IRC log of css on 2011-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:31:58 [RRSAgent]
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15:31:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:32:06 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:32:06 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
15:32:11 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:43:46 [Florianr]
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15:55:06 [Kimberly]
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15:55:32 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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smfr has joined #css
15:56:25 [Zakim]
15:56:32 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:56:32 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:01 [Zakim]
15:57:19 [Zakim]
15:57:20 [Zakim]
15:57:49 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P6 is Florianr
15:57:51 [Zakim]
+Florianr; got it
15:57:54 [jdaggett]
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15:58:35 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger
15:58:35 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
15:58:53 [Zakim]
15:59:11 [Zakim]
15:59:13 [Zakim]
15:59:13 [Zakim]
15:59:14 [hober]
Zakim: Apple has hober
15:59:22 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has hober
15:59:24 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
15:59:34 [Zakim]
15:59:42 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p16 is me
15:59:42 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:00:02 [bradk]
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16:00:09 [glazou]
plinss: now I have two peter.linss in msn :-(
16:00:16 [acebal]
acebal has joined #css
16:00:29 [Zakim]
16:00:29 [arronei_]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+arronei_; got it
16:00:32 [vhardy]
vhardy has joined #css
16:00:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aaaa
16:00:46 [glazou]
16:00:54 [Zakim]
16:01:09 [Zakim]
16:01:10 [johnjan]
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16:01:24 [johnjan]
Zakim, Microsoft has johnjan
16:01:24 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
16:01:25 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kimberlyblessing, glazou, nimbu, Florianr, smfr, dsinger (muted), plinss, SteveZ, [Apple], jdaggett, [Microsoft], +1.408.536.aaaa, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa]
16:01:28 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
16:01:29 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has johnjan
16:01:30 [Zakim]
16:01:35 [danielweck]
danielweck has joined #css
16:01:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.228.aabb
16:01:44 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:01:51 [Zakim]
16:01:52 [dsinger_]
dsinger_ has joined #css
16:01:56 [glazou]
sorry for that
16:01:58 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger
16:01:58 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:02:09 [kojiishi]
kojiishi has joined #css
16:02:35 [acebal]
zakim, aabb is me
16:02:35 [Zakim]
+acebal; got it
16:02:41 [Zakim]
16:02:47 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
16:02:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kimberlyblessing, glazou, nimbu, Florianr, smfr, plinss, SteveZ, [Apple], jdaggett, [Microsoft], +1.408.536.aaaa, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa], acebal, dsinger
16:03:00 [Zakim]
... (muted), ??P25
16:03:03 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
16:03:04 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:03:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kojiishi, danielweck, johnjan, vhardy, acebal, bradk, jdaggett, smfr, kimberlyblessing, dbaron, Florianr, krijnh, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Bert, arno, Martijnc,
16:03:13 [Zakim]
... sylvaing, shepazu, ChrisL, nimbupani, karl, arronei_, boblet, aswetrave, lhnz, fantasai, plinss, Hixie, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober
16:03:16 [Zakim]
16:03:24 [glazou]
Zakim, aaa is vhardy
16:03:29 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
16:03:31 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is vhardy
16:03:34 [dsinger_]
dsinger_ has joined #css
16:03:34 [plinss]
zakim, ?P25 is fantasai
16:03:34 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
16:03:36 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P25'
16:03:49 [Zakim]
16:04:09 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p25 is fantasai
16:04:09 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:04:13 [Zakim]
16:04:13 [danielweck]
zakim, ??p30 is me
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:04:14 [Zakim]
16:04:16 [Zakim]
16:04:22 [dsinger_]
dsinger_ has joined #css
16:04:24 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger
16:04:24 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:04:30 [vhardy]
ScribeNick: vhardy
16:04:35 [murakami]
murakami has joined #css
16:04:41 [Zakim]
16:04:46 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kimberlyblessing, glazou, nimbu, Florianr, smfr, plinss, SteveZ, [Apple], jdaggett, [Microsoft], vhardy, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa], acebal, fantasai,
16:04:54 [Zakim]
... danielweck, bradk, Bert, dsinger (muted), arno
16:04:55 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
16:04:56 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:04:57 [vhardy]
glazou: New agenda topics?
