21:29:00 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:29:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-irc
21:29:02 RRSAgent, make logs world
21:29:04 Zakim, this will be 2119
21:29:04 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
21:29:05 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:29:05 Date: 29 June 2011
21:29:11 zakim, who's here?
21:29:11 apparently WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended, janina
21:29:13 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:29:21 silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:29:25 zakim, this will be 2119
21:29:25 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
21:29:48 rrsagent, make log public
21:30:02 rrsagent, make minutes
21:30:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
21:31:05 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:31:05 Chair: John_Foliot
21:31:05 Scribe: Janina_Sajka
21:31:05 agenda: this
21:31:05 agenda+ Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
21:31:05 agenda+ Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion
21:31:07 agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin
21:31:09 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:31:12 agenda+ Other Business?
21:31:14 agenda+ be done
21:31:15
21:31:32 agenda?
21:31:49 zakim, drop item 6
21:31:52 zakim, drop item 7
21:31:53 zakim, drop item 8
21:31:56 zakim, drop item 9
21:32:04 agendum 6, HTML5 LC spec-review status update, dropped
21:32:04 agenda?
21:32:06 agendum 7, identify scribe for June 30, dropped
21:32:08 agendum 8, Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience, dropped
21:32:11 agendum 9, Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion, dropped
21:32:37 zakim, drop item 10
21:32:37 agendum 10, Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin, dropped
21:32:39 zakim, drop item 11
21:32:39 agendum 11, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:32:41 zakim, drop item 12
21:32:42 agendum 12, Other Business?, dropped
21:32:50 agenda?
21:32:57 LJW has joined #html-a11y
21:32:59 zakim, drop item 13
21:32:59 agendum 13, be done, dropped
21:33:06 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:33:07 Chair: John_Foliot
21:33:07 Scribe: Janina_Sajka
21:33:07 agenda: this
21:33:07 agenda+ Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
21:33:08 agenda+ Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion
21:33:09 agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin
21:33:12 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:33:13 agenda+ Other Business?
21:33:16 agenda+ be done
21:33:53 agenda?
21:34:23 zakim, this is 2119
21:34:23 ok, JF; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM
21:34:31 scribenic: janina
21:35:24 zakim, ??P3 is janina
21:35:24 +janina; got it
21:35:34 zakim, mute me
21:35:34 silvia should now be muted
21:35:36 zakim, ??P6 is LJW
21:35:36 +LJW; got it
21:35:52 zakim, +44 is Sean Hayes
21:35:52 I don't understand '+44 is Sean Hayes', JF
21:36:12 zakim, aaaa is Sean Hayes
21:36:12 I don't understand 'aaaa is Sean Hayes', JF
21:36:34 zakim, +44.154.558.aaaa is Sean Hayes
21:36:34 I don't understand '+44.154.558.aaaa is Sean Hayes', JF
21:37:02 zakim, who's here?
21:37:02 On the phone I see janina, John_Foliot, LJW, +44.154.558.aaaa, silvia (muted)
21:37:04 On IRC I see LJW, silvia, RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:37:08 +44.154.558.aaaa is Sean
21:37:27 +Judy
21:37:30 judy has joined #html-a11y
21:37:37 +[Microsoft]
21:37:47 agenda?
21:38:32 zakim, [Microsoft] is Frank Olivier
21:38:32 I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Frank Olivier', JF
21:38:48 zakim, who's here?
21:38:48 On the phone I see janina, John_Foliot, LJW, +44.154.558.aaaa, silvia (muted), Judy, [Microsoft]
21:38:50 On IRC I see judy, LJW, silvia, RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:38:58 zakim, take up agendum 16
21:38:58 agendum 16. "Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin" taken up [from janina]
21:38:59 frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
21:39:10 zakim, +44.154.558.aaaa is Sean_Hays
21:39:10 +Sean_Hays; got it
21:39:19 zakim, unmute me
21:39:19 silvia should no longer be muted
21:39:24 zakim, Microsoft is Frank_Oliver
21:39:24 +Frank_Oliver; got it
21:40:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Navigation
21:41:13 sp: Suggestions for attaining DAISY type navigation in HTML 5 media ...
21:41:26 sp: driven by external text tracks
21:42:22 sp: Have not thought through all the issues on the AT side, but believe what we have is sufficient for support
21:44:21 js: So, if we have media resource and two alternatives, audio based video description pluse a sign translation video, we need to create a text track to get navigation?
