14:35:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
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14:35:07 <judy> agenda+ action item check
14:35:07 <judy> agenda+ discussion of Josh's draft response on table summary http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary
14:35:07 <judy> agenda+ meta name=generator: discussion of proposed response to latest questions
14:35:07 <judy> agenda+ longdesc, update on follow up to counter proposals (comments expected)
14:35:07 <judy> agenda+ figcaption, discussion of draft proposal (draft expected)
14:35:09 <judy> agenda+ location of alt guidance (draft in progress)
14:35:11 <judy> agenda+ other business?
14:35:12 <judy> agenda+ confirm actions, timelines, next meetings; identify next scribe; adjourn.
14:35:45 <judy> zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)
14:35:45 <judy> meeting: HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference
14:35:45 <judy> chair:	Judy_Brewer
14:35:45 <Zakim> ok, judy; I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM scheduled to start in 55 minutes
15:22:33 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #text
15:26:59 <judy> hi Josh -- will you be able to join the call today? thanks for the table summary work
15:27:20 <Joshue> Hi Judy
15:27:33 <Joshue> Yes, I will for about 30 mins or so.
15:27:46 <Joshue> You are very welcome, I hope its is useful. Still Work in progress..
15:28:07 <Zakim> WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has now started
15:28:12 <Zakim> +Judy
15:29:16 <janina> janina has joined #text
15:29:42 <Zakim> +??P5
15:29:54 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #text
15:30:53 <judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:30:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, ??P5
15:31:18 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:31:20 <Joshue_2> Joshue_2 has joined #text
15:31:38 <judy> zakim, ??P5 is Janina
15:31:38 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:31:51 <Zakim> +??P7
15:32:19 <richardschwerdtfe> zakim, ??P7 is Steve
15:32:19 <Zakim> +Steve; got it
15:32:26 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #text
15:33:41 <Zakim> +Lynn_Holdsworth
15:33:51 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
15:34:16 <Joshue_2> +442033180479
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15:35:17 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
15:35:32 <richardschwerdtfe> Agenda?
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15:35:50 <Zakim> +Joshue
15:36:03 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:36:10 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we have  quite an agenda
15:36:10 <Zakim> +??P12
15:36:18 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Table summary
15:36:32 <richardschwerdtfe> zakim, ??P12 is Leonie
15:36:32 <Zakim> +Leonie; got it
15:37:01 <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary
15:37:19 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: send text directly to the accessibility task force
15:37:35 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: I suspect only a few have looked at it
15:37:48 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: from a form perspective it will need to start as a reopen request
15:38:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: It is not doing anything new 
15:38:23 <janina> q+
15:39:12 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: We need to take the direction on table summary, and any misunderstandings, include it and go through it step by step. We then offer a specific change proposal
15:39:34 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: We have a confirmed offer to get a pre-technical review and walk through wrt. their rules of the road
15:40:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Josue: Katie Harish-O-Shay agreed to view
15:40:35 <judy> s/Harish-O-Shay/Haritos-Shea/
15:41:06 <LJW> q+
15:41:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: I just wanted to underscore that in making their decisions you don't need table summary as there are newer alternatives. We just need to target where it won't work and why we need to keep it
15:41:22 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: We need examples and appropriate good use. 
15:41:43 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: It is a chicken and egg. Finding use cases in the wild is tough.
15:42:00 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: Katie started finding in the wild use cases
15:42:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: OK
15:43:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Josue: the examples are in the spec. but they are not that good. Adding a simple summary would have improved the spec. itself.
15:43:17 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: that is a nice example
15:43:55 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: if you give it focus the AT has no features for processing that ...
15:44:14 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: While it is obvious to you it is not obvious to some others
15:44:27 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I can do that
15:44:31 <JF> JF has joined #text
15:44:45 <richardschwerdtfe> Leonie: If you want a pair of hands to help give me a shout
15:44:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: any real world examples you have would be a help
15:45:26 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Janina: the stuff Katie was doing ... Can we get Katie to put this on the list
15:45:34 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: ?
