20:01:26 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:01:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-irc 20:01:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:01:28 Zakim has joined #svg 20:01:30 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:01:30 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start now 20:01:31 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:01:31 Date: 07 July 2011 20:02:20 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started 20:02:28 +??P4 20:02:30 Zakim, ??P4 is me 20:02:30 +heycam; got it 20:02:49 +Doug_Schepers 20:02:50 + +1.408.839.aaaa 20:03:06 +[IPcaller] 20:03:14 Zakim, [IP is me 20:03:14 +ed; got it 20:04:41 Zakim: +1.408 is me 20:05:31 agenda+ Canvas Accessibility 20:07:49 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:07:49 On the phone I see heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.839.aaaa, ed 20:08:23 Zakim, aaaa is Tim_Horton 20:08:23 +Tim_Horton; got it 20:09:24 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0007.html 20:09:28 Chair: Cameron 20:09:37 scribeNick: ed 20:10:31 Topic: TPAC 2011 registration 20:10:33 http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ 20:10:45 CM: recently opened, it's in november 20:11:06 ... wanted to clarify when the meeting will be? 20:11:41 ED: svgopen is October 17 to 20, 2011 20:12:05 ... TPAC is 31 October to 4 November 2011 20:12:36 DS: there is some overlap in the dates for SVG, Webapps and (missed bit) 20:12:44 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/ 20:12:52 CM: it says SVG may move to thu-fri 20:12:55 shepazu, http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ 20:13:31 ED: would like to know when we'll meet at TPAC, mon-tue or thu-fri 20:13:54 CM, DS: would prefer thu-fri 20:14:03 ED: that's fine with me 20:14:25 CM: if we ask them to swap to thu-fri that wouldn't cause any conflicts? 20:15:06 ... maybe SVG was put mon-tue to not overlap with HTMLWG 20:15:20 DS: will see if we can get it changed to thu-fri 20:17:27 Topic: FX charter items 20:17:47 CM: vincent mailed the sheet with the latest discussions we had 20:17:56 ... and CL said CSSWG was happy with those 20:18:10 ... so both groups can move forward with chartering 20:18:35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0008.html 20:19:25 FTR this was the proposal from the svg wg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/att-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.html 20:19:46 DS: will get to it this week, certainly before the next meeting 20:19:59 ... anything we need to discuss wrt that? 20:21:50 CM: is there an FX call before the F2F? 20:22:02 ED: might be good, will send out an agenda for next monday 20:24:48 DS: the pointer-event spec hasn't been updated lately, maybe we need a status update 20:24:56 CM: might be only on www-style 20:25:35 CM: TH are you attending the F2F in Seattle? 20:25:47 TH: I might 20:27:27 CM: another reminder for people to put their agenda items on the wikipage 20:27:53 Topic: opentype / svgfonts 20:28:49 CM: on the call last week we had a generally positive response to the proposal 20:29:18 ... i think it would be good to send a response on the mailinglist, perhaps an offer to work together 20:30:02 DS: i'm interesting doing more advanced fonts 20:31:52 ED: i do like the markup way, as already speced, to be able to mix the content and do dynamic updates 20:32:08 ... but I do see the positive aspects of the proposal 20:32:19 ... it's just another way to encapsulate the font 20:33:21 CM: the proposal does seem to allow you to do dynamic stuff, but with a wrapper and do some binary stuff 20:33:49 ... point being, it's possible but not simple, to modify the font data 20:34:17 ... i think it does move to dynamic in-document manipulation 20:35:32 DS: interpreting and rendering the font is the bulk of the work, the serialization is relatively minor 20:36:00 ... if this is an acceptable format that everyone supports then we can try to solve the serialization problem later if appropriate 20:36:17 CM: i agree with that 20:36:58 ... whenever we expose lower level apis javascript library authors tend to make some nice abstractions from them 20:37:23 s/javascript library authors/ninja javascript library authors/ 20:37:35 ... bringing this topic up was to ask how the group should respond to the thread 20:37:56 DS: i think we should offer to help, and send a positive response 20:38:58 ED: adding another serialization of svgfonts is fine with me 20:39:49 ACTION: CM to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group 20:39:49 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - CM 20:39:49 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. charles, cmccorma) 20:39:59 ACTION: Cameron to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group 20:39:59 Created ACTION-3060 - Respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-14]. 