21:44:22 sp: yes
21:44:23
21:44:25
Impact of Captions on the Web
21:44:27
Requirements of a Video text format
21:44:29
The Web VTT Format
21:44:30
21:44:32
data='00:03:33.000'>Simple WebVTT file
21:44:35
js: do we need a new label for that otherwise empty text?
21:44:36 data='00:04:57.766'>Styled WebVTT file
21:44:38
data='00:06:16.666'>Internationalized WebVTT file
21:44:41
21:44:42 sp: No, it's called "Chapter."
21:44:42
21:44:44
"
21:45:24 sp: JF's question ml looks correct ...
21:45:39 sp: like fly-out menus
21:45:54 s/sp/jf/
21:45:57 -Judy
21:46:25 jf: what about two text tracks with different levels ...
21:46:50 +Judy
21:46:59 sp: believe same ml will work for ttml as i've shown with webvtt
21:47:33 JAllan has joined #html-a11y
21:47:48 sp: We've both vtt and ttml in the wiki page--both can map
21:48:57 sp: Sean, were you able to look at the wiki on navigation?
21:48:58 +jallan
21:49:05 sh: looked at ttml, looks workable
21:49:36 jf: just concerned that our ml is acceptable both for vtt and ttml authoring
21:50:00 q+
21:50:15 sh: It comes down to conventions, so yes. This is a perfectly valid way of doing it.
21:51:38 q?
21:53:04 fo: are we defining a new collection of objects? are we overloading queues? How do we think of handling this from js?
21:53:36 sp: Only thing I've introduced a nest element, start and end, for grouping
21:54:02 sp: It only displays as the time is reached on the timeline
21:54:46 fo: So, this is a new concept. So, today, you can load queue from external file, or querry. How does chapter concept fit in?
21:54:53 sp: I'm not introducing anything new.
21:55:04 fo: How do I skip from one chapter to the next?
21:55:21 sp: I haven't addressed that side in this wiki
21:55:35 fo: I think you misunderstand my question
21:55:49 fo: You can load from file queus, manipulate with js ---
21:55:54 sp: Is the same
21:56:27 sp: All I do is used a text track that's associated with video as "Chapter" kind, and provide a queue ist.
21:56:32 sp: I'm showing it's contents
21:57:06 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcue
21:57:34 sp: I picked this object and filled in all the attributes
21:58:14 sh: so the chapter points are distributed throughout ...
21:58:40 sp: top levels are separate queues
21:59:09 sh: sublevels are all separate
21:59:27 sh: doesn't seem elegant
21:59:33 sp: it's what DAISY does
21:59:34 http://www.html5videoguide.net/demos/google_io/3_navigation/
21:59:44 sp: DAISY has one structure, this is two
22:01:12 jf: sounds like chapter notion is abandoned, these are just specific time queues
22:02:34 sp: yes, because original "chapter" concept was DVD based, and this is independent of that. This is a different semantec notion.
22:03:30 sh: Not sure chapter was defined to be equivalent to DVD markers?
22:04:21 "Chapter titles, intended to be used for navigating the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#media-resource. Displayed as an interactive list in the user agent's interface."
22:05:01 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#the-track-element <- scroll to the list
22:05:40 jf: So "chapter" was a poor term to choose.
22:06:01 jf: Perhaps we should suggest a different term.
22:07:03 sp: will always be someone who misunderstands, no matter what we call it
22:07:30 sh: there's no implication that chapters can't be nested
22:08:48 jf: just as with
, there was an implicit
when the next
was presented?
22:09:08 sh: but there could be another chapter inside, at a internal nesting level
22:10:13 sp: I think the nesting is more obvious the way I have it
22:11:21 sp: It's true that we could organize this differently.
22:12:07 q+
22:12:33 ""
22:12:41 davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:12:44 js: Bottom line here, we need nothing new from HTML spec to do hierarchical navigation? Am I wrong?
22:13:00 js: We were working on a July 1 deadline
22:13:02
Impact of Captions on the Web
22:13:40 sh: My question is how this is to be exposed into html
22:14:06 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html#webvtt-timestamp-object
22:14:07 sp: through xml processing instructions
22:15:39 fo: would be very very good if we can keep our existing queue structure the same. It would be unfortunate if we need to change that.