15:45:44 <richardschwerdtfe> janina: we need Katie to join the HTML working group
15:45:54 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: I will follow up with Katie on that
15:46:25 <judy> s/?/Can we get Katie to post her examples to the list/
15:46:49 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Can people, while Joshue is here take advantage of it and look through what he has
15:46:59 <Joshue_2> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary
15:47:13 <judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:47:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Steve, Lynn_Holdsworth, Joshue, John_Foliot, Leonie
15:47:16 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: any objection to a walk through?
15:47:52 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: The beginning of this would be a reopen request
15:47:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: right
15:48:22 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Laura had sent some notes that were specific to what the decision policy says. ... Rational, etc.
15:48:36 <judy> (fyi: rational --> rationale)
15:48:38 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: This proposal does not have that but it is coming
15:48:59 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:48:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Steve, Lynn_Holdsworth, Joshue, John_Foliot, Leonie
15:49:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, Lynn_Holdsworth, LJW, Stevef, Joshue_2, richardschwerdtfe, janina, Joshue, RRSAgent, Zakim, judy
15:49:21 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: then there is the details 
15:49:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Problems are stated and there is an impact section
15:49:53 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I think it would be better if restructured
15:50:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: on impact, this is impact of the change that is proposed.
15:50:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve, that is the impact of the change
15:51:46 <richardschwerdtfe> John: the one thing we had with longdesc we had a lot of examples of rationale and we were able to link to them
15:52:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: You want a somewhat concise argument for reopening
15:52:20 <richardschwerdtfe> John: supporting documents as it were
15:53:25 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: I am wondering what people think. We don't have arguments where we have already prevailed
15:53:56 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I think has been an example of culling the attribute
15:54:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we need to rebut with a compelling argument
15:54:58 <JF> +Q
15:54:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: time lag is a problem
15:55:42 <judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html
15:55:48 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: if it is in their decision we must address it here
15:56:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: this table summary proposal needs to address everything in there
15:56:33 <richardschwerdtfe> John: one of the things we had with longdesc is the whole discoverability
15:56:50 <judy> ack ja
15:56:52 <richardschwerdtfe> John: This would only be discoverable by screen readers as Rich pointed out. 
15:56:54 <judy> ack ljw
15:56:57 <judy> ack jf
15:57:07 <richardschwerdtfe> John: that was one of the stronger point that we have
15:57:20 <janina> q+
15:57:54 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: what is this additional info
15:58:08 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we have to reiterate our arguments every time
15:59:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I may need help with the formatting
15:59:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Janina, you will be taking a look format wise?
16:00:45 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we should try to have something for next Monday's call with  a final submittal for 2 weeks
16:01:40 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy, we should be focusing our attention on the reopen request.
16:02:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: It may be onerous to both at the same time
16:02:29 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:02:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Joshue: I need to run and I know what I need to do
16:02:45 <Joshue_2> bye y'all I'll start this work asap
16:02:46 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: that was agenda item 2
16:02:47 <Stevef> q+
16:04:34 <richardschwerdtfe> janina: we have the hidden metadat red herring and the aria-describedy discussion
16:04:41 <JF> +Q
16:04:52 <judy> ack ja
16:04:53 <richardschwerdtfe> judy: I would like to see a piece written on each
16:04:56 <judy> q+
16:05:19 <richardschwerdtfe> Stevef: I need to leave soon but I wanted to say I have done some work on the meta generator
16:05:25 <Stevef> zakim, ack stevef
16:05:25 <Zakim> I see JF, judy on the speaker queue
16:05:40 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Why don't we put that aside and take up the metagenerator
16:05:52 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I was to collaborate with John but have not yet
16:06:07 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I started on a change proposal
16:06:24 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
16:06:27 <judy> s/discussion/discussion; both are red herrings; perhaps we should ask the chairs to issue decisions on each since they are large parts of many of our issues/
16:06:40 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I started to write a rational with new arguments
16:06:58 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Meta generator
16:07:30 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: When I started to look into it it says you are using an authoring tool. None of the pages are actually just using an authoring tool
16:08:04 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: In most cases you don't wanted it to forced into conforming content. I think there are reasonably strong arguments against meta generator
16:08:24 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: At this point we need to feed back into what you have here
16:08:44 <richardschwerdtfe> John: At this point we need to feed back into what you have here
16:09:10 <richardschwerdtfe> John: Mike Smith said this seemed like an unintended consequence
16:09:20 <richardschwerdtfe> John: the meta tag has adverse consequences
16:09:27 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I will continue working on it
16:09:37 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I will move things out to another page
16:09:51 <richardschwerdtfe> John: I will find some time this week
16:10:20 <richardschwerdtfe> SteveF: I have been doing on my own. Are my arguments and directions accurate?