20:40:15 Topic: SVG 1.1 second edition 20:40:39 CM: today is the last day to respond to the AC review survey 20:41:24 ... only complaint is about references and relaxng/dtd 20:42:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0009.html 20:43:27 CM: the DTD files in our repo were modified in the first LC? 20:43:28 ED: yes 20:43:44 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd 20:44:11 CM: what were the changes we made? 20:44:21 ED: see the cvs changelog link above 20:45:07 DS: the rng would be informative? 20:45:10 CM: right 20:45:23 ... so i don't think it's needed with the REC itself 20:45:31 ... so we haven't made one 20:45:53 ... we could say someone will make an RNG 20:46:03 ... i think CL was going to talk to him about this 20:46:11 and murata-san was going to make one 20:46:16 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd 20:47:17 previous REC linked to http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-flat-20030114.dtd 20:47:31 ED: it's in a different location from the spec itself 20:48:42 CM: might make sense to install the modified DTD there too 20:49:16 DS: that works for me 20:50:02 ... will check if we can make a change to add the informative reference when we move to REC 20:50:16 CM: we need the published REC date in the url anyway 20:50:27 ...and we need a new errata document to link to too 20:50:37 ... so I expect such changes to be possible 20:51:11 ACTION: cameron to copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 20:51:12 Created ACTION-3061 - Copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-14]. 20:52:08 CM: how do we proceed after today with moving to REC? 20:53:01 DS: *reading process document* 20:54:26 ... assume CL and I will take care of it 20:55:11 ... we'll get the documents in the right place and publish 20:55:35 topic: canvas accessibility 20:56:05 http://schepers.cc/retain-a11y-immediately 20:56:25 DS: that's my proposal 20:56:35 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas_Accessibility_Use_Cases 20:56:55 DS: there has been a long discussion the canvas mailinglist 20:57:20 ... rich schwerdfeger claims svg is not accessible 20:57:39 ... canvas is an immidiate mode api, svg is a retained mode api 20:57:52 ... they want to add retained mode characteristics to canvas 20:58:21 ... primary use-case is so that screenreaders / magnifiers you'd be able to find it and zoom 20:58:33 ... whatever you need to zoom on 20:59:48 ... charles pritchard suggested to make a subtree (you can tuck in elements inside the canvas element and that's invisible but can be exposed to a11y tools) 21:00:02 ... e.g a dropdown 21:00:15 ... other aspects of the subtree is that it can retain text 21:00:25 ... you'd have to do it manually 21:00:42 CM: you'd have to manually mirror the content 21:00:55 ... some proposals had some automated parts in it 21:01:24 DS: the functionality allows you to make an accessible html version of whatever you made in canvas 21:01:36 ... personally i think it's barking up the wrong tree 21:02:13 ... when it was just functional things, say a form control in canvas that you then made an accessible equivalent of that 21:02:29 ... but then it's also the shape of the thing, the boundingbox of the form control 21:02:40 ... and that's when people said this is svg 21:03:04 ... instead of making an svg-like thing, why not just use svg? 21:03:25 ... you can already layer svg on top of canvas 21:04:08 ... you can integrate svg and canvas on the rendering level, and you could put the svg either in the dom, or in the subtree underneath the canvas, or you could put it in the dom and reflect it in the subtree 21:04:59 ... either put it in the dom, or in the subtree-dom, or a pointer to the subtree dom 21:05:07 CM: not sure i follow 21:05:13 ... the last part 21:05:28 DS: you could e.g put an svg:use element to link to something 21:06:34 CM: what is the distinction? 