IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-06-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:29:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:29:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-irc
21:29:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
21:29:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
21:29:04 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
21:29:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:29:05 [trackbot]
Date: 29 June 2011
21:29:11 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
21:29:11 [Zakim]
apparently WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended, janina
21:29:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:29:21 [silvia]
silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:29:25 [janina]
zakim, this will be 2119
21:29:25 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
21:29:48 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
21:30:02 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:30:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
21:31:05 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:31:05 [janina]
Chair: John_Foliot
21:31:05 [janina]
Scribe: Janina_Sajka
21:31:05 [janina]
agenda: this
21:31:05 [janina]
agenda+ Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
21:31:05 [janina]
agenda+ Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion
21:31:07 [janina]
agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin
21:31:09 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:31:12 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
21:31:14 [janina]
agenda+ be done
21:31:15 [janina]
21:31:32 [janina]
agenda?
21:31:49 [janina]
zakim, drop item 6
21:31:52 [janina]
zakim, drop item 7
21:31:53 [janina]
zakim, drop item 8
21:31:56 [janina]
zakim, drop item 9
21:32:04 [Zakim]
agendum 6, HTML5 LC spec-review status update, dropped
21:32:04 [janina]
agenda?
21:32:06 [Zakim]
agendum 7, identify scribe for June 30, dropped
21:32:08 [Zakim]
agendum 8, Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience, dropped
21:32:11 [Zakim]
agendum 9, Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion, dropped
21:32:37 [janina]
zakim, drop item 10
21:32:37 [Zakim]
agendum 10, Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin, dropped
21:32:39 [janina]
zakim, drop item 11
21:32:39 [Zakim]
agendum 11, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:32:41 [janina]
zakim, drop item 12
21:32:42 [Zakim]
agendum 12, Other Business?, dropped
21:32:50 [janina]
agenda?
21:32:57 [LJW]
LJW has joined #html-a11y
21:32:59 [janina]
zakim, drop item 13
21:32:59 [Zakim]
agendum 13, be done, dropped
21:33:06 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:33:07 [janina]
Chair: John_Foliot
21:33:07 [janina]
Scribe: Janina_Sajka
21:33:07 [janina]
agenda: this
21:33:07 [janina]
agenda+ Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
21:33:08 [janina]
agenda+ Texted Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion
21:33:09 [janina]
agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin
21:33:12 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:33:13 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
21:33:16 [janina]
agenda+ be done
21:33:53 [janina]
agenda?
21:34:23 [JF]
zakim, this is 2119
21:34:23 [Zakim]
ok, JF; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM
21:34:31 [janina]
scribenic: janina
21:35:24 [JF]
zakim, ??P3 is janina
21:35:24 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
21:35:34 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
21:35:34 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
21:35:36 [JF]
zakim, ??P6 is LJW
21:35:36 [Zakim]
+LJW; got it
21:35:52 [JF]
zakim, +44 is Sean Hayes
21:35:52 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+44 is Sean Hayes', JF
21:36:12 [JF]
zakim, aaaa is Sean Hayes
21:36:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaaa is Sean Hayes', JF
21:36:34 [JF]
zakim, +44.154.558.aaaa is Sean Hayes
21:36:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+44.154.558.aaaa is Sean Hayes', JF
21:37:02 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
21:37:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, John_Foliot, LJW, +44.154.558.aaaa, silvia (muted)
21:37:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see LJW, silvia, RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:37:08 [Sean]
+44.154.558.aaaa is Sean
21:37:27 [Zakim]
+Judy
21:37:30 [judy]
judy has joined #html-a11y
21:37:37 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:37:47 [judy]
agenda?
21:38:32 [JF]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Frank Olivier
21:38:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Frank Olivier', JF
21:38:48 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
21:38:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, John_Foliot, LJW, +44.154.558.aaaa, silvia (muted), Judy, [Microsoft]
21:38:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, LJW, silvia, RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:38:58 [JF]
zakim, take up agendum 16
21:38:58 [Zakim]
agendum 16. "Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin" taken up [from janina]
21:38:59 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
21:39:10 [janina]
zakim, +44.154.558.aaaa is Sean_Hays
21:39:10 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hays; got it
21:39:19 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
21:39:19 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
21:39:24 [janina]
zakim, Microsoft is Frank_Oliver
21:39:24 [Zakim]
+Frank_Oliver; got it
21:40:14 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Navigation
21:41:13 [janina]
sp: Suggestions for attaining DAISY type navigation in HTML 5 media ...