16:04:58 [Zakim]
16:05:18 [vhardy]
fantasai: discussion about priorities and schedule for things in writing-modes
16:05:23 [vhardy]
glazou: anything else?
16:05:30 [glazou]
16:05:36 [vhardy]
glazou: Topic: writing modes, following from last week.
16:05:46 [ChrisL]
zakim, mute me
16:05:46 [Zakim]
ChrisL should now be muted
16:05:57 [vhardy]
glazou: I missed the last minutes of last week.
16:06:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.246.aacc
16:06:12 [vhardy]
jdaggett: this is Fantasai's proposal. My proposal is different.
16:06:22 [vhardy]
.. I do not see the need to compare the bidi algo.
16:06:40 [Zakim]
16:06:48 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aadd
16:06:52 [jdaggett]
Figure 7:
16:06:55 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p37 is me
16:06:55 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:06:56 [howcome]
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16:06:56 [vhardy]
... for the text orientation, you need a way to distiguish for different unicode point, which are going to rotate and the ones that are going to remain upright.
16:07:27 [Zakim]
16:07:28 [vhardy]
... if you look at figure 7 in the writing mode spec (link above).
16:07:51 [vhardy]
... this is the problem that text orientation is trying to address. You have content that is rendered in different directions depending on context.
16:08:05 [vhardy]
... 2011 is rendered upright but also rotated right.
16:08:37 [vhardy]
... If you have normal punctuation ascii characters for example, it is not clear what direction they should have in all cases.
16:09:06 [vhardy]
... For emoticon, for example, the orientation may be different depending on context (e.g., in english text or in japanese text).
16:09:45 [vhardy]
... My proposal was that for ambiguous characters, they would take the orientation of the surrounding text.
16:10:10 [vhardy]
florianr: it seems that what your propose is close to what fantasai is proposing.
16:10:36 [vhardy]
jdaggett: yes, but I do not see the need to bring in BiDi to resolve this simpler problem.
16:11:02 [vhardy]
florian: if you want to drop the introduction, that is fine.
16:11:15 [vhardy]
jdaggett: BiDi has nesting behaviors.
16:11:49 [vhardy]
fantasai: in some cases, the context is ambiguous, and BiDi has already solutions for resolving ambiguous contexts.
16:12:15 [vhardy]
fantasai: I could rewrite without using the BiDi reference but use the same algorithm.
16:12:43 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai: rewrite proposal to not reference bidi because it's confusing
16:12:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-338 - Rewrite proposal to not reference bidi because it's confusing [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-07-20].
16:12:47 [dsinger_]
It seems that the same ambiguities arise don't they?
16:13:09 [vhardy]
jdaggett: starting the explanation by details of the BiDi algorithm is obtuse.
16:13:21 [vhardy]
fantasai: is the action item satisfactory.
16:14:08 [vhardy]
glazou: the issue is about the algorithm, not the word BiDi
16:14:10 [dsinger_]
So John thinks some other algorithm applies??
16:14:20 [vhardy]
fantasai: I thought you wanted the same behavior. I do not understand what you want.
16:15:12 [vhardy]
szilles: I sent a message last night which suggested that using the script TR instead of the BiDi TR would make more sense. Simpler, covers a number of the cases that jdaggett wanted to cover.
16:15:28 [Zakim]
16:15:31 [vhardy]
... it is a simpler description. It is not algorithmic unfortunately. There are problems with matching code.
16:17:21 [vhardy]
... the second thing I suggested (less sure about this one, but suggested to me by Eric): since there are a number of characters that cover the common cases (punctuations and symbols) that comme with a particular full width code. If you want the unrotated one, you would use the full width code. I am less certain about this one.
16:17:43 [vhardy]
... Eric was suggesting that we should have simple rules that did not try to be clever if we did not need to be.
16:18:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.284.628.aaee
16:18:22 [vhardy]
jdaggett: we need to decide to address or not address: what is the use of full width code points in this mode. You suggest to use it as a way to guarantee that the characters are upright.
16:18:38 [vhardy]
jdaggett: this may create problems with search in browsers.
16:18:38 [acebal]
zakim, aaee is me
16:18:38 [Zakim]
+acebal; got it
16:18:52 [vhardy]
fantasai: this is broken in browsers. They should use NFK decomposition.
