgroth> ack rgolden
15:20:52 <jcheney> ryan: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages
15:21:16 <ericstephan> q+
15:21:51 <jcheney> yolanda: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap
15:22:10 <pgroth> ack ericstephan
15:22:40 <jcheney> eric: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report
15:23:10 <jcheney> yolanda: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind
15:23:16 <Zakim> -jorn
15:23:30 <Zakim> +??P14
15:23:39 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me
15:23:39 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:23:46 <jcheney> yolanda: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario
15:24:08 <Zakim> +Davy
15:24:21 <SamCoppens> zakim, Davy is me
15:24:21 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:24:26 <jcheney> yolanda: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant
15:24:44 <ericstephan> thank you Yolanda!
15:25:21 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force 
15:25:24 <pgroth> lena?
15:25:41 <Reza_BFar_> Reza_BFar_ has joined #prov
15:25:55 <Lena> I am having sound problems
15:26:09 <jcheney> paul: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available
15:26:38 <jcheney> paul: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week.
15:26:48 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force 
15:27:01 <jcheney> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html
15:27:07 <Zakim> +Lena
15:27:40 <jcheney> simon: working on uploading/revising access draft
15:27:51 <jcheney> simon: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F
15:28:22 <jcheney> simon: issues to be raised against draft and discussed
15:28:27 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:28:44 <jcheney> khalid: what date will document be available for comment
15:28:47 <Yogesh> +q
15:29:19 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:29:30 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%)
15:29:32 <GK> It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope)
15:29:34 <jcheney> simon: depends on when W3C version control is set up
15:29:42 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame
15:29:46 <pgroth> ack Yogesh
15:29:46 <khalidbelhajjame> @graham, thanks
15:30:08 <jcheney> yogesh: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line)
15:30:09 <pgroth> q?
15:30:23 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:30:29 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:30:34 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%)
15:30:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute sandro
15:30:42 <Zakim> Sandro should now be muted
15:30:44 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%)
15:30:45 <Yogesh> www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example
15:30:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute sandro
15:30:54 <Zakim> Sandro should no longer be muted
15:30:59 <jorn> zakim, please mute lena
15:30:59 <Zakim> Lena should now be muted
15:31:00 <jcheney> paul: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september
15:31:02 <Satya> +1
15:31:03 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:31:06 <olaf> +1
15:31:09 <tlebo> +1
15:31:14 <jcheney> paul: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1
15:31:32 <GK> +1 (kinda by default, I think)
15:31:36 <MacTed> +1
15:31:39 <dgarijo> +1
15:31:41 <rgolden> +1
15:31:44 <dcorsar> +1
15:31:48 <smiles> +1
15:31:50 <Yogesh> +1
15:31:52 <jcheney> paul: (meaning the access document)
15:31:57 <Zakim> -??P51
15:32:02 <SamCoppens> +1
15:32:28 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force
15:32:30 <jcheney> paul: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding)
15:32:35 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy?
15:32:46 <pgroth> q?
15:32:47 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%)
15:32:56 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Model Task Force 
15:33:05 <Zakim> -Reza
15:33:45 <jcheney> paolo: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document
15:33:55 <jcheney> paolo: tried to rephrase without altering semantics
15:34:01 <jcheney> paolo: baseline for proper document
15:34:02 <Zakim> +??P0
15:34:03 <Satya> @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC?
15:34:24 <jcheney> paolo: threads evolving on list
15:34:44 <jcheney> paolo: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model
15:35:09 <jcheney> luc: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready.
15:35:36 <jcheney> luc: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition.  Will discuss with paolo next week
15:35:43 <Luc> q?
15:35:45 <Satya> q+
15:36:00 <jcheney> satya: where is the new consolidated document?
15:36:27 <jcheney> paolo: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox
15:36:49 <Luc> q+
15:36:53 <Satya> q-
15:36:53 <jcheney> paolo: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it
15:37:01 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:37:03 <pgroth> q?
15:37:16 <jcheney> luc: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository
15:37:42 <jcheney> luc: Instructions will be posted soon
15:38:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Paolo's plan
15:38:46 <jcheney> paul: sandro, why is repository taking so long?