21:41:26 [janina]
sp: driven by external text tracks
21:42:22 [janina]
sp: Have not thought through all the issues on the AT side, but believe what we have is sufficient for support
21:44:21 [janina]
js: So, if we have media resource and two alternatives, audio based video description pluse a sign translation video, we need to create a text track to get navigation?
21:44:22 [janina]
sp: yes
21:44:23 [JF]
<ul>
21:44:25 [JF]
<li><? target='timestamp' data='00:00:47.600'>Impact of Captions on the Web</li>
21:44:27 [JF]
<li><? target='timestamp' data='00:01:50.100'>Requirements of a Video text format</li>
21:44:29 [JF]
<li><? Target='timestamp' data='00:02:30.000'>The Web VTT Format
21:44:30 [JF]
<ul>
21:44:32 [JF]
<li><? target='timestamp'
21:44:33 [JF]
data='00:03:33.000'>Simple WebVTT file</li>
21:44:35 [JF]
<li><? target='timestamp'
21:44:36 [janina]
js: do we need a new label for that otherwise empty text?
21:44:36 [JF]
data='00:04:57.766'>Styled WebVTT file</li>
21:44:38 [JF]
<li><? target='timestamp'
21:44:39 [JF]
data='00:06:16.666'>Internationalized WebVTT file</li>
21:44:41 [JF]
</ul>
21:44:42 [janina]
sp: No, it's called "Chapter."
21:44:42 [JF]
</li>
21:44:44 [JF]
</ul>"
21:45:24 [janina]
sp: JF's question ml looks correct ...
21:45:39 [janina]
sp: like fly-out menus
21:45:54 [janina]
s/sp/jf/
21:45:57 [Zakim]
-Judy
21:46:25 [janina]
jf: what about two text tracks with different levels ...
21:46:50 [Zakim]
+Judy
21:46:59 [janina]
sp: believe same ml will work for ttml as i've shown with webvtt
21:47:33 [JAllan]
JAllan has joined #html-a11y
21:47:48 [janina]
sp: We've both vtt and ttml in the wiki page--both can map
21:48:57 [janina]
sp: Sean, were you able to look at the wiki on navigation?
21:48:58 [Zakim]
+jallan
21:49:05 [janina]
sh: looked at ttml, looks workable
21:49:36 [janina]
jf: just concerned that our ml is acceptable both for vtt and ttml authoring
21:50:00 [frankolivier]
q+
21:50:15 [janina]
sh: It comes down to conventions, so yes. This is a perfectly valid way of doing it.
21:51:38 [janina]
q?
21:53:04 [janina]
fo: are we defining a new collection of objects? are we overloading queues? How do we think of handling this from js?
21:53:36 [janina]
sp: Only thing I've introduced a nest element, start and end, for grouping
21:54:02 [janina]
sp: It only displays as the time is reached on the timeline
21:54:46 [janina]
fo: So, this is a new concept. So, today, you can load queue from external file, or querry. How does chapter concept fit in?
21:54:53 [janina]
sp: I'm not introducing anything new.
21:55:04 [janina]
fo: How do I skip from one chapter to the next?
21:55:21 [janina]
sp: I haven't addressed that side in this wiki
21:55:35 [janina]
fo: I think you misunderstand my question
21:55:49 [janina]
fo: You can load from file queus, manipulate with js ---
21:55:54 [janina]
sp: Is the same
21:56:27 [janina]
sp: All I do is used a text track that's associated with video as "Chapter" kind, and provide a queue ist.
21:56:32 [janina]
sp: I'm showing it's contents
21:57:06 [silvia]
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcue
21:57:34 [janina]
sp: I picked this object and filled in all the attributes
21:58:14 [janina]
sh: so the chapter points are distributed throughout ...