16:20:24 [vhardy]
jdaggett: if you have NASA, there are actually two different code points for each letter: one is the ascii version and one is the full width version. In vertical text, the natural orientation of ascii characters is rotated right. For full width, they remain upright in vertical text.
16:20:50 [TabAtkins_]
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16:20:55 [vhardy]
.... we are talking about presentational attributes. They have nothing to do with content. We are talking about changing the code points to fit the presentation.
16:21:32 [vhardy]
... I am not sure if it is indirectly, but in JLRec they are going away from using the full width code point.
16:21:43 [dsinger_]
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16:21:48 [glazou]
Bert: I think we need even more lines on this conf call...
16:21:52 [vhardy]
szilles: I do not disagree. I wanted to bring it up, because it provides a simple consistent rule.
16:22:08 [vhardy]
... I think this was also the rule in the original Microsoft implementation.
16:22:17 [vhardy]
jdaggett: do we want to perpetuate this.
16:22:33 [vhardy]
szilles: what is the mechanism for a person to control things if the rules do not do what we want?
16:23:02 [glazou]
Bert: the latter
16:23:18 [vhardy]
jdagette: we need a default rule. Every code point has a natural orientation. Then, how do you control for characters that can go both ways. These two things are different. The spec. does not have a way to define the default.
16:23:19 [glazou]
Bert: tab can't join, no more slots
16:23:44 [vhardy]
florianr: the current spec., even though using BiDi, has a mechanism for defining the default orientation.
16:23:56 [dsinger]
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16:24:31 [Zakim]
16:24:31 [vhardy]
jdagette: appendix A has definitions, that if you take normatively, would give you a definition. jdagett says there is no normative definition.
16:24:38 [Zakim]
16:24:46 [vhardy]
s/appendix A/appendix Q
16:25:33 [glazou]
dsinger: yeah :(
16:25:44 [dsinger]
1) vertical writing is not an exclusively web/html/css problem, and we shouldn't be defining how to do it; that's a Unicode problem.
16:26:08 [vhardy]
jdagett: I do not think these should be in appendices. Appendix C, if you are just writing a classification scheme is ok. If you are explaining the classification, it should be in the body of the text and it should be normative.
16:26:10 [dsinger]
2) the existence of two code points for 'N', 'A', 'S' is not our problem either
16:26:29 [vhardy]
jdagett: we need a better default.
16:26:56 [plinss]
zakim, plinss has TabAtkins_
16:26:56 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins_; got it
16:27:13 [dsinger]
I m still unclear whether the problem is that (a) Elika's algorithm is wrong or too complex, and we need to refer to a different one (b) the write-up is too complex or confusing or (c) the write-up should not mention Bidi.
16:27:15 [glazou]
thanks plinss
16:27:18 [vhardy]
florianr: I agree we need something and it should be normative. If we take fantasai's mail, removing the BiDi reference, and moving text to the body of the text. Is that something we agree on?
16:27:51 [vhardy]
szilles: no, I do not agree with the algorithm. Also, there is disagreement on whether the code point should be used to determining orientation.
16:28:09 [glazou]
we shift at :30
16:28:20 [vhardy]
szilles: shapes script should never been shown up right.
16:28:28 [vhardy]
glazou: 3mn left on this topic.
16:28:40 [vhardy]
szilles: we need to find a way to resolve the issues that are remaining.
16:28:48 [vhardy]
szilles: it is not just the algorithm.
16:29:09 [vhardy]
jdaggett: I can list the issues, not necessarily propose solutions.
16:29:19 [vhardy]
szilles: we can also discuss this at the F2F.
16:29:57 [vhardy]
ACTION: Jdaggett to outline the questions we need to address with regards to text orientation in writing-modes.
16:29:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-339 - Outline the questions we need to address with regards to text orientation in writing-modes. [on John Daggett - due 2011-07-20].
16:30:14 [vhardy]
glazou: Topic: F2F
16:30:26 [vhardy]
glazou: Topic: Scheduling?
16:31:13 [vhardy]
fantasai: for writing modes, we have the ability to say explicitly if a text is upright or sideways. There was a suggestion for alternative syntax for code-points. I think we will not finish the spec. if we go that way.
16:31:25 [vhardy]
jdaggett: I think this is dependent on the other questions we need to address.