15:38:50 <jcheney> sandro: don't know
15:38:56 <Zakim> -jorn
15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P14
15:39:21 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me
15:39:21 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:39:45 <GK> @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so
15:39:46 <Satya> +1
15:39:47 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:39:50 <smiles> +1
15:39:51 <jcheney> paul: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1
15:39:53 <jcheney> +1
15:39:54 <MacTed> +1
15:39:57 <SamCoppens> +1
15:40:00 <rgolden> +1 (me or reza)
15:40:08 <dcorsar> +1
15:40:17 <pgroth> q?
15:40:20 <GK> +1 (to review, comment, propose changes)
15:40:50 <jcheney> paul: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya
15:41:03 <jcheney> satya: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model
15:41:22 <jcheney> satya: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners
15:41:52 <jcheney> satya: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points
15:41:59 <pgroth> q?
15:42:22 <jcheney> graham: assume that ontology will be version controlled?
15:43:03 <tlebo> q+
15:43:15 <jcheney> luc: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas
15:43:19 <pgroth> ack tlebo
15:43:29 <tlebo> Jim McCusker is speaking
15:43:45 <jcheney> tim: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible
15:43:51 <tlebo> That was Jim
15:43:51 <pgroth> q?
15:43:54 <jcheney> tim/jim mccusker
15:44:14 <pgroth> q?
15:44:23 <Paolo> +1
15:44:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute)
15:44:31 <tlebo> +1
15:44:32 <MacTed> +1
15:44:33 <dgarijo> +1 to help with the owl file
15:44:39 <tlebo> +1 for Jim McCusker
15:44:42 <jcheney> paul: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september)
15:44:44 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov
15:44:49 <JimMcCusker> +1
15:45:02 <jcheney> +1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help)
15:45:11 <tlebo> -= my vote for Jim McCusker
15:45:18 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discussion of Agent 
15:45:29 <jcheney> paul: Did not reach consensus at F2F
15:45:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force
15:45:41 <jcheney> paul: More discission of agent has been on mailing list
15:45:58 <Paolo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent
15:46:44 <pgroth> An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity.  It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred 
15:46:44 <pgroth> to be an agent by involvement in a process execution.
15:46:46 <jcheney> paul: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity"
15:46:53 <Zakim> +??P67
15:47:08 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aaaa
15:47:32 <pgroth> q?
15:47:32 <rgolden> q+
15:47:33 <jcheney> paul: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution
15:47:35 <pgroth> q?
15:47:40 <ericstephan> sorry have to leave early today
15:47:44 <ericstephan> ericstephan has left #prov
15:48:03 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
15:48:09 <JimMcCusker> +q
15:48:15 <pgroth> ack rgolden
15:48:19 <jcheney> ryan: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation
15:48:28 <jcheney> ryan: Suggest renaming process execution to agent
15:48:45 <jcheney> ryan: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function
15:49:26 <jcheney> ryan: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization"
15:49:43 <Luc> q?
15:49:50 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker
15:49:58 <Paolo> zakim, please mute me
15:49:58 <Zakim> Paolo was already muted, Paolo
15:50:06 <pgroth> q?
15:50:17 <jcheney> jim mccusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something)
15:50:34 <dgarijo> I agree with Jim.
15:50:44 <Satya> agree with @Jim
15:50:49 <jcheney> jim mccusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs)
15:50:51 <pgroth> q?
15:51:41 <jcheney> ryan:this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob
15:51:44 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:52:03 <Luc> q?
15:52:08 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:52:12 <pgroth> q?
15:52:27 <Satya> @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc.
15:52:32 <jcheney> jim mccusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way?
15:52:42 <jcheney> ryan: wikipedia for "software agent"
15:52:58 <Satya> q+
15:53:05 <jcheney> jim mccusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals)
15:53:30 <jcheney> ryan: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization
15:53:40 <pgroth> ack Satya
15:53:46 <jcheney> jim mccusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event
15:54:05 <jcheney> satya: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself
15:54:17 <jcheney> satya: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent
15:54:30 <jcheney> satya: deborah mentioned two things about agent:
15:54:38 <jcheney> satya: 1. making assertion that something is an agent
15:54:39 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:54:40 <Zakim> -jorn
15:54:45 <pgroth> q?
15:54:55 <Zakim> +??P14
15:54:57 <jcheney> satya: 2.  is something an agent only if it is involved in a process?
15:55:02 <JimMcCusker> Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent
15:55:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me
15:55:15 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:55:29 <Luc> q+
15:55:32 <jcheney> paul: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model?  there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party
15:55:52 <jcheney> luc: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution)
15:56:12 <jcheney> luc: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe
15:56:30 <pgroth> q?
