IRC log of webrtc on 2011-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:53:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webrtc
15:53:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-webrtc-irc
15:53:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webrtc
15:53:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:53:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:53:42 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Real-Time Communications Working Group Teleconference
15:53:43 [trackbot]
Date: 12 July 2011
15:53:50 [francois]
zakim, what conferences?
15:53:50 [Zakim]
I see XML_ET-TF()11:00AM active
15:53:52 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are SW_RIF()11:00AM, SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, DIG_weekly()11:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM, Team_(wf)15:00Z, SW_HCLS(COI)11:00AM,
15:53:57 [Zakim]
... RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, HTML_WG(HTMLT)11:00AM, UW_(Real-Time)12:00PM, WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM, I18N_ITS IG()11:00AM
15:54:15 [francois]
zakim, this will be UW_(Real-Time)
15:54:15 [Zakim]
ok, francois; I see UW_(Real-Time)12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:55:19 [francois]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2011Jul/0024.html
15:55:25 [burn]
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15:55:26 [francois]
Chair: Harald
15:56:43 [Zakim]
UW_(Real-Time)12:00PM has now started
15:56:50 [Zakim]
+??P5
15:56:59 [burn]
zakim, ??P5 is Dan_Burnett
15:56:59 [Zakim]
+Dan_Burnett; got it
15:57:04 [burn]
zakim, I am Dan_Burnett
15:57:04 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett
15:57:13 [Cary]
Cary has joined #webrtc
15:57:20 [Cary]
Going to brb
15:58:42 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:58:47 [francois]
zakim, ??P10 is me
15:58:47 [Zakim]
+francois; got it
16:00:08 [hta]
hta has joined #webrtc
16:00:23 [hta]
Will be along in 2 minutes.
16:00:24 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
16:00:29 [hta]
Is 1700z the right time?
16:00:44 [ceyrigno]
ceyrigno has joined #webrtc
16:00:47 [burn]
hta, now is the right time
16:00:48 [anant]
anant has joined #webrtc
16:00:56 [Zakim]
+Alissa
16:01:06 [Zakim]
+ +44.190.881.aaaa
16:01:17 [Zakim]
+Caroline
16:01:36 [alissa]
alissa has joined #webrtc
16:01:41 [hta]
I thought it sounded wrong :-)
16:01:46 [Zakim]
- +44.190.881.aaaa
16:02:00 [ceyrigno]
+Christophe
16:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.256.aabb
16:02:21 [Zakim]
+??P28
16:02:33 [Zakim]
+ +44.190.881.aacc
16:02:33 [Zakim]
-??P28
16:03:22 [francois]
zakim, aabb is Cary
16:03:22 [Zakim]
+Cary; got it
16:03:37 [hta]
"the conference is restricted at this time". ??
16:03:40 [Zakim]
+??P30
16:03:54 [francois]
zakim, code?
16:03:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78294 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), francois
16:04:05 [burn]
hta, try again. if you still have trouble, ask the operator to connect you
16:04:28 [hta]
holding for operator....
16:04:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.961.aadd
16:04:36 [hta]
ah. I got the wrong conference #.
16:05:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.241.aaee
16:05:19 [hta]
made it!
16:05:21 [derf]
hta: The agenda link in the topic is out-of-date.
16:05:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.421.aaff
16:05:25 [francois]
zakim, aadd is Tim
16:05:25 [Zakim]
+Tim; got it
16:05:35 [hta]
Yes, it is.....
16:05:48 [derf]
I made the same mistake.
