IRC log of hcg on 2011-07-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:43 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs member
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Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
13:59:47 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see HTML_CG()10:00AM already started
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Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
13:59:48 [trackbot]
Date: 01 July 2011
13:59:59 [ddahl]
zakim, who is here?
13:59:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, Debbie_Dahl
14:00:04 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
14:00:04 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
14:02:27 [ddahl]
regrets:paul_cotton, kazuyuki
14:03:02 [janina]
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14:03:13 [janina]
zakim, code?
14:03:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
14:03:21 [Zakim]
+ + - is perhaps Bert
14:03:37 [Steven]
zakim, code?
14:03:37 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven
14:03:42 [Zakim]
14:03:42 [Bert]
Bert has joined #hcg
14:03:57 [raphael]
why the pass code 4824 is not valid ?
14:04:18 [janina]
zakim, ??P14 is Janina
14:04:18 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
14:04:56 [glazou]
worked for me immediately but I was 1st on the call
14:05:13 [Zakim]
14:05:17 [ddahl]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, Debbie_Dahl, shepazu, Bert, Janina, Steven
14:05:38 [Steven]
It didn't work for me the first time; had to repeat it; in the second time
14:08:12 [Steven_]
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14:08:21 [Steven_]
Scribenick: Steven_
14:08:27 [Steven_]
scribe: Steven
14:08:35 [Zakim]
+ +
14:08:46 [Steven_]
rrsagenat, make minutes
14:08:52 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:08:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven_
14:11:03 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make log public
14:11:11 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Steven_
14:11:27 [Steven_]
Topic: Media fragemtns
14:11:36 [Steven_]
14:12:24 [Steven_]
Raphael: Media fragments has gone to last call twice, one set of comments not yet resolved
14:12:50 [Steven_]
... a number of things say that the fragment should be rendered
14:13:01 [Steven_]
... informative in the spec, not required for the implementor
14:13:59 [Steven_]
... Do you think that way we have defined media fragments clashes with the SVG definition?
14:14:53 [shepazu]
(,20,30,40 )
14:14:57 [Steven_]
... and do you think that CSS should be able to define the interpretation of a fragment URL?
14:15:11 [Steven_]
Glazou: The CSS parser has to validate the URL
14:15:32 [Steven_]
... and whether to throw a CSS error
14:15:49 [Steven_]
... and drop the rulw
14:15:53 [Steven_]
14:15:57 [shepazu]
14:16:10 [Steven_]
... and I don't see another way of doing it
14:16:31 [Steven_]
Doug: It's up to the parsing engine on the UA to interpret URLs
14:16:48 [Steven_]
... since that's what the RFC says
14:16:58 [Steven_]
Glazou: It is also common proactice
14:17:03 [Steven_]
14:17:45 [Steven_]
Raphael: Is the syntax the same?
14:17:59 [Steven_]
Glazou: Exactly as defined by the RFC
14:18:47 [Steven_]
(RFC 3986)
14:18:52 [raphael]
14:19:16 [Steven_]
Raphael: OK, so in the above section you reference the fragment identifiers
14:19:49 [Steven_]
... from a syntax point of view that is OK, but how do you interpret the fragment?
14:20:15 [Steven_]
Steven: So you don't interpret the fragment?
14:20:21 [Steven_]
Glazou: Right.
14:21:23 [Steven_]
Raphael: But your spec defers to the mimetype for the meaning of the fragment?
14:21:39 [Steven_]
... for many specs there is no definition of what a fragment means
14:21:56 [Steven_]
... But you do provide interpretation of fragments
14:22:17 [Steven_]
... for instance clipping out a part of an image
14:22:41 [Steven_]
... fine for me, but that should really be defined by the resource type, not by CSS
14:23:16 [Bert]
q+ to say that the CSS image spec should probably make that sentence about MF non-normative.
14:23:20 [Steven_]
... Media Fragments wants to give guidance when registering a mimetype
14:23:24 [shepazu]
14:24:13 [Steven_]
Bert: I agree with Glazou's position, I think we should make it nonnormative
14:24:55 [Steven_]
Glazou: The examples on images, it is not the job of CSS to clip it. It is the user agent that does it
14:25:05 [Bert]
-> section 4.1 of editor's draft of css3-images
14:25:12 [Steven_]
... CSS is *requesting* something there.
14:25:32 [Steven_]
Raphael: SO we agree that there should be no clash between the different specs
14:25:38 [Steven_]
14:26:27 [Steven_]
Glazou: So, the presence of an equals sign allows the discrimination between a reg. ID and an XPath
14:26:47 [Steven_]
... to know what kind of thing they are, you have to stop parsing
14:27:30 [Steven_]
Raphael: The Media Fragments spec defines something that is a subset of the syntax for fragments
14:27:44 [Steven_]
... a set of name value pairs
14:28:01 [shepazu]
14:28:09 [Steven_]
... so we have to parse to see if it is a media fragment URI
14:28:11 [Bert]
14:28:14 [Steven_]
... so I agree you have to parse
14:28:44 [Steven_]
Daniel: This is not an issue for CSS/Media fragments, but for the rendering layer
14:28:52 [Steven_]
Raphael: I tend to agree
14:29:16 [Steven_]
... except for the case where an image container contains more than one image
14:29:28 [Steven_]
... of different types
14:29:42 [Steven_]
Glazou: Up to the image format
14:30:01 [Steven_]
Raphael: Well the CSS people want to know how to do it
14:30:16 [Steven_]
Glazou: Not our role to do that; external to CSS.