16:32:04 [vhardy]
fantasai: the other issue, is that the spec. says that if the font has information about the orientation of the characters, then you use it, otherwise you sythesize it from the rules in the spec. appendix.
16:32:35 [vhardy]
fantasai: most characters will be oriented properly, some may not be.
16:32:52 [arronei]
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16:33:41 [Zakim]
16:34:01 [Zakim]
16:34:05 [vhardy]
fantasai: if we want to define things in full details for automatic determination, it will take another 6 months to 1 year. In the meanwhile, people are writing to the ePub spec and people are not going to implement this correctly. The ePub spec will track our behavior, not syntax. We will have an ecosystem that will use the epub syntax and it is standardized.
16:34:10 [danielweck]
zakim, ??P0 is me
16:34:10 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:34:35 [vhardy]
jdaggett: there has not been anything defined so far that epub is going down a specific way. I do not see a huge issue with the schedule.
16:35:20 [vhardy]
fantasai: we are asking ePub to have a different syntax while we are figuring out things that I do not think are critical.
16:35:31 [vhardy]
jdaggett: the problems have not been worked out.
16:35:52 [vhardy]
glazou: we need to take this offline or at the face to face.
16:36:33 [fantasai]
16:36:54 [vhardy]
sylvaing: I would like to see use cases that can be understood by me and the rest of the group.
16:37:35 [vhardy]
szilles: we are trying to define the default behavior.
16:37:53 [vhardy]
sylvaing: I would like to see the requirements and use cases. They would be helpful.
16:38:02 [vhardy]
szilles: the original requirements came from Michel.
16:38:11 [vhardy]
glazou: let's move this to email.
16:38:16 [vhardy]
glazou: Topic: F2F
16:38:31 [glazou]
16:38:33 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:38:33 [Zakim]
ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:38:44 [vhardy]
glazou: we only have 6 agenda items for the meeting. We need more. I am not sure if everybody has filled in the meeting page.
16:39:09 [vhardy]
sylvain: I have 17 people registered. Please register ASAP. For the joint meeting, I only have 30 seats.
16:39:25 [vhardy]
sylvain: how can I modify the Wiki page?
16:39:36 [fantasai]
sylvaing, your username is sylvaing, you already have an account that you made
16:39:40 [bradk]
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16:39:47 [smfr]
did sylvaing say that the joint meeting with svg was thursday?
16:39:49 [vhardy]
sylvain: we have having issues finding extra rooms at the Marriott. Will provide another hotel.
16:40:00 [ChrisL]
svg wg registration results at
16:40:06 [Zakim]
- +1.425.246.aacc
16:40:19 [vhardy]
szilles: is the courtyard fully booked?
16:40:27 [vhardy]
sylvaing: issues on Sunday. Other days seem ok.
16:40:39 [ChrisL]
@glazou agenda items for the FX tf day are here
16:41:12 [vhardy]
sylvaing: joint meeting is on Tuesday.
16:41:42 [vhardy]
sylvaing: there will be a hosted dinner on Sunday night.
16:41:57 [plinss]
16:42:24 [BradK_]
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16:42:58 [vhardy]
sylvaing: we are interseted in flexbox, gradients and grids.
16:43:45 [vhardy]
florianr: should we discuss single origin too?
16:43:55 [vhardy]
we need jdaggett for that.
16:44:16 [vhardy]
jdaggett: I could dial in, but we need more progress before we can discuss it again.
16:44:49 [vhardy]
glazou: anything else on F2F?
16:45:02 [vhardy]
glazou: Topic: charter.
16:45:20 [vhardy]
chrisl: charter has been updated with the expected state in the next few years instead of priorities.
16:45:25 [jdaggett]
16:45:25 [glazou]
16:45:29 [jdaggett]
16:45:32 [BradK_]
Will I be able to connect to f2f via Zakim?
16:45:46 [vhardy]
chrisl: charter has been sent to the AC. If there are no comments, will be sent to AC for balotting.
16:46:10 [vhardy]
glazou: Topic: 3 or 4 publication requests
16:46:20 [vhardy]
glazou: CSS Device Adaptation from Florian.
16:46:43 [vhardy]
florianr: we asked to have it published. We added all the pending issues so it should be ready to publish.
16:46:56 [vhardy]
glazou: objections to publish.