16:05:58 [francois]
zakim, aacc is probably Christophe
16:05:58 [Zakim]
+Christophe?; got it
16:06:02 [hta]
zakim, aaee is me
16:06:02 [Zakim]
+hta; got it
16:06:16 [francois]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, francois, [Mozilla], Alissa, Caroline, Cary, Christophe?, ??P30, Tim, hta, +1.408.421.aaff
16:06:20 [cullenfluffyjenni]
cullenfluffyjenni has joined #webrtc
16:06:35 [anant]
Zakim, [Mozilla] is Anant
16:06:35 [Zakim]
+Anant; got it
16:06:38 [ceyrigno]
ceyrigno is christophe (eyrignoux) from france telecom
16:07:57 [Zakim]
-Dan_Burnett
16:08:28 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:08:34 [burn]
zakim, ??P5 is Dan_Burnett
16:08:34 [Zakim]
+Dan_Burnett; got it
16:08:42 [cullenfluffyjenni]
John Elwell on phone only
16:08:48 [steely_glint]
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16:08:49 [hta]
zakim, ??P30 is John Elwell
16:08:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P30 is John Elwell', hta
16:09:00 [francois]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see francois, Anant, Alissa, Caroline, Cary, Christophe?, ??P30, Tim (muted), hta, +1.408.421.aaff, Dan_Burnett
16:09:13 [francois]
zakim, ??P30 is JohnElwell
16:09:13 [Zakim]
+JohnElwell; got it
16:09:16 [cullenfluffyjenni]
+1.408.421.aaff is me Cullen Jennings
16:09:21 [Cary]
Cary == Cary Bran
16:09:31 [burn]
zakim, aaff is Cullen_Jennings
16:09:31 [Zakim]
+Cullen_Jennings; got it
16:09:46 [francois]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see francois, Anant, Alissa, Caroline, Cary, Christophe?, JohnElwell, Tim (muted), hta, Cullen_Jennings, Dan_Burnett
16:10:01 [steely_glint]
I have no idea what my callerid will be, but I'm Tim Panton == steely_glint
16:11:30 [steely_glint]
I've contributed on the mailinglist. but I don't expect to speak.
16:12:04 [steely_glint]
tim@phonefromhere.com Phnefromhere.com Ltd
16:12:34 [cullenfluffyjenni]
John Elwell from siemens-enterprise.com
16:12:43 [francois]
scribe: francois
16:13:39 [francois]
harald: 3 things on the agenda today: requirements, APIs and inputs for the Quebec city meeting.
16:13:45 [francois]
... Anything to add to the agenda?
16:14:10 [francois]
[nothing heard]
16:14:14 [francois]
Topic: Requirements document
16:14:26 [francois]
harald: Stefan sent a draft requirements document to the list just before the meeting.
16:14:35 [francois]
... on the 10th.
16:14:43 [francois]
... Anyone seen the document?
16:15:10 [francois]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2011Jul/0008.html Stefan's announcement email
16:15:26 [burn]
Doc is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2011Jul/att-0008/webrtc_reqs.html
16:15:34 [francois]
???: I'm all for adopting it as a working document.
16:15:46 [anant]
??? is anant
16:15:54 [francois]
s/???/anant/
16:16:18 [francois]
harald: anyone seen it who doesn't like it?
16:16:48 [francois]
... I think we need to be careful about it. I would like to ask everyone to read carefully the document.
16:16:54 [francois]
... Any comment should be sent to the list.
16:17:32 [francois]
... We probably need some precise definitions.
16:17:47 [francois]
Cary: are DTMF not required? Handled differently?
16:18:18 [francois]
Harald: I don't see a requirement for DTMF here. The text got extracted from the one in IETF where DTMF was added afterwards.
16:18:26 [francois]
... Please send a comment about it on the mailing-list.
16:18:28 [francois]
Cary: ok.
16:18:38 [francois]
Topic: APIs
16:19:17 [francois]
Harald: 3 pieces following our call for proposals: one was a pointer to the WHATWG section. One was a pointer to the 2 specs of the Audio WG.
16:19:29 [francois]
... One of them being build on the PeerConnection proposal.
16:19:51 [francois]
... The final one is from Cisco, built from PeerConnection but suggesting some changes.
16:19:55 [francois]
... Any other things?
16:20:14 [francois]
??2: Fair summary, I think.
16:20:28 [hta]
??2 = Cullen
16:20:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.778.785.aagg
16:20:37 [francois]
s/??2/Cullen/g
16:21:05 [francois]
zakim, aagg is Ralph
16:21:05 [Zakim]
+Ralph; got it
16:22:16 [francois]
Cary: We tried to explain the differences from the WHATWG proposal. Comments received are good.
16:22:38 [anant]
s/Cary/Anant
16:23:35 [francois]
Cullen: one of the things I was hoping to discuss today is ???. Discussion with Ian.