21:58:40 [janina]
sp: top levels are separate queues
21:59:09 [janina]
sh: sublevels are all separate
21:59:27 [janina]
sh: doesn't seem elegant
21:59:33 [janina]
sp: it's what DAISY does
21:59:34 [silvia]
http://www.html5videoguide.net/demos/google_io/3_navigation/
21:59:44 [janina]
sp: DAISY has one structure, this is two
22:01:12 [janina]
jf: sounds like chapter notion is abandoned, these are just specific time queues
22:02:34 [janina]
sp: yes, because original "chapter" concept was DVD based, and this is independent of that. This is a different semantec notion.
22:03:30 [janina]
sh: Not sure chapter was defined to be equivalent to DVD markers?
22:04:21 [silvia]
"Chapter titles, intended to be used for navigating the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#media-resource. Displayed as an interactive list in the user agent's interface."
22:05:01 [silvia]
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#the-track-element <- scroll to the list
22:05:40 [janina]
jf: So "chapter" was a poor term to choose.
22:06:01 [janina]
jf: Perhaps we should suggest a different term.
22:07:03 [janina]
sp: will always be someone who misunderstands, no matter what we call it
22:07:30 [janina]
sh: there's no implication that chapters can't be nested
22:08:48 [janina]
jf: just as with <li>, there was an implicit </li> when the next<li> was presented?
22:09:08 [janina]
sh: but there could be another chapter inside, at a internal nesting level
22:10:13 [janina]
sp: I think the nesting is more obvious the way I have it
22:11:21 [janina]
sp: It's true that we could organize this differently.
22:12:07 [frankolivier]
q+
22:12:33 [silvia]
"<? target='timestamp' data='00:00:47.600'>"
22:12:41 [davidb]
davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:12:44 [janina]
js: Bottom line here, we need nothing new from HTML spec to do hierarchical navigation? Am I wrong?
22:13:00 [janina]
js: We were working on a July 1 deadline
22:13:02 [Sean]
<li><? target='timestamp' data='00:00:47.600'>Impact of Captions on the Web</li>
22:13:40 [janina]
sh: My question is how this is to be exposed into html
22:14:06 [silvia]
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html#webvtt-timestamp-object
22:14:07 [janina]
sp: through xml processing instructions
22:15:39 [janina]
fo: would be very very good if we can keep our existing queue structure the same. It would be unfortunate if we need to change that.
22:16:25 [janina]
sp: There's no change
22:16:41 [janina]
fo: Think we have to do something to expose chapter info
22:18:49 [janina]
fo: We need some discussion on how to do chapter navigation programaticallysp: I can show the same working with DAISY or TTML, inside queues. It can end up in the same ml
22:18:58 [Sean]
q+
22:19:05 [janina]
ack f
22:19:56 [janina]
sp: Only objection I hear that is a problem is that the drilling in navigation is inside queues
22:20:09 [janina]
sp: reason is that representing it on a timeline would be hard, and I think we don't need that
22:20:43 [janina]
q+
22:20:50 [Zakim]
-jallan
22:21:43 [janina]
sh: Didn't et to my point, there's a ? inside the nesting, not sure what that is in the html
22:22:27 [janina]
sh: Not sure what that is
22:22:39 [janina]
sp: It's an xml processing instruction that already exists in html
22:22:49 [janina]
sp: Now looking for a link pointer
22:22:59 [janina]
sh: I understand it in vtt, but not in html
22:23:12 [silvia]
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html#webvtt-cue-text-dom-construction-rules
22:24:20 [janina]
sp: I'm mapping the nest item into an ordered list
22:24:43 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:24:43 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:25:45 [janina]
jf: Want to focus on any cp we need to deliver by friday?
22:25:53 [janina]
janina: also wanted to say that, but also ...
22:26:24 [janina]
janina: showing hierarchical nav points may not work on a timeline, but it can work visually very well, perhaps in a system map kind of display
22:26:35 [janina]
jf: Yes, and nested lists is a familiar concept for web authors.
22:26:58 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:26:58 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:27:13 [janina]
jf: Would this xml be the cp?
