IRC log of ua on 2011-06-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:35:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:35:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc
16:35:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:35:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:35:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:35:43 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
16:35:44 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:35:44 [trackbot]
Date: 30 June 2011
16:35:52 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan
16:36:02 [JAllan]
regrets+KellyFord
16:58:33 [jeanneS]
jeanneS has joined #ua
16:58:41 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:48 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:28 [jeanneS]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne
17:01:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanneS, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:01:54 [Zakim]
+Greg
17:01:54 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:03:24 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:03:54 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:03:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:04:20 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:04:42 [Zakim]
+??P8
17:04:55 [Jan]
zakim, ??P8 is really Jan
17:04:55 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:04:58 [Zakim]
+KimPatch
17:05:23 [Zakim]
+jallan
17:05:43 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Announcements
17:05:59 [JAllan]
Agenda+ review of Editor's Draft comments from group http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html
17:06:10 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/
17:07:17 [JAllan]
agenda+ draft issues http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0060.html
17:11:50 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:11:50 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:11:51 [Zakim]
1. Announcements [from JAllan]
17:11:53 [Zakim]
2. review of Editor's Draft comments from group http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html [from JAllan]
17:11:56 [Zakim]
3. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/ [from JAllan]
17:11:58 [Zakim]
4. draft issues http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0060.html [from JAllan]
17:13:52 [jeanneS]
scribe: jeanne
17:13:57 [jeanneS]
agenda?
17:14:16 [jeanneS]
zakim, take up item 1
17:14:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Announcements" taken up [from JAllan]
17:14:45 [jeanneS]
JA: Attended html5 media call Wed eve. Very technical, no comments
17:15:06 [jeanneS]
... iHenni is now at BBC and commented on WebAIM about SkipNav
17:15:13 [jeanneS]
regrets+ Kelly
17:15:20 [jeanneS]
zakim, close this item
17:15:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
17:15:21 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:22 [Zakim]
2. review of Editor's Draft comments from group http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html [from JAllan]
17:15:24 [jeanneS]
zakim, take up next
17:15:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "review of Editor's Draft comments from group http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html" taken up [from JAllan]
17:16:27 [mhakkinen]
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17:17:17 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:18:44 [jeanneS]
JA: Like the clarity of 1.1.1 - especially "non-text content"
17:18:45 [Greg]
Re 1.1.1, the new version is actually considerably longer than the existing text, but "For each type of non-text content" is a valuable addition.
17:19:05 [Greg]
Re 1.1.2 (was 1.1.3), I disagree with the new text dropping the requirement that the indicator needs to be presented "along with" the element it refers to, as I don't think it should be adequate to merely display a binary indicator on the status bar that says there is at least one element on the page with alternative content.
17:19:08 [jeanneS]
Jeanne: Are there examples of 1.1.2?
17:19:17 [jeanneS]
Greg: Opera
17:19:48 [jeanneS]
Greg: entered comments (above)
17:20:26 [jeanneS]
Jim: If you have an audio indicator that sounds if something is there.
17:20:41 [Greg]
Should probably be "presented" rather than "displayed" to accommodate non-visual browsers.
17:20:45 [jeanneS]
Greg: so "presented" rather than "displayed"
17:21:20 [jeanneS]
... we could define "display" as including audio.
17:21:37 [Greg]
Similarly, I would not consider it adequate for the user agent to have a menu item that brings up a dialog with a list of all the elements that have alternative content.
17:22:19 [Greg]
That's why I propose we restore the wording about presenting "along with".
17:22:50 [jeanneS]
Mark: Temporarily or spacial adjacent
17:23:24 [jeanneS]
Greg: we have the phrase in the original version, but it was omitted in Jan's rewrite
17:23:50 [jeanneS]
Kim: Presented is better than displayed, even if we included it in the definition. It is a better mental map,.
17:26:53 [Greg]
The original version read "1.1.3 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user can specify that alternative content indicators be rendered along with elements that have alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternative). (Level A)" What would you change other than changing "alternative content indicators" to "indicators"?
17:27:21 [Greg]
Oh, and Jan's also took out the inline example.