16:24:22 [francois]
... All the options we added are by no means the default. The examples we put on the Wiki page are simple use cases.
16:24:42 [francois]
... For more sophisticated use cases, we should provide more precise controls.
16:24:57 [francois]
... That's a fundamental difference between our proposal and WHATWG proposal,
16:25:10 [francois]
... so feedback is very much welcome on level of exposure we should give to Web apps.
16:25:32 [anant]
s/.../Anant
16:27:02 [francois]
Anant: I think it's probably useful to add extensibility mechanisms for future use cases.
16:27:11 [anant]
s/Anant/Cary
16:27:13 [anant]
:)
16:28:41 [francois]
Cary: we want things to be the same in all browsers.
16:28:43 [francois]
Harald: to me it seems kind of obvious that if the machine cannot figure things by itself, then we need to provide the mechanism to provide the info.
16:30:09 [francois]
Cary: The stack does have voice detection capabilities. In the Google stack, it will guess. But we need more experience.
16:30:36 [Cary]
Francois - Cullen is speaking not me
16:30:38 [francois]
??4: there are use cases where the application needs to tell the browser things it cannot determine by itself.
16:31:15 [francois]
s/Cary:/Cullen:/
16:32:27 [Cary]
:)
16:33:47 [francois]
[discussion about something possibly missing in ICE, following exchanges with Ian.]
16:33:53 [francois]
[Scribe missed last technical comments, feel free to make your points on IRC]
16:34:36 [francois]
Cullen: 3 people talking to each other. We could do it in different ways, with one, two or 3 PeerConnection objects.
16:35:31 [francois]
Cullen: It seems to me that the API is not clear on how to handle multiple streams.
16:35:47 [francois]
... Mapping between RTP level and API is not clear.
16:36:40 [francois]
Harald: with audio and video going on different RTP sessions, you do need multiple ICE connections inside a PeerConnection.
16:37:30 [francois]
??4: a PeerConnection can handle multiple streams which can contain multiple tracks, is that correct?
16:37:35 [francois]
[sounds correct]
16:38:43 [francois]
Cullen: question on the table for the group is: do we want separate PeerConnection objects to talk to different peers, or one PeerConnection can be reused?
16:39:12 [francois]
Harald: with current proposals, you can send multiple streams to multiple PeerConnection objects.
16:39:56 [francois]
??5: there could be a PeerConnection factory that creates the PeerConnection objects dynamically. Don't have strong preferences, but has to be expressed.
16:40:07 [anant]
s/??5/Anant
16:40:54 [francois]
Harald: the way we so far have gone with the specification and negotiation protocols is that listening is not well-defined.
16:41:23 [francois]
... You can do anything you want to get the negotiation blob which you hand over to the PeerConnection.
16:42:34 [francois]
Cullen: The assumption I make is that browsers know what they can do with the blob.
16:43:27 [francois]
??6: It seems that we're pushing for a lot of code to be run server-side. Has the group discussed whether it's better than doing things more P2P?
16:44:00 [francois]
... I've not been following the details, just joined here.
16:44:14 [steely_glint]
Are we _sure_ we couldn't implement a SIP client in javascript based on the API.
16:44:39 [francois]
... If we're going to implement an entire SIP stack anyway...
16:45:09 [francois]
[Jingle mentioned]
16:45:38 [francois]
??6: Jingle relies on presence status. Something missing from current proposals.
16:45:43 [steely_glint]
jingle presence can be done entirely in the browser.
16:46:35 [francois]
Cullen: possible race condition in WHATWG spec, can someone enlighten me?
16:46:47 [francois]
Harald: is there a JavaScript expert in the room? I don't think so.
16:47:22 [francois]
Cullen: Right now in the WHATWG, you create a PeerConnection object, and then wait for the callback. There's something to avoid a race connection but I don't understand how it works.
16:48:52 [francois]
Tim: I'm not a JavaScript expert, but my assumption was that these kind of transitions can only happen in a stable state. You have time to set the callback. The browser continues to execute the script.
16:49:17 [francois]
... That may just be a point that needs to be clarified, but could be what Ian is talking about.