14:30:32 [Steven_]
Raphael: Good; we shall note the case and say it is undefined
14:30:55 [raphael]
14:31:40 [Steven_]
Doug: The syntax for media fragments seems fine
14:32:05 [Steven_]
... audio/video commands
14:32:40 [Steven_]
... clipping of audio/video
14:32:57 [Steven_]
... but what if that video file is just one of three on the HTML page
14:33:03 [Steven_]
14:33:34 [Steven_]
Glazou: xywh is not an id, it is a comment
14:33:41 [glazou]
14:33:57 [Steven_]
Doug: I meant, what if I link to a youtube video?
14:34:56 [Steven_]
Raphael: This is a frequent case. Already planned to propagate the hash to the actually sourced video
14:35:51 [Steven_]
Glazou: Example please?
14:35:59 [shepazu],20
14:36:00 [Steven_]
14:36:01 [raphael]
#t=30,120 for example
14:36:15 [shepazu],20
14:37:10 [glazou]
then <video id="t"> and #t vs. #t=10,20
14:37:11 [Steven_]
Doug: In the second example the big content providers will rpoagate the #t= to the actual video
14:37:27 [Steven_]
Raphael: Almost, The spec says nothing normative
14:38:03 [Steven_]
... in the example the HTML will try to find an ID called t=10,20
14:38:14 [Steven_]
... but youtube will do something special
14:38:38 [Steven_]
Glazou: Why a hash instead of a "?" ?
14:39:12 [Steven_]
Raphael: There's a big section in the spec on the different behaviours
14:39:21 [Steven_]
... you can use a ? as well
14:39:52 [Steven_]
... with a ? you get a new resource, which is not cached etc
14:40:31 [Steven_]
... with a # you can cache, and you have the whole root resource as well
14:40:57 [Steven_]
... we have tried to define it so that nothing breaks. We have found no counter-example yet.
14:41:23 [shepazu]
14:41:46 [Bert]
(Error in minutes? A "?" doesn't influence caching. Caching is controled by HTTP headers, not by the shape of the URL.)
14:42:12 [Steven_]
Glazou: So you are targetting media, but a web page is not media
14:42:37 [raphael]
indeed, I just say it just creates a completely new resource which has nothing to do from the "parent" resource
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14:43:26 [Zakim]
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14:43:54 [Steven_]
Raphael: The spec doesn't recommend what happens with HTML pages, it is just what some sites do
14:44:29 [Steven_]
Doug: I will email my problems; I think we are setting ourselves for trouble
14:45:25 [Steven_]
Glazou: what if "rewind" is a command for videos and there is a "rewind" ID in the document ?
14:45:44 [Steven_]
Steven: #rewind isn't a MF URL, no problem
14:45:49 [raphael]
Raphael: this has nothing to do with media fragments
14:46:38 [Steven_]
Doug: The question is whether there are existing clashes with other fragment syntaxes
14:47:09 [shepazu]
14:47:17 [Steven_]
Doug: I have a question about SVG
14:47:32 [Steven_]
... SVG parameters, not ther eyet, but specced out
14:47:57 [Steven_]
... minting URLs that acvt on the existing resource and passes name/value pairs
14:48:18 [Steven_]
14:49:23 [Steven_]
s/ther e/there /
14:49:33 [glazou]
14:49:39 [Steven_]
... I hope we can avoid clashes
14:50:18 [raphael]
14:51:13 [shepazu]
14:51:34 [janina]
+1 to Doug. I see the problem here is how, not whether to specify something/somewhere within a doc/object.
14:51:58 [Steven_]
Yves: SVG is an XML media type so should obey rfc 3023
14:52:15 [Steven_]
... then you have to use xpointer
14:52:34 [Steven_]
... which is different from formats that are not XML-based
14:53:44 [Steven_]
Doug: Don't assume that SVG will be XML-only
14:54:06 [Steven_]
... maybe you and I could discuss the SVG param stuff sometime
14:54:32 [Steven_]
Glazou: Origianl question, conflics with CSS< ther eis no problem
14:54:39 [Steven_]
Raphael: I tend to agree
14:54:55 [Steven_]
14:55:04 [Steven_]
14:55:11 [Steven_]
s/ther e/there /
14:55:45 [Steven_]
Debbie: I think we have a resolution here
14:56:07 [Steven_]
Raphael: Np problem with CSS and SVG, need to watch out with SVG2
14:56:10 [glazou]
14:56:15 [Steven_]
14:56:31 [Steven_]
Glazou: THe CSS WG needs to look at this, next Wednesday
14:56:39 [Steven_]
14:57:12 [Steven_]
Doug: SVG is a timed media that uses # for other purpoises, but I need to check
14:57:21 [Steven_]
14:57:27 [Steven_]
14:57:43 [Steven_]
Glazou: SO we will go back to our WGs and come back to the HCG
14:57:54 [Steven_]
Debbie: 15th July?
14:58:04 [Steven_]
Bert: Bad day for me (French holiday)
14:58:10 [Steven_]
14:58:27 [Steven_]
Glazou: In any case we will send an email to the HCG
14:58:34 [shepazu]
14:58:34 [glazou]
14:59:23 [Steven_]
Raphael: Thank you for this discussion. Looking forward to your responses
14:59:38 [Steven_]
Doug: Already implementations, and tests?
14:59:44 [Steven_]
Raphael: Ongoing
14:59:55 [Steven_]
... Firefox and Opera in so far
15:00:05 [Steven_]
... and big servers
15:00:52 [Steven_]
15:01:01 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make them
15:01:01 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make them', Steven_. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Steven_
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HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
15:01:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were Debbie_Dahl, glazou, +, shepazu, Janina, Steven, +, raphael, Yves
15:02:41 [ddahl]
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate ddahl
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