21:07:30 DS: if you put in svg elements they could render to the canvas 21:07:42 ... but it would have all the location information 21:07:49 CM: the inverse of that seems logical 21:08:00 ... having canvaslike things inside an svg tree 21:08:13 ... a pixelbased container 21:08:42 DS: right, that's been discussed before, drawing using the canvas api to an svg:image element for example 21:09:01 CM: that is closer to their main use-case i think 21:09:55 ... make widgets in svg 21:10:40 DS: two vendors have already said that they don't want to do retainedmode functionality to canvas, since there's already svg 21:10:53 s/to do/to add/ 21:11:28 CM: in the proposals you'd have to do manual work to get things accessible 21:12:08 ... doing something more complex with WAI and ARIA is what we need to do 21:13:19 DS: CM your aria-region idea was reasonable 21:13:52 ... curious, how would we like to see svg and canvas mixed? and would it satisfy the usecases the a11y ppl are looking at 21:14:35 CM: probably we'd get back that svg isn't accessible yet, or if it's enough to allow aria attributes on all svg elements or if we need to do more 21:14:50 DS: we probably have to do a bit more 21:15:03 ... first we have the logical form controls 21:15:10 ... then you have the geometric information 21:15:39 ... maybe they want to have the geometric info completely separate from the logical / navigation order stuff and functionality of the form controls 21:16:06 CM: right, in the subtree theyr'e using aria attributes to have form controls as values and tab order 21:16:20 ... the region where they're painted on the canvas is defined in another way 21:16:31 DS: they're trying to accomplish different things 21:16:44 ... whole thing seems like a kludge 21:17:10 ... best thing we can do as a group 21:17:52 ... with their proposal you'd have to maintain the dom yourself and mirror the logics 21:18:50 ... it seems theyre willing to settle for different but equal, but if you have to maintain it yourself it's going to be worse than if you have an api that allows you to do both immidiate mode and retained mode graphics 21:20:05 ... with my API you'd say if you wanted retained or not when you use the API 21:20:24 CM: so you can use the smae painting calls? 21:20:29 DS: yes 21:21:28 ... if you have an asteroids game you have lots of objects that you need to track but they're not possible to interact with, until they get close enough to interact with, at which point you say now i want retained mode 21:22:28 ... i think what people liked the most was the idea of only having to learn one api for canvas and svg, even if there are some differences between the two 21:23:19 ... would like to have a discussion on canvas/svg integration 21:24:02 CM: good topic for the F2F? 21:24:42 DS: yes 21:25:33 ... they may be thinking of full svg implementation compared to canvas implementation in thirdparty products, and then tipping over in favor of a simpler model 21:25:52 ... not necessarily involving browsers 21:26:28 ... however if it's meant to be proprietary then why force it on everyone? 21:27:20 -heycam 21:28:02 DS: will write up some use-cases around this and put it on the svg wiki 21:28:12 ... and we can discuss it at the f2f 21:28:27 -Tim_Horton 21:28:27 Zakim, who's here? 21:28:28 On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, ed 21:28:29 On IRC I see RRSAgent, karl, thorton, shepazu, ed, heycam|away, trackbot 21:29:18 phone's down! 21:31:01 -ed 21:31:03 -Doug_Schepers 21:31:03 GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended 21:31:05 Attendees were heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.839.aaaa, [IPcaller], ed, Tim_Horton 21:31:10 nope, all good, heycam 21:31:12 Zakim, end telcon 21:31:12 I don't understand 'end telcon', ed 21:31:31 trackbot, end telcon 21:31:31 Zakim, list attendees 21:31:31 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 21:31:31 RRSAgent, end telcon 21:31:31 I'm logging. I don't understand 'end telcon', ed. Try /msg RRSAgent help 21:31:32 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 21:31:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html trackbot 21:31:33 RRSAgent, bye 21:31:33 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-actions.rdf : 21:31:33 ACTION: CM to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [1] 21:31:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-irc#T20-39-49 21:31:33 ACTION: Cameron to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [2] 21:31:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-irc#T20-39-59 21:31:33 ACTION: cameron to copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [3] 21:31:33 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-irc#T20-51-11