16:10:35 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Any additional reactions to Steve's question?
16:11:03 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I am fine with the way Steve is proceeding
16:11:18 <richardschwerdtfe> John: Maciej did respond
16:11:41 <richardschwerdtfe> John: some of the things Leif had submitted was  a little shot gun
16:12:52 <richardschwerdtfe> John: I am still trying to get that link
16:13:16 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: before we wrap are there any other questions Steve?
16:13:35 <JF> Maciej's Response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0063.html
16:13:49 <Zakim> -Steve
16:14:15 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: this is good as I can point Joshue to this
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16:15:34 <judy> agenda?
16:15:47 <judy> zakim, close item 2
16:15:51 <judy> zakim, close item 3
16:16:00 <Zakim> agendum 2, discussion of Josh's draft response on table summary http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary, closed
16:16:06 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:07 <Zakim> 1. action item check [from judy]
16:16:09 <Zakim> agendum 3, meta name=generator: discussion of proposed response to latest questions, closed
16:16:12 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:14 <Zakim> 1. action item check [from judy]
16:16:25 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Longdesc
16:16:33 <richardschwerdtfe> John: we have 2 counter proposals
16:16:49 <richardschwerdtfe> John: Matt is saying no change. It is an opinion piece
16:17:19 <richardschwerdtfe> John: the response form Jonas is that he wants to reenvision describedby to hide content off screen
16:17:59 <richardschwerdtfe> John: rich explained. 
16:18:51 <richardschwerdtfe> John: we need to refute notions of aria-describedby
16:19:13 <richardschwerdtfe> John: Jonas is trying to reenvision aria describedby to address the problem
16:20:14 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: you would have redesign accessibility apis and ATs to address this
16:22:44 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: one of the question I was asking everyone ... there were not that many overlaps
16:24:04 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
16:24:14 <JF> ack jf
16:24:21 <JF> +Q
16:24:29 <janina> q+
16:24:35 <judy> ack ju
16:25:13 <JF> RS: provided JF with a very detailed overview of the ARIA Mappings to the various APIs
16:25:26 <JF> it was very clear
16:25:46 <JF> In order for a browser to process something that is hidden, it has to be in the tab order
16:25:55 <JF> we have a similar problem in canvas
16:26:15 <JF> if you put it in tab order, you need tabindex
16:26:24 <JF> if it is in the tab order, you must somewhow render it
16:26:39 <JF> that is why we have things like focusring in canvas
16:26:56 <JF> but with an arbitrary element such as video, there is nothing there, and the user gets lost
16:27:42 <JF> so the way to solve this is to make the content visible - which is what we are looking to support with longdesc now
16:28:20 <judy> q+
16:31:21 <richardschwerdtfe> John: The one thing that you said is there are times where you do not want the text to be visible
16:31:32 <richardschwerdtfe> John: bubble text
16:31:48 <richardschwerdtfe> John: the details of summary ..