17:28:46 [Jan]
1.1.2 Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be presented with rendered content when unrendered alternative content is present for the rendered content. (Level A)
17:29:49 [Greg]
1.1.3 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be presented along with elements that have alternative content.
17:30:35 [Greg]
1.1.3 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user can specify that alternative content indicators be rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content.
17:31:15 [Greg]
Re 1.1.3 (was 1.1.2), I think we lost the important concept that it's all about changing the display options for a specific element, rather than for a content type.
17:31:37 [Jan]
Action JR: Try again with 1.1.2 Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content - presentation, along with
17:31:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-573 - Try again with 1.1.2 Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content - presentation, along with [on Jan Richards - due 2011-07-07].
17:32:48 [JAllan]
1.1.3 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any types of alternative content that are present for a given element.
17:33:25 [Greg]
It was about not telling the browser to show all alt text, but (for example) to select an image and tell the browser to show alt text for that image.
17:34:10 [Greg]
Jim's version looks reasonable, at first glance.
17:35:18 [JAllan]
action: JS to add 1.1.3 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any types of alternative content that are present for a given element. to the document
17:35:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-574 - Add 1.1.3 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any types of alternative content that are present for a given element. to the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
17:36:42 [jeanneS]
action: Jeanne to update document with new text for 1.1.1 from Jan email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html
17:36:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-575 - Update document with new text for 1.1.1 from Jan email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
17:38:18 [Greg]
Re 1.1.4, my only real concern about the rewrite is that it introduces the limitation that it's only about alternative content for *non-text content*, so it would no longer apply to things like abbreviations.
17:42:27 [Greg]
The older version was "1.1.4 Rendering Alternative (Enhanced): The user can specify the fallback order in which to render alternative content. (Level AA)", which applied to text and non-text content with alternative content.
17:43:50 [Greg]
Jan has a good question, whether the title attribute would be alternative content, and whether 1.1.2 should require the UA to indicate presence of title on text and/or non-text elements.
17:44:45 [JAllan]
1.1.4 Default Rendering of Alternative Content (Enhanced): For each type of content, the user can specify the cascade in which to render different types of alternative content, in case preferred types are not present. (Level AA)
17:45:30 [jeanneS]
JA: Our SC references WCAG which says it is AAA.
17:45:33 [Jan]
WCAG also has this defn http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#suppcontentdef
17:46:09 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#multimedia-alt-textdef
17:46:35 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#alt-time-based-mediadef
17:47:50 [Greg]
I note that "type of content" is not defined, but is used in passing as generic types "(such as video or sound)" rather than specific element types (e.g. yes for object, no for img). Probably not important.
17:48:44 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#text-altdef
17:48:55 [jeanneS]
1.1.4 Default Rendering of Alternative Content (Enhanced): For each type of content, the user can specify the cascade in which to render different types of alternative content, in case preferred types are not present. (Level AA)
17:49:14 [Jan]
(was just pasting in links to alternative type definitions in WCAG2)
17:49:17 [jeanneS]
action: jeanne to update 1.1.4 with the text above. 1.1.4 Default Rendering of Alternative Content (Enhanced): For each type of content, the user can specify the cascade in which to render different types of alternative content, in case preferred types are not present. (Level AA)
17:49:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-576 - Update 1.1.4 with the text above. 1.1.4 Default Rendering of Alternative Content (Enhanced): For each type of content, the user can specify the cascade in which to render different types of alternative content, in case preferred types are not present. (Level AA) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
17:49:59 [jeanneS]
zakim, close this item
17:49:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:50:00 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:50:02 [Zakim]
3. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/ [from JAllan]
17:50:04 [jeanneS]
zakim, take up next
17:50:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/" taken up [from JAllan]
17:51:49 [Greg]
Here's the new version using <ins> and <del> to indicate where the specific changes were:
17:51:50 [Greg]
2.3.5 Allow Override of Accesskeys (former 2.1.11) : The user can override any recognized author supplied content keybinding (i.e. <del>access key</del><ins>accesskey attribute in HTML</ins>). The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session. (Level AA)
17:51:52 [Greg]
Intent: <del>Content authors may utilize the Accesskey attribute</del><ins>Depending on the markup language, content authors may be able</ins> to define short cut keys which allow quick access to specific elements, actions, or parts of their Web content. <ins>For example, in HTML, the author may use the Accesskey attribute to define these short cut keys.</ins> The author-selected short...