16:47:10 [alexmog]
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16:47:33 [vhardy]
RESOLVED: publish the CSS device adaptation spec.
16:48:07 [vhardy]
glazou: deanj requested to publish css3 animations.
16:48:16 [glazou]
16:48:21 [vhardy]
fantasai: are the issues captured as issues in the draft?
16:48:49 [vhardy]
sylvaing: we provided feedback that should be captured in the draft.
16:49:07 [vhardy]
dbaron: I can also help.
16:49:47 [vhardy]
ACTION: dean to add issues listing the remaining discussion points to be resolved in css animation and css transitions before they can be published.
16:49:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-340 - Add issues listing the remaining discussion points to be resolved in css animation and css transitions before they can be published. [on Dean Jackson - due 2011-07-20].
16:50:14 [vhardy]
glazou: CSS3 speech ready?
16:50:31 [vhardy]
daniel: not as a LC WD. I would like to ask if the WG has been able to look at my proposal.
16:51:04 [vhardy]
daniel: I need to align the css syntax with the ssml syntax.
16:51:31 [vhardy]
daniel: the syntaxes are incompatible. The more contentious issue is to add pre-recorded audio queues. I am still working on this.
16:51:37 [danielweck]
last issue
16:51:43 [danielweck]
16:51:43 [fantasai]
16:51:49 [danielweck]
speech synthesis versus pre-recorded audio
16:51:57 [danielweck]
(will publish update later today)
16:52:09 [Zakim]
16:52:16 [danielweck]
16:52:28 [glazou]
16:52:29 [vhardy]
glazou: we will discuss it again when Daniel says he is ready.
16:52:39 [vhardy]
glazou: the next issue is css3-ui.
16:52:59 [vhardy]
glazou: Tantek resolved the issues from the last set of feedback. It seems to be ready.
16:53:13 [vhardy]
jdaggett: we need the editor to make a decision.
16:53:23 [vhardy]
glazou: we'll ask Tantek to join next week.
16:53:34 [vhardy]
glazou: could everybody review the css3-ui spec.
16:53:45 [vhardy]
ACTION: all to review the css3-ui last draft.
16:53:45 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - all
16:53:53 [Zakim]
16:54:04 [vhardy]
glazou: call next week?
16:54:11 [vhardy]
(most people are available).
16:54:23 [vhardy]
glazou: there will be a call next week.
16:54:28 [Bert]
q+ to mention HTML5 LC
16:55:01 [vhardy]
bert: HTML5 issued a LC about a month ago. We should send comments or say we do not have comments. We should start collecting our feedback.
16:55:21 [vhardy]
glazou: there are a lot of things to say especially about the pseudos that were never discussed.
16:55:32 [vhardy]
bert: there is also things on rendering.
16:55:38 [vhardy]
glazou: styling of placeholders.
16:55:47 [vhardy]
bert: scoping as well.
16:55:55 [vhardy]
glazou: it is undefined.
16:56:20 [vhardy]
szilles: is there a list?
16:56:40 [vhardy]
ACTION: glazou to send the list of HTML5 comments to the CSS WG before the next F2F (Seattle)
16:56:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-341 - Send the list of HTML5 comments to the CSS WG before the next F2F (Seattle) [on Daniel Glazman - due 2011-07-20].
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- +47.23.69.aadd
16:57:44 [Zakim]
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16:57:52 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:57:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were kimberlyblessing, glazou, nimbu, smfr, Florianr, dsinger, SteveZ, hober, jdaggett, arronei_, +1.408.536.aaaa, johnjan, +1.858.228.aabb, sylvaing, acebal, vhardy,
16:57:57 [Zakim]
... fantasai, bradk, danielweck, Bert, arno, ChrisL, +1.425.246.aacc, +47.23.69.aadd, kojiishi, dbaron, +1.284.628.aaee, [Apple], TabAtkins_
16:57:59 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple.a] had dsinger
16:58:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[apple.a] had dsinger', dsinger
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sylvaing: see for info how to set up CVS access for the member only page
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trackbot, help?
17:07:35 [trackbot]
See for help
17:08:25 [karl]
trackbot, status?
17:08:25 [trackbot]
This channel is not configured
17:08:32 [karl]
ah merci trackbot
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