16:32:08 <richardschwerdtfe> John: aria-describedby can be use some of the time for this
16:33:39 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I am not suggesting this generically but for reasons of the user allow the end user to render the description
16:34:24 <richardschwerdtfe> John: the way the user does this then the user agent renders it to the user. 
16:34:45 <judy> q?
16:34:56 <judy> ack ri
16:34:59 <judy> ack jf
16:38:42 <judy> js: it needs to be discoverable
16:38:53 <judy> ...and when it's rendered, it needs to be rich
16:41:21 <judy> rich: need to show an in-context visual indicator.... isn't there a plug-in?
16:41:40 <Laura> Laura has joined #text
16:41:44 <judy> john: something available that gives a detailed tag
16:42:03 <Laura> Hi
16:42:10 <judy> john: starting to see 3rd party solutions as plug-ins 
16:42:30 <judy> rich: starting to see plug-ins for hit description
16:43:06 <judy> s/hit/hidden/
16:43:10 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
16:43:36 <JF> http://blog.ginader.de/dev/jquery/longdesc/examples/webaim/index.php 
16:46:52 <Laura> Browser Discoverability of longdesc: http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/ld-ua.html
16:47:52 <janina> scribe: janina
16:48:34 <janina> rich: Suggest on video tag some kind of visible mechanism to indicate availability of additional data
16:49:02 <janina> rich: Put focus on that container could allow a screen reader to start reading that content
16:49:29 <janina> rich: Press ESC to dismiss and return to default rendering without the additional data
16:49:45 <janina> jf: Only question is trigger to expose that context
16:49:55 <janina> jf: Should be a user option
16:51:08 <janina> janina: In the case of video, we have two additional data aspects, perhaps the user would only want one auto shown, and the second exposed only by trigger action
16:51:56 <janina> rich: So, to look from the browser perspective, the fallback approach
16:52:04 <janina> rich: We're really saying the same thing
16:52:17 <janina> rich: It's visible only when the user wants it
16:52:41 <janina> rich: Context menu is one possibility
16:53:45 <janina> jf: So trigger mechanism is on focus and does something to make the existence of additional data visible on focus
16:53:49 <janina> Rich: Yes
16:54:39 <janina> jb: How do we pull this all together so it's clearly articulated in one place?
16:55:21 <janina> jf: Happy to take what I've already started with Jonas and take it to a Wiki
16:56:26 <janina> Rich: First part is clarifying what aria-describedby can, and cannot provide; second part is good use cases for aria-describedby
16:59:09 <janina> janina: Want to add to our list of global issues to take up with HTML; Hidden metadata, appropriate expectations of ARIA-Describedby; A11y isn't just screen readers; Not every a11y tech needs to also be a curbcut mainstream solution ...
16:59:19 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
16:59:31 <janina> Rich: I do believe the additional data on video is also a curbcut
16:59:54 <richardschwerdtfe> RSSAgent, make log public
17:00:09 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSagent, draft minutes
17:00:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/11-text-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
17:00:22 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent, makelog public
17:00:22 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'makelog public', richardschwerdtfe.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:00:32 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent, make log public
17:00:37 <Zakim> -Leonie
17:00:41 <Zakim> -Lynn_Holdsworth
17:00:47 <richardschwerdtfe> zakim, bye
17:00:47 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Judy, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Steve, Lynn_Holdsworth, Joshue, John_Foliot, Leonie, Laura_Carlson
17:00:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
17:01:03 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:01:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/11-text-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
17:02:40 <judy> judy has joined #text
17:03:01 <judy>  judy: will add to the question queue for HTML WG Chairs the need for a decision format in which to address recurring conceptual misunderstandings on accessibility.
17:03:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #text
17:03:26 <judy>  judy: will add to the question queue for HTML WG Chairs the need for a decision format in which to address recurring conceptual misunderstandings on accessibility.
17:03:44 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/11-text-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
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