17:51:54 [Greg]
...cuts may utilize keystrokes that are unique to their site, differing from conventions used, and or familiar, to users of other similar sites, or sites offering similar functionality. Users of assistive technologies who rely upon keyboard input may wish to have a consistent mapping of shortcut keys to similar, or common actions or functions across the sites they visit.
17:52:01 [Jan]
ACTION-544 - Rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic
17:52:22 [Jan]
oops - I meant i agree to ACTION-544 - Rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic
17:54:25 [jeanneS]
action: Jeanne to update 2.3.5 with text from survey with the edits from Kim as noted in the minutes below.
17:54:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-577 - Update 2.3.5 with text from survey with the edits from Kim as noted in the minutes below. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
17:56:00 [JAllan]
2.3.5 Allow Override of Accesskeys (former 2.1.11) : The user can override any recognized author supplied content keybinding (i.e. accesskey attribute in HTML). The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session. (Level AA)
17:56:02 [JAllan]
Intent: Depending on the markup language, content authors may be able to define short cut keys which allow change quick access to specific elements, actions, or parts of their Web content. For example, in HTML, the author may use the Accesskey attribute to define these short cut keys. The author-selected short cuts may utilize keystrokes that are unique to their site, differing from...
17:56:04 [JAllan]
...conventions used, and or familiar to users of other similar sites, or sites offering similar functionality. Users of assistive technologies who rely upon keyboard input may wish to have a consistent mapping of shortcut keys to similar, or common actions or functions across the sites they visit.
17:56:52 [JAllan]
2.3.5 Allow Override of Accesskeys (former 2.1.11) : The user can override any recognized author supplied content keybinding (i.e. accesskey attribute in HTML). The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session. (Level AA)
17:56:54 [JAllan]
Intent: Depending on the markup language, content authors may be able to define short cut keys that allow quick access to specific elements, actions, or parts of their Web content. For example, in HTML, the author may use the Accesskey attribute to define these short cut keys. The author-selected short cuts may utilize keystrokes that are unique to their site, differing from...
17:56:55 [JAllan]
...conventions used, and or familiar to users of other similar sites, or sites offering similar functionality. Users of assistive technologies who rely upon keyboard input may wish to have a consistent mapping of shortcut keys to similar, or common actions or functions across the sites they visit.
17:57:20 [Greg]
Maybe the title should also be tech neutral, "Allow Override of Keyboard Shortcuts", or the like.
17:58:35 [JAllan]
"Allow Override of Content Keybindings"
17:59:14 [JAllan]
2.3.5 Allow Override of Content Keybindings (former 2.1.11) : The user can override any recognized author supplied content keybinding (i.e. accesskey attribute in HTML). The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session. (Level AA)
17:59:16 [JAllan]
Intent: Depending on the markup language, content authors may be able to define short cut keys that allow quick access to specific elements, actions, or parts of their Web content. For example, in HTML, the author may use the Accesskey attribute to define these short cut keys. The author-selected short cuts may utilize keystrokes that are unique to their site, differing from...
17:59:17 [JAllan]
...conventions used, and or familiar to users of other similar sites, or sites offering similar functionality. Users of assistive technologies who rely upon keyboard input may wish to have a consistent mapping of shortcut keys to similar, or common actions or functions across the sites they visit.