22:16:25 sp: There's no change
22:16:41 fo: Think we have to do something to expose chapter info
22:18:49 fo: We need some discussion on how to do chapter navigation programaticallysp: I can show the same working with DAISY or TTML, inside queues. It can end up in the same ml
22:18:58 q+
22:19:05 ack f
22:19:56 sp: Only objection I hear that is a problem is that the drilling in navigation is inside queues
22:20:09 sp: reason is that representing it on a timeline would be hard, and I think we don't need that
22:20:43 q+
22:20:50 -jallan
22:21:43 sh: Didn't et to my point, there's a ? inside the nesting, not sure what that is in the html
22:22:27 sh: Not sure what that is
22:22:39 sp: It's an xml processing instruction that already exists in html
22:22:49 sp: Now looking for a link pointer
22:22:59 sh: I understand it in vtt, but not in html
22:23:12 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html#webvtt-cue-text-dom-construction-rules
22:24:20 sp: I'm mapping the nest item into an ordered list
22:24:43 zakim, mute me
22:24:43 silvia should now be muted
22:25:45 jf: Want to focus on any cp we need to deliver by friday?
22:25:53 janina: also wanted to say that, but also ...
22:26:24 janina: showing hierarchical nav points may not work on a timeline, but it can work visually very well, perhaps in a system map kind of display
22:26:35 jf: Yes, and nested lists is a familiar concept for web authors.
22:26:58 zakim, unmute me
22:26:58 silvia should no longer be muted
22:27:13 jf: Would this xml be the cp?
22:27:27 sh: Would be a very interesting proposal as other xml has been frowned on in html
22:28:04 sp: Only proposal here is related to webvtt, so from that point of view we don't need a cp
22:28:26 sp: I could show how DAISY could be mapped in, and also ttml.
22:29:06 sh: When you have the get queue as html can you remove the xml?
22:29:09 sp: it is html
22:29:11 sh: no
22:30:10 sh: xml processing is suggested to be ignored by dev html
22:30:25 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
22:30:33 ProcessingInstruction
22:31:24 sh: I see no need because of this, nothing is different
22:31:39 sp: it's all part of the dom, text, event, etc
22:32:03 sp: Perhaps an example into the spec of how the hierarchical ml would work, an informative section
22:33:42 jf: If we get this xml processing piece to a point where there's agreement, are you otherwise comfortable with this?
22:35:10 jb: Best that we keep this, so putting a proposal means there will be a call for counter proposals, and from that we can work toward the best approach.
22:35:57 jb: How much to get this done?
22:36:01 sp: It's due Friday
22:36:50 sp: I suggest I forward this myself, as a cp, since we don't have agreement in the group. That would take a couple hours.
22:37:08 jf: People were saying it would be good to have examples in addition to vtt
22:37:11 sp: Yes, will do.
22:37:35 zakim, take up item 14
22:37:35 agendum 14. "Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience" taken up [from janina]
22:37:37 zakim, mute me
22:37:38 silvia should now be muted
22:38:10 jf: I think aria-described won't work, fundamentally, unfortunately.
22:38:32 jf: It's because it's off page so can't focus and links and ml would be lost, because they're outside of the viewport
22:38:42 jf: it's all about tab focus
22:39:00 aria-describedby is not off-page
22:39:26 zakim, unmute me
22:39:26 silvia should no longer be muted
22:39:58 jf: then we don't meet the design
22:40:09 leonie: every designer will hate it
22:40:30 sp: for that we've ... [[missed]
22:40:44 sp: it's inside the video element, so it's fallback, not visually presented, but in the dom
22:41:03 jf: can't have it in the dom and not available to sighted users
22:41:31 zakim, mute me
22:41:31 silvia should now be muted
22:43:46 zakim, unmute me
22:43:46 silvia should no longer be muted
22:45:03 zakim, mute me
22:45:03 silvia should now be muted
22:45:54 zakim, unmute me
22:45:54 silvia should no longer be muted
22:46:53 judy has joined #html-a11y
22:50:31
22:51:26 davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:56:15 zakim, mute me
22:56:15 silvia should now be muted
22:57:15 -Frank_Oliver
22:58:54 zakim, unmute me
22:58:54 silvia should no longer be muted
22:59:43 zakim, mute me
22:59:43 silvia should now be muted
23:00:15 [Judy sends regrets for next week; will be away]
23:00:46 jf: Silvia will submit a cp on nav, we'll keep discussing it and other approaches. And, we'll keep working on poster.
23:00:57 rrsagent, make minutes
23:00:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
23:01:14 -LJW
23:01:21 -Sean_Hays
23:01:27 -silvia
23:01:29 zakim, who's here?
23:01:29 On the phone I see janina, John_Foliot, Judy
23:01:30 On IRC I see davidb, judy, frankolivier, silvia, RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
23:13:10 -Judy
23:13:13 -John_Foliot
23:13:24 zakim, bye
23:13:24 leaving. As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, silvia, janina, LJW, Judy, Sean_Hays, Frank_Oliver, jallan
23:13:24