14:57:18 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:57:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-html-a11y-irc
14:57:20 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:20 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:57:22 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:22 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:23 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:24 Date: 14 July 2011
14:58:42 zakim, who's here?
14:58:42 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, janina
14:58:43 On IRC I see RRSAgent, janina, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, davidb, trackbot, [tm]
14:59:22 regrets: Laura_Carlson, Eric_Carlson, Joshue_O'Connor
14:59:28 zakim, this is 2119
14:59:29 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
14:59:35 zakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:35 On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P20, Michael_Cooper
14:59:41 zakim, ??P20 is Janina_Sajka
14:59:41 +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:59:50 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/0090.html
15:00:02 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:00:03 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:00:03 agenda: this
15:00:03 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:00:03 agenda+ Last Call Review Status Checkin http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
15:00:03 agenda+ The div element and a11y http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/grouping-content.html#the-div-element
15:00:05 agenda+ Bug Triage Subteam: Recruiting; New Tasks
15:00:07 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Text; Media
15:00:09 agenda+ Other Business
15:00:11 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:00:11 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:00:12 agenda+ Identify Scribe for 7 July http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:00:15 agenda+ be done
15:00:17
15:01:45 +Judy
15:01:51 judy has joined #html-a11y
15:02:31 zakim, who's here?
15:02:40 zakim, who's here?
15:02:55 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Judy
15:03:02 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Judy
15:03:33 On IRC I see judy, kliehm, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, davidb, trackbot, [tm]
15:04:03 Zakim, call Mike
15:04:27 +kliehm
15:04:43 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:04:45 +Mike
15:05:54 paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:06:14 zakim, mute me
15:06:14 kliehm should now be muted
15:06:26 agenda?
15:06:49 scribe: Michael
15:06:52 scribe: MichaelC
15:06:56 zakim, close item 1
15:06:56 agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
15:06:58 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:58 zakim, next item
15:06:59 2. Last Call Review Status Checkin http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review [from janina]
15:07:01 agendum 2. "Last Call Review Status Checkin http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review" taken up [from janina]
15:07:38 js: wanted to do another round of email reminders
15:07:39 +[Microsoft]
15:07:49 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:07:49 +paulc; got it
15:08:50 mc: UAAG has done some reviews in their wiki, Jeanne will copy over
15:10:55
15:10:56 Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:11:17 js: going through the reviews will be a lot of work
15:11:22 perhaps need extended meetings
15:11:47 Survey on extended teleconference times: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/2011-07_specreview_times/results
15:12:03 +??P52
15:12:24 zakim, ??P52 is me
15:12:24 +Marco_Ranon; got it
15:12:30 zakim, mute me
15:12:30 Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:13:48 js: everyone, please submit your availabilities
15:13:50 zakim, next item
15:13:50 agendum 3. "The div element and a11y http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/grouping-content.html#the-div-element" taken up [from janina]
15:15:14 js: question of if there are accessibility issues with note: "Authors are strongly encouraged to view the div element as an element of last resort, for when no other element is suitable. Use of the div element instead of more appropriate elements leads to poor accessibility for readers and poor maintainability for authors."
15:15:56 any concerns with this?
15:15:59
15:16:09 will close this issue
15:16:14 zakim, next item
15:16:14 agendum 4. "Bug Triage Subteam: Recruiting; New Tasks" taken up [from janina]
15:16:51 js: Bug triage team did good work, need it to come back to work now
15:17:00 media sub-team would like support in near future
15:17:06 need to reinvigorate efforts
15:17:23 aware that Martin's role has changed and unable to continue leading that sub-team
15:18:20 q+
15:18:26 zakim, unmute me
15:18:26 kliehm should no longer be muted
15:18:31 need to find someone who's thorough about going through issues, makes sure things are dealt with
15:18:56 mk: also note that Laura not able to continue her task of reviewing incoming bugs for potential accessibility relationship
15:19:08 which was first input to the bug triage sub-team
15:19:30 js: that was a valuable service, need that covered as well
15:19:54 q+
15:20:02 ack k
15:20:11 jf: know there are some new bugs
15:20:13 zakim, mute me
15:20:13 kliehm should now be muted
15:20:13 ack pa
15:20:15 ack m
15:20:18 ack p
15:20:36 pc: encourage bug triage sub-team to filter for a11y relationship, and also to consider ones that should be Priority 1
15:21:41 jb: perhaps should look into that issue today
15:22:45 agenda+ initial check on bugs to consider escalating to priority one status
15:22:50 zakim, unmute me
15:22:50 Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
15:23:30 mr: don't think able to chair group, but can continue working on it
15:24:11 js: maybe we could draft Léonie
15:25:08 will follow up with her
15:25:30 zakim, mute marco
15:25:30 Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:25:54 zakim, next item
15:25:54 agendum 5. "Subteam Reports: Text; Media" taken up [from janina]
15:26:06 == Text ==
15:26:31 jb: discussed early draft of change proposal on table summary
15:26:40 josh and katie have taken over from gregory
15:26:48 starting with reopen request and rationale
15:27:26 needs some compilation and structuring
15:27:31 also discussing meta name=generator
15:28:47 longdesc ...
15:29:01 PC asked group to respond to other change proposals, group will be doing so
15:29:32 have responses to Jonas, not comfortable responding to Matt
15:29:52 I understand
15:30:19 pc: take up one of the challenges is better than none
15:30:47 jb: realize has process difficulty
15:31:13 pc: so you'd rebut Matt's points in survey
15:31:35 jb: yes, if it must be surveyed, we'd have to dredge up links, reformulate prior discussion
15:31:39 question of what chairs have to do
15:32:13 ability to judiciously put together proposals to survey?