17:59:28 [Zakim]
-Jan
17:59:30 [JAllan]
close action-544
17:59:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-544 Rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic...author defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content closed
18:00:07 [jeanneS]
Topic: Change to Overview
18:01:05 [jeanneS]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/results#xq3
18:08:01 [JAllan]
support alternative input and output including assistive technology
18:10:19 [Greg]
How about two bullet items:
18:10:20 [Greg]
* support assistive technology such as alternative input and output utilities
18:10:22 [Greg]
* support the user's choice of input styles, such as keyboard or mouse
18:10:43 [mhakkinen]
support assistive technologies to enable alternative input mechanisms and output modalities
18:10:53 [Greg]
* support multiple input styles, such as keyboard, mouse, and speech
18:12:25 [Greg]
* be configurable, so the user can adjust it to meet their needs
18:12:27 [Greg]
* be discoverable, so the user can learn to use it easily
18:12:28 [Greg]
* be predictable, so the user does not have to react and compensate for the user agent behaving in ways they did not expect
18:12:30 [Greg]
* enable optional self-pacing, for users who need additional time to view, read, comprehend, or respond
18:12:31 [Greg]
* adhere to published conventions where they do not reduce accessibility
18:12:33 [Greg]
* support assistive technology such as alternative input and output utilities
18:12:35 [Greg]
* support multiple input styles, such as keyboard, mouse, and speech
18:12:36 [Greg]
* support the user's choice of output styles, such as text, graphics, and speech
18:13:22 [Greg]
s/multiple input styles/usr's choice of input styles/
18:13:59 [jeanneS]
action: jeanne to update overview with text from minutes, above.
18:13:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-578 - Update overview with text from minutes, above. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
18:19:11 [jeanneS]
action: jeanne to delete SC 1.2.3
18:19:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-579 - Delete SC 1.2.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
18:25:19 [JAllan]
action: jimallan to write patrick about http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/results#xq5
18:25:19 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jimallan
18:25:19 [jeanneS]
[discussion of greg's comments]
18:25:27 [JAllan]
action: jallan to write patrick about http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/results#xq5
18:25:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-580 - Write patrick about http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/results#xq5 [on Jim Allan - due 2011-07-07].
18:29:21 [JAllan]
4.1.x Programmatic Write Access: If the user can modify the state or value of a piece of content through the *user interface* (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of write access is available programmatically. (Level A) :
18:29:49 [jeanneS]
action: jeanne to add 4.1.x using the text in the minutes above.
18:29:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-581 - Add 4.1.x using the text in the minutes above. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-07-07].
18:32:47 [Greg]
Does this really add anything beyond 4.1.1 and 4.1.2? Not sure.
18:33:14 [Greg]
(That's re Simon's proposed SC starting "If a User Agent keeps an internal representation of the user content...")
18:35:24 [jeanneS]
zakim, close this item
18:35:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
18:35:25 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:35:27 [Zakim]
4. draft issues http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0060.html [from JAllan]
18:36:02 [Greg]
If a platform that does not support a platform accessibility API like MSAA, and thus 4.1.1 does not apply, 4.1.2 would require the UA to expose information about each element, but would not require it to expose information about relationships between them such as any *order*. Simon's would do that.
18:37:32 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:37:33 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
18:37:35 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
18:37:35 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:37:42 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:38:05 [Zakim]
-jallan
18:38:06 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:38:08 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne, Greg, Jan, KimPatch, jallan, Mark_Hakkinen
18:38:43 [JAllan]
present: jimallan, jspellman, kimP, MarkH
18:38:58 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:39:27 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:39:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:39:40 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:39:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:39:54 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-actions.rdf :
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Try again with 1.1.2 Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content - presentation, along with [1]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T17-31-37
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to add 1.1.3 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any types of alternative content that are present for a given element. to the document [2]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T17-35-18
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update document with new text for 1.1.1 from Jan email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0082.html [3]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T17-36-42
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 1.1.4 with the text above. 1.1.4 Default Rendering of Alternative Content (Enhanced): For each type of content, the user can specify the cascade in which to render different types of alternative content, in case preferred types are not present. (Level AA) [4]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T17-49-17
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update 2.3.5 with text from survey with the edits from Kim as noted in the minutes below. [5]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T17-54-25
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update overview with text from minutes, above. [6]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T18-13-59
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to delete SC 1.2.3 [7]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T18-19-11
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jimallan to write patrick about http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/results#xq5 [8]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T18-25-19
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to write patrick about http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110620/results#xq5 [9]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T18-25-27
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 4.1.x using the text in the minutes above. [10]
18:39:54 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-ua-irc#T18-29-49
18:40:16 [jeanneS]
jeanneS has left #ua