16:50:48 [francois]
Cullen: Obviously, we all agree that they cannot be a race condition. If the way to solve it in JavaScript is as specified, then good. I just don't want any race condition.
16:51:13 [francois]
ACTION: RalphJiles to consult a JavaScript expert on race condition
16:51:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - RalphJiles
16:51:24 [derf]
Ralph Giles.
16:51:42 [francois]
s/RalphJiles/RalphGiles/
16:52:12 [francois]
harald: I think that the consensus we're reaching is that the API that we'll end up with will be based on the WHATWG proposal.
16:52:21 [francois]
... and the details need to be discussed on the mailing-list.
16:52:48 [francois]
??8: "based on" means "reference" or "define a similar API"?
16:52:59 [burn]
s/??8/Cullen/
16:53:09 [francois]
Harald: my understanding is that our aim is to end up with a single document.
16:53:10 [rillian]
rillian has joined #webrtc
16:53:21 [francois]
... I would like to explore offline exactly how we do the editing.
16:53:54 [francois]
Dan: There needs to be a W3C document for this to progress in W3C. It needs to be written as a W3C working draft.
16:54:55 [francois]
[discussion on document format, editor's draft for internal group's discussions, then public working draft when group is ready to publish it. That's really the first time when the external world "sees" the proposal?]
16:55:06 [francois]
q+
16:55:19 [francois]
ack francois
16:56:06 [Salvatore]
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16:57:16 [francois]
francois: [mentions WebRTC wiki as a possible way to edit the document. No need for more formal submission]
16:57:32 [Zakim]
+??P14
16:57:39 [francois]
??9: I second the Wiki format.
16:57:47 [francois]
Harald: ok, good progress here.
16:57:52 [francois]
Topic: Quebec meeting
16:58:50 [marc]
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16:58:51 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/47318/webrtc-f2f-quebec/results Temp results of F2F Registration poll
16:59:03 [marc]
marc has left #webrtc
16:59:08 [anant]
I'm sorry I have to hop out for another meeting, but we've concluded the API discussion (we can followup further on the mailing list)
16:59:09 [anant]
thanks
16:59:17 [rillian]
thanks, anant
16:59:21 [Zakim]
-Anant
16:59:49 [francois]
francois: 31 people registered so far. Please do so in the next couple of days if you still haven't done so.
17:00:01 [francois]
harald: ok, so action item for everyone here.
17:00:31 [Zakim]
-Christophe?
17:00:42 [francois]
... If there are things you want to see on the agenda, please bring them to the mailing-list.
17:00:49 [francois]
... Any other business?
17:01:09 [francois]
[silence heard]
17:01:40 [francois]
[meeting adjourned by consensus :)]
17:01:42 [Zakim]
-Cary
17:01:45 [Zakim]
-Dan_Burnett
17:01:46 [Zakim]
-Tim
17:01:46 [Zakim]
-JohnElwell
17:01:48 [Zakim]
-Alissa
17:01:48 [Zakim]
-Ralph
17:01:48 [Zakim]
-francois
17:01:49 [Zakim]
-Cullen_Jennings
17:01:51 [Zakim]
-??P14
17:01:53 [Zakim]
-hta
17:01:55 [Zakim]
-Caroline
17:01:57 [Zakim]
UW_(Real-Time)12:00PM has ended
17:01:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were Dan_Burnett, francois, Alissa, +44.190.881.aaaa, Caroline, +1.206.256.aabb, +44.190.881.aacc, Cary, +1.650.961.aadd, +1.650.241.aaee, +1.408.421.aaff, Tim,
17:02:02 [Zakim]
... Christophe?, hta, Anant, JohnElwell, Cullen_Jennings, +1.778.785.aagg, Ralph
17:02:02 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-webrtc-minutes.html francois
17:09:02 [cullenfluffyjenni]
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17:11:26 [rillian_]
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17:14:07 [francois]
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17:14:26 [francois]
RRSAgent, bye
17:14:26 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-webrtc-actions.rdf :
17:14:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: RalphJiles to consult a JavaScript expert on race condition [1]
17:14:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-webrtc-irc#T16-51-13
17:14:28 [francois]
zakim, bye
17:14:28 [Zakim]
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