15:32:25 pc: precedent has always been that we survey all proposals on the table
15:32:32 jb: thought had combined proposals
15:32:45 pc: in extreme circumstances, have done survey on the underlying questions
15:32:58 jb: hope response on Jonas proposal might help with that
15:33:09 pc: will consider that suggestion
15:33:47 jb: Laura's proposal has done a lot of work to reach out to stakeholders, prove functionality, etc.
15:33:57 would be odd to discard that work
15:34:33 jb: also working with WAI Coordination Group on location of alt guidance
15:35:01 MC has prepared content of a change proposal with rationale / explanation
15:35:35 draft available: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/att-0095/alt-techs-change-proposal.html
15:35:43 +Q
15:36:03 there may be some others coming soon as well
15:36:06 ack j
15:36:10 ack j
15:37:10 == Media ==
15:37:22 jf: down to two basic issues
15:37:28 hierarchical navigation
15:37:40 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:37:42 requirement to walk multimedia index like we do with DAISY etc.
15:37:50 in granular fashion
15:38:59 two approaches: one is to use lists, other is to use script to do heuristic analysis on timestamps to locate items under chapters
15:39:24 both are logged as bugs, waiting on editor response to see what next
15:39:42 next media issue is how to represent static image when media not playing
15:40:07 colloquially "paused media", also known as poster alt issue
15:40:18 seem to have a philosophical impasse
15:40:31 relates to the discussion in text team on Jonas proposal
15:40:44 I am in process of working up a detailed response
15:41:10 original issue was closed without prejudice because of timeline
15:41:16 but bug entry still in play
15:41:54 == Canvas ==
15:42:16 js: Rich not here to report
15:43:08 jb:
15:43:58 some statements appear to represent lack of commitment to make canvas accessible
15:44:25 TF needs to monitor, issue of important graphics format with commitment to making it accessible
15:44:33 s/with/without/
15:44:47 q+
15:45:10 cs: trying to find help in fleshing out script+css solution using shadow dom
15:45:12 q+
15:45:14 ack p
15:45:25 ack p
15:45:54 +q
15:46:19 pc: seems one camp thinks canvas shouldn't be used, so why bother to make it accessible; other thinks everything should be regardless
15:46:36 see implementers voting with their feet, don't think the scenario will be used
15:46:51 jb: so maybe use case needs clarified
15:47:08 pc: implementers don't think use case is supported
15:47:25 opinion based on high-level reading of a long thread....
15:47:42 jb: think it's worth exploring the gulf
15:47:44 ack
15:47:47 ack j
15:47:51 ack j
15:48:19 had heard that shadow dom approach was considered not viable
15:48:34 cs: only objection I know of is that it only supports rectangular bounds
15:48:48 but that's true of MSAA and other platform APIs, Flash, Silverlight...
15:48:53 so not sure this is a big problem
15:49:22 need to spend time on the use cases in this light
15:49:26 q+
15:49:35 I need to logoff to get ready for the HTML WG Weekly meeting which I am chairing this week.
15:49:43 might be able to come up with "good enough" first step solution
15:50:13 q
15:50:15 q?
15:51:16 jf:
15:51:44 also, one perspective has been that we shouldda used SVG, but that's a difficult conversation to have
15:52:01 jf: steve faulkner brought a bunch of good examples, but others said, should have been SVG, but that's shoulda/woulda/coulda.
15:52:03 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:52:04 cs: market might choose SVG for certain applications, but don't know what will happen
15:52:38 jf: isn't proposal lightweight?
15:52:40 cs: not enough so
15:52:54 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:52:54 jb: location of examples?
15:53:07 js, jf: in the thread
15:53:59 jb: seems some not persuaded by use cases, others unsure about future directions
15:54:16 we see often that we try to prescribe uses of our technologies, but can't control it
15:54:28 people with disabilities tend to lose out in such situations
15:54:48 pulling together use cases and issues would be helpful
15:54:58 -[Microsoft]
15:55:16 cs: for use cases on wiki, some are must-have, some are nice-to-have
15:55:32 q?
15:55:41 ack j
15:56:11
15:56:24 rs: CSS is a lot of work for developer
15:56:42 canvas visual renderings have transformations applied
15:56:47 and don't have uniform square shapes
15:56:56 CSS would have to address those
15:57:03 Steve F's examples: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0202.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0207.html
15:57:07 then there's question of scrolling
15:57:18 makes lots of work for authors, easy to mess up
15:58:06 cs: rectangular is part of aapi
15:58:27 rs: so have to do mapping from non-rectangular to rectangular, lots of work
15:58:42 should have UA do that, not autho
15:58:46 s/autho/author/
15:59:04 cs: in general better to leave to UA, but prioritization needed
15:59:11 making easier for author might be a nice-to-have
15:59:46 rs: it's a big burden and duplicate work
15:59:54 cs: but we don't have market information about these use cases
16:00:01 hard to convince implementers of priority
16:00:26 rs: any aapi must have bounds of object
16:01:01 cs: think CSS solution may be good enough for now
16:01:21 if it turns out there are common cases where it's not good enough, we can add functionality in future
16:01:26 but we don't know this yet
16:01:46 -Judy
16:02:00 rs: what does that mean?
16:02:11 cs: random example, say people build pie charts, CSS is good enough
16:02:28 but they don't build photo editors, for which CSS wouldn't be good enough
16:02:39 rs: have already submitted diagrams as use case
16:02:49 cs: but don't know if that's a common use case
16:02:58 for canvas
16:03:44 rs: of course we don't know future, but still need to put accessibility in spec
16:04:15 cs, rs:
16:04:25 +1 to Rich
16:05:04 rs:
16:05:24 cs:
16:06:00
16:06:53
16:09:13 q?
16:11:16 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:11:18 -Mike
16:11:18