22:27:27 [janina]
sh: Would be a very interesting proposal as other xml has been frowned on in html
22:28:04 [janina]
sp: Only proposal here is related to webvtt, so from that point of view we don't need a cp
22:28:26 [janina]
sp: I could show how DAISY could be mapped in, and also ttml.
22:29:06 [janina]
sh: When you have the get queue as html can you remove the xml?
22:29:09 [janina]
sp: it is html
22:29:11 [janina]
sh: no
22:30:10 [janina]
sh: xml processing is suggested to be ignored by dev html
22:30:25 [silvia]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
22:30:33 [silvia]
ProcessingInstruction
22:31:24 [janina]
sh: I see no need because of this, nothing is different
22:31:39 [janina]
sp: it's all part of the dom, text, event, etc
22:32:03 [janina]
sp: Perhaps an example into the spec of how the hierarchical ml would work, an informative section
22:33:42 [janina]
jf: If we get this xml processing piece to a point where there's agreement, are you otherwise comfortable with this?
22:35:10 [janina]
jb: Best that we keep this, so putting a proposal means there will be a call for counter proposals, and from that we can work toward the best approach.
22:35:57 [janina]
jb: How much to get this done?
22:36:01 [janina]
sp: It's due Friday
22:36:50 [janina]
sp: I suggest I forward this myself, as a cp, since we don't have agreement in the group. That would take a couple hours.
22:37:08 [janina]
jf: People were saying it would be good to have examples in addition to vtt
22:37:11 [janina]
sp: Yes, will do.
22:37:35 [janina]
zakim, take up item 14
22:37:35 [Zakim]
agendum 14. "Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience" taken up [from janina]
22:37:37 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:37:38 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:38:10 [janina]
jf: I think aria-described won't work, fundamentally, unfortunately.
22:38:32 [janina]
jf: It's because it's off page so can't focus and links and ml would be lost, because they're outside of the viewport
22:38:42 [janina]
jf: it's all about tab focus
22:39:00 [silvia]
aria-describedby is not off-page
22:39:26 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:39:26 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:39:58 [janina]
jf: then we don't meet the design
22:40:09 [janina]
leonie: every designer will hate it
22:40:30 [janina]
sp: for that we've ... [[missed]
22:40:44 [janina]
sp: it's inside the video element, so it's fallback, not visually presented, but in the dom
22:41:03 [janina]
jf: can't have it in the dom and not available to sighted users
22:41:31 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:41:31 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:43:46 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:43:46 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:45:03 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:45:03 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:45:54 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:45:54 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:46:53 [judy]
judy has joined #html-a11y
22:50:31 [JF]
<video>
22:50:32 [JF]
<p id="posterdescription">This <a href=""></a>link</a> is a tab-focus item</p>
22:50:34 [JF]
</video>
22:51:26 [davidb]
davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:56:15 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:56:15 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:57:15 [Zakim]
-Frank_Oliver
22:58:54 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:58:54 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:59:43 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:59:43 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
23:00:15 [judy]
[Judy sends regrets for next week; will be away]
23:00:46 [janina]
jf: Silvia will submit a cp on nav, we'll keep discussing it and other approaches. And, we'll keep working on poster.
23:00:57 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:00:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
23:01:14 [Zakim]
-LJW
23:01:21 [Zakim]
-Sean_Hays
23:01:27 [Zakim]
-silvia
23:01:29 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
23:01:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, John_Foliot, Judy
23:01:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see davidb, judy, frankolivier, silvia, RRSAgent, Sean, JF, janina, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
23:13:10 [Zakim]
-Judy
23:13:13 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
23:13:24 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:13:24 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, silvia, janina, LJW, Judy, Sean_Hays, Frank_Oliver, jallan
23:13:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:13:38 [janina]
rrsagent make minutes
23:13:46 [silvia]
janina, did you see my direct message?
23:14:15 [silvia]
would you mind giving http://www.html5videoguide.net/demos/google_io/3_navigation/ a whirl and see if you can navigate that video?
23:24:09 [janina]
Hi, Silvia, just stumbled back in here and see your msg
23:24:17 [janina]
I'll check out the video
23:48:18 [davidb]
davidb has joined #html-a11y