15:56:31 <jcheney> luc: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??)
15:56:33 <Satya> recipe is a specification in my view
15:57:09 <jcheney> paul: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification"
15:57:18 <Luc> @satya: a program is a specification for an execution
15:57:18 <GK> volitional vs computational?
15:57:20 <jcheney> paul: Is agent more or less than responsible entity?
15:57:24 <JimMcCusker> Responsibility is a role of an entity
15:57:27 <pgroth> q?
15:57:27 <dgarijo> @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example?
15:57:27 <smiles> q+
15:57:32 <JimMcCusker> a participatory role
15:57:37 <JimMcCusker> q+
15:57:39 <Luc> q-
15:57:42 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:58:03 <jcheney> paul: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent"
15:58:36 <pgroth> ack smiles
15:58:38 <jcheney> simon: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not
15:59:10 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker
15:59:11 <jcheney> simon: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies
15:59:12 <pgroth> q?
15:59:44 <jcheney> jim mccusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process
16:00:05 <jcheney> jim mccusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies
16:00:24 <Satya> q+
16:00:28 <jcheney> jim mccusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context
16:00:42 <pgroth> ack Satya
16:01:02 <jcheney> satya: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean?  Subscribing to semantics of other model?
16:01:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
16:01:42 <Lena> +q
16:01:43 <smiles> q+
16:01:45 <jcheney> satya: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents
16:02:22 <jcheney> khalid: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about
16:02:25 <Luc> q?
16:02:25 <Lena> can you hear me?
16:02:26 <Paolo> q+
16:02:27 <jorn> zakim, unmute lena
16:02:27 <Zakim> Lena should no longer be muted
16:02:31 <Luc> ack khal
16:02:36 <pgroth> ack Lena
16:02:59 <pgroth> ack smiles
16:03:02 <jcheney> lena: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies?
16:03:17 <Paolo> zakim, unmute me
16:03:17 <Zakim> Paolo was not muted, Paolo
16:03:34 <jcheney> simon: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents.
16:03:50 <jcheney> simon: we may need to make assertions about agents 
16:04:01 <Satya> q+ to respond to simon
16:04:03 <jcheney> lena: we may need to identify agents of change
16:04:20 <pgroth> ack Paolo
16:04:29 <jcheney> paolo: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific
16:04:52 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal.  Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.
16:04:56 <jcheney> paolo: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points
16:05:20 <jcheney> paolo: Should be as minimalistic as possible
16:05:24 <pgroth> q?
16:05:25 <Luc> q+
16:05:27 <Luc> q-
16:05:29 <Luc> q?
16:05:34 <jcheney> satya: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things: 
16:05:36 <pgroth> ack Satya
16:05:36 <Zakim> Satya, you wanted to respond to simon
16:05:51 <jcheney> satya: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts
16:06:06 <jcheney> satya: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions
16:06:29 <jcheney> satya: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state
16:06:38 <Paolo> @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship
16:06:40 <jcheney> satya: cannot make assertions about relationship only
16:06:53 <Paolo> but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept
16:07:16 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal.  Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.
16:07:20 <Luc> yes, can we have a few examples?
16:07:23 <Paolo> interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call
16:07:28 <dgarijo> @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly..
16:07:36 <jcheney> paul: need examples where it is important to know agency
16:07:37 <Zakim> -??P0
16:07:39 <Zakim> -??P44
16:07:39 <Satya> @paolo and @daniel - agree
16:07:40 <Zakim> -jorn
16:07:41 <Paolo> @daniel sure!
16:07:44 <Zakim> -Lena
16:07:45 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aacc
16:07:45 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
16:07:45 <Zakim> -olaf
16:07:46 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:07:48 <Zakim> -??P22
16:07:50 <Zakim> -Paolo
16:07:52 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aabb
16:07:54 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:07:56 <Zakim> -Luc
16:08:00 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:08:02 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
16:08:04 <Zakim> -??P67
16:08:08 <Zakim> -Yogesh
16:08:12 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:08:16 <Zakim> -??P10
16:08:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
16:08:21 <Yogesh> Yogesh has left #prov
16:08:23 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
16:08:28 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth
16:08:31 <rgolden> @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler.  It needs to be useful.
16:08:33 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
16:08:33 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:08:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc,
16:08:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:08:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:08:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:08:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:08:36 <Zakim> ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena