IRC log of css on 2011-06-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:37:00 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:37:00 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-irc
15:37:05 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
15:37:05 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:09 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:52:50 [kimberlyblessing]: kimberlyblessing has joined #css
15:53:54 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:01 [Zakim]: +??P0
15:54:23 [Florianr]: Zakim, I am ??P0
15:54:23 [Zakim]: +Florianr; got it
15:55:49 [Zakim]: +plinss
15:56:32 [Zakim]: +??P14
15:56:37 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:56:37 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:57:52 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
15:58:00 [hober]: Zakim, Apple has hober
15:58:00 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
15:58:24 [Zakim]: +kimberlyblessing
15:58:44 [Zakim]: +??P32
15:58:44 [anne]: anne has joined #css
15:58:49 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
15:58:56 [anne]: I need a couple of minutes to set up things, but I can make it today
15:59:06 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p32 is me
15:59:06 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
15:59:07 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
15:59:08 [anne]: I literally just arrived in my office
15:59:41 [anne]: Luggage got left behind and then the Flytoget didn't leave in twenty minutes so I decided to take the express bus... anyway...
15:59:48 [murakami]: murakami has joined #css
15:59:51 [jdaggett]: jdaggett has joined #css
15:59:58 [Zakim]: + +1.415.832.aaaa
16:00:15 [Zakim]: +smfr
16:00:15 [glazou]: Zakim, aaaa is arno
16:00:15 [Zakim]: +arno; got it
16:00:19 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:00:31 [arronei_]: zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:31 [Zakim]: +arronei_; got it
16:00:37 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:00:45 [dbaron_phone]: dbaron_phone has joined #css
16:00:47 [johnjan]: johnjan has joined #css
16:01:18 [stearns]: stearns has joined #css
16:01:19 [dbaron_phone]: I have to be in 2 meetings at once right now
16:01:30 [Zakim]: +stearns
16:01:34 [glazou]: dbaron_phone: pick the most important then
16:01:44 [arronei_]: css is the most important
16:01:50 [glazou]: eh, not always
16:02:45 [anne]: Zakim, passcode?
16:02:57 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), anne
16:03:03 [Zakim]: +??P6
16:03:09 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:03:12 [jdaggett]: zakim, ??p5 is me
16:03:16 [glazou]: Zakim, who is noisy?
16:03:21 [Zakim]: I already had ??P5 as +1.757.604.aamm, jdaggett
16:03:30 [Zakim]: glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Florianr (35%), ??P6 (55%)
16:03:32 [jdaggett]: zakim, ??p6 is me
16:03:40 [Zakim]: +??P20
16:03:44 [Zakim]: +jdaggett; got it
16:03:48 [anne]: Zakim, ??P20 is me
16:03:52 [Zakim]: +anne; got it
16:04:07 [Zakim]: +bradk
16:04:08 [johnjan]: zakim, microsoft has johnjan
16:04:08 [Zakim]: +johnjan; got it
16:04:21 [Zakim]: +??P16
16:04:24 [Evan]: Evan has joined #css
16:04:26 [glazou]: member:Zakim, who is noisy?
16:04:31 [glazou]: sigh
16:05:16 [glazou]: zakim, who is here ?
16:05:16 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Florianr, plinss, glazou, [Apple], kimberlyblessing, kojiishi, arno, smfr, arronei_, [Microsoft], stearns, jdaggett, anne, bradk, ??P16
16:05:20 [Zakim]: [Apple] has hober
16:05:20 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has johnjan
16:05:21 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Evan, bradk, stearns, johnjan, jdaggett, murakami, smfr, oyvind, anne, kimberlyblessing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, arno, Florianr, kojiishi, konaya, Martijnc,
16:05:26 [Zakim]: ... shepazu, Hixie, davve`, karl, Ms2ger, TabAtkins, arronei_, lhnz, Florian, CSSWG_LogBot, davve, fantasai, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober, Bert, plinss
16:05:37 [fantasai]: Zakim, ??P16 is me
16:05:37 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
16:05:38 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_ has joined #css
16:06:32 [Zakim]: +Oliver_Goldman
16:06:54 [smfr]: scribenick: smfr
16:07:02 [Zakim]: + +1.281.305.aabb
16:07:10 [TabAtkins_]: zakim, aabb is me
16:07:10 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins_; got it
16:07:15 [vhardy]: vhardy has joined #css
16:07:24 [smfr]: Extra Agenda items?
16:07:31 [Zakim]: +Cathy
16:07:44 [smfr]: Topic: Publications / Review requests
16:07:46 [dbaron]: By starting first, CSS wins :-)
16:07:46 [Cathy_]: Cathy_ has joined #css
16:07:49 [smfr]: Namespaces
16:08:01 [davve`]: davve` has left #css
16:08:05 [smfr]: plinss: ready to request PR for Namespaces. i18n removed objection
16:08:14 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
16:08:22 [anne]: Request for finding: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
16:08:25 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
16:08:30 [danielweck]: danielweck has joined #css
16:08:31 [dbaron]: "This passcode is not valid."
16:08:50 [anne]: was for me
16:08:52 [smfr]: CSS Exclusions
16:08:54 [dbaron]: (6 times so far)
16:09:01 [anne]: ask the operator?
16:09:05 [Ms2ger]: Zakim, what is the passcode?
16:09:05 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Ms2ger
16:09:07 [anne]: might be overload issue or something
16:09:10 [dbaron]: oh, I know the passcode
16:09:13 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
16:09:15 [dbaron]: it's just Zakim is really picky about tones
16:09:20 [dbaron]: Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
16:09:20 [Zakim]: +dbaron; got it
16:09:21 [smfr]: vincent: not ready for publication yet. still working on use cases etc.
16:09:22 [Ms2ger]: I see
16:09:31 [smfr]: CSS Speech
16:09:33 [anne]: I had a similar problem trying to join HTML/XML the other day
16:09:55 [dbaron]: Was there a resolution on publishing namespaces?
16:09:56 [smfr]: (danielweck not on the call)
16:10:12 [smfr]: CSS3 Images
16:10:20 [smfr]: Tab sent a list of changes
16:10:52 [Ms2ger]: (When namespaces goes to PR, can selectors become a REC?)
16:11:07 [smfr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0716.html
16:11:38 [smfr]: fantasai: section 5.1 it's unclear what changed. we have resolution to change the degrees issue with gradients
16:11:52 [smfr]: fantasai: what is the current meaning of the keywords in the draft?
16:12:02 [smfr]: bradk: it's opposite
16:12:07 [glazou]: Ms2ger: I hope yes
16:12:15 [smfr]: fantasai: should make it consistent with the previous WD and then mark it an issue
16:12:25 [smfr]: TabAtkins: i will do it
16:12:50 [smfr]: will revisit next week
16:13:27 [fantasai]: http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2011/06/22/resolutions_167
16:13:38 [smfr]: CSS Module Templates
16:13:44 [danielweck]: PS: I'm on the IRC...still trying to connect on SIP
16:13:57 [smfr]: fantasai: had some feedback from jdaggett and dbaron; have not incorporated feedback from dbaron yet
16:14:09 [dbaron]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
16:14:12 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
16:14:18 [Ms2ger]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
16:14:28 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0509.html
16:14:34 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0534.html
16:14:38 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:14:50 [smfr]: jdaggett: the intro is separated from the body by 3 sections which contain info that should be in a preface
16:15:02 [smfr]: suggests an initial section with that stuff in
16:15:17 [Zakim]: +??P30
16:15:33 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P30 is me
16:15:33 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:16:01 [smfr]: TabAtkins: agrees; boilerplate stuff should be collected together at beginning or end
16:16:48 [smfr]: Florian: would prefer it be at the top
16:17:57 [smfr]: fantasai: don't want it to merge with the status section. Move Document Conventions section to the conformance section near the end?
16:18:09 [dbaron]: I wonder how much we can do and remain compliant to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules
16:18:15 [smfr]: jdaggett: put after TOC, before Intro
16:18:30 [smfr]: TabAtkins: how much flexibility do we have with the Status section?
16:18:46 [smfr]: fantasai: there is some useful stuff, but much is not useful
16:19:08 [smfr]: glazou: we don't have total flexibility. see pubrules above
16:19:27 [smfr]: jdaggett: confused by the formatting. issues sprinkled all over the place
16:19:48 [smfr]: fantasai: these are things that need to be replaced. they come from the template
16:20:07 [dbaron]: pubrules do appear to require Abstract, then SOTD, then TOC
16:20:16 [smfr]: jdaggett: all the issues imply that there's something wrong with the template
16:20:56 [smfr]: glazou: jdaggett wants another way to showing this
16:21:09 [smfr]: jdaggett: issue is not the meaning that's implied here
16:21:38 [dbaron]: I actually like the big "Issue" markers for actual issues
16:22:15 [smfr]: smfr: this is a template after all. does it matter?
16:22:50 [smfr]: jdaggett: there are people coming into the group who will be confused by all these issues
16:22:58 [dbaron]: dbaron: I think we should not worry about what the template looks like, only what the resulting spec looks like.
16:22:59 [smfr]: plinss: ugly is better!
16:24:21 [smfr]: Florian: put all the boilerplate at the bottom?
16:24:38 [smfr]: TabAtkins: put all the boilerplate related to implementors at the bottom?
16:24:49 [smfr]: glazou: not sure we can do that?
16:24:51 [smfr]: fantasai: we can, and have
16:25:29 [smfr]: glazou: specs are made for implementors, not authors, so do we care?
16:25:34 [smfr]: TabAtkins: some authors read specs.
16:25:44 [smfr]: glazou: they can skip that section
16:26:00 [smfr]: fantasai: we can move down; what matters is what's normative, and what's informative
16:26:16 [smfr]: fantasai: values section can be tailored based on the spec
16:26:18 [Florianr]: I didn't mean "put all the boilerplate at the bottom", but "put all the boilerplate that immediately follows introduction to immediately before introduction".
16:26:40 [smfr]: glazou: suggest fantasai comes up with a reshaped template and we discuss again
16:26:58 [smfr]: Publication request: CSS3 Speech
16:27:20 [smfr]: danielweck: would like to publish CSS3 Speech as LCWD
16:27:44 [smfr]: danielweck: there has been discussion about epub3 media overlays, but believes that this does not interact with css3 speech
16:28:19 [smfr]: smfr: what would a test suite look like?
16:28:49 [smfr]: danielweck: there's some discussion; would have to talk to implementors about implementation
16:29:16 [smfr]: danielweck: LCWD does not require test suite
16:29:25 [smfr]: TabAtkins: right; needs suite to exit CR
16:30:00 [smfr]: danielweck: would be good to have new WD, but a LCWD would give the draft more presence
16:30:11 [smfr]: glazou: and triggers comments from other WGs
16:30:23 [Zakim]: -danielweck
16:30:32 [smfr]: glazou: please list in email the WGs you think are interested
16:31:03 [smfr]: glazou: fantasai you need another week?
16:31:10 [Zakim]: +??P35
16:31:12 [smfr]: fantasai: i can review before Tuesday
16:31:18 [dbaron]: Zakim, ??P35 is danielweck
16:31:18 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:32:05 [smfr]: RESOLVED: publish CSS3 Speech next week
16:32:10 [fantasai]: as LCWD
16:32:12 [smfr]: Topic: Seattle F2F
16:32:47 [smfr]: vincent: trying to find a room to host at Adobe, but also working with Microsoft to find space
16:32:59 [smfr]: sylvaing: assuming that folks will prefer Seattle
16:35:14 [smfr]: glazou: before going on, but do we still keep this July F2F?
16:35:45 [smfr]: jdaggett: we have a lot of work and having a F2F makes sense
16:36:21 [smfr]: glazou: is that opinion shared?
16:36:27 [smfr]: [general yes]
16:36:33 [smfr]: glazou: are the dates firm?
16:36:35 [smfr]: [general yes]
16:36:42 [smfr]: RESOLVED: Seattle dates are firm
16:36:55 [smfr]: glazou: sylvaing, when can you post an update on the final location
16:37:01 [smfr]: sylvaing: end of next week, pref. earlier?
16:37:33 [smfr]: sylvaing: hotels might book up because its a busy weekend
16:38:06 [smfr]: johnjan: hotel on the wiki is close to Adobe for sure
16:38:33 [dbaron]: wiki url?
16:38:42 [smfr]: vincent: Marriott Courtyard is listed or the SVG meetin
16:38:43 [smfr]: g
16:39:05 [anne]: not listed on http://wiki.csswg.org/planning ?
16:39:10 [anne]: (it's not, I mean)
16:39:12 [vhardy]: vhardy has joined #css
16:39:20 [vhardy]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011
16:39:47 [smfr]: anne: when can we have an agenda?
16:40:21 [smfr]: glazou: we would like to talk with anne about the CSS OM
16:40:28 [smfr]: Topic CSS OM
16:40:41 [smfr]: anne: CSS OM hasn't changed for a while (been on vacation)
16:40:51 [dbaron]: And the dates are June 24-26, correct?
16:41:09 [Ms2ger]: July?
16:41:12 [smfr]: Aug 2010: implementors would experiment to see if the proposed values API makes sense
16:41:12 [dbaron]: And the dates are July 24-26, correct?
16:41:22 [smfr]: anne: hasn't had any feedback from implementors
16:41:23 [Florianr]: July 24-26, yes.
16:41:46 [smfr]: anne: need more discussion for caret position(?)
16:42:04 [smfr]: anne: dbaron raised issue with media query listeners and when listeners are called
16:42:36 [smfr]: anne: TabAtkins suggested new APIs for location of elements on screen, border boxes, margin boxes, including transforms
16:42:53 [smfr]: anne: unclear if need more than getBoundingClient rect etc.
16:43:15 [smfr]: glazou: i sent mail "CSS OM list of issues" in May
16:43:33 [smfr]: anne: these are new feature requests; I haven't looked into them in detail
16:43:49 [smfr]: glazou: what's the immediate future for the document?
16:44:09 [smfr]: anne: need feedback from implementors before things can proceed
16:44:28 [smfr]: glazou: would a first public WD give it more visibility
16:44:32 [smfr]: anne: yes
16:44:52 [smfr]: glazou: is there immediate work to make it ready for first public WD?
16:45:32 [smfr]: anne: no, but would like link to current editors draft
16:46:19 [smfr]: smfr: shouldnt' we just publish WD more frequently
16:46:35 [Zakim]: -danielweck
16:46:50 [smfr]: fantasai: we should publish new WD when there are significant changes
16:46:52 [Zakim]: +??P5
16:46:57 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:46:57 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:47:36 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
16:47:37 [smfr]: glazou: the W3C needs to produce stable documents
16:48:05 [smfr]: jdaggett: the font spec does this. doesn't seem like an issue
16:48:21 [smfr]: anne: why would you review the WD when the ED has lots of fixes
16:48:55 [smfr]: glazou: in CSS 2.1 we've backed out changes, to it can happen that the ED is wrong
16:49:06 [smfr]: glazou: WD needs to be stable
16:49:25 [tantek]: IETF drafts have expiration dates, what's the historical reason why WDs don't have expiration dates?
16:49:31 [smfr]: glazou: :)
16:49:36 [tantek]: or rather, could we, as one WG, put expiration dates in our WDs?
16:49:45 [smfr]: glazou: should we link to the editors draft here?
16:49:53 [smfr]: fantasai: we should have this in the template and do this for all WDs
16:50:00 [tantek]: fantasai - agreed
16:50:11 [tantek]: all WDs should link to their EDs
16:50:17 [Ms2ger]: Absolutely
16:50:38 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Add editor's draft link to module template
16:50:43 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Publish CSSOM as FPWD
16:50:45 [smfr]: RESOLVED: and add link to editors drafts in all working drafts
16:50:52 [tantek]: :)
16:51:32 [smfr]: Topic: CSS Fonts etc
16:51:53 [smfr]: jdaggett: glen adams from samsung has objected to any kind of same origin restriction
16:52:08 [smfr]: need to resolve whether the same origin restriction is removed from the CSS3 Fonts spec
16:52:13 [tantek]: re: channel topic, I don't see krinh in the channel, and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ times out. It appears the irc logs are down.
16:52:27 [Ms2ger]: tantek, known issue
16:52:35 [smfr]: jdaggett: propose this as s topic for next week
16:52:47 [tantek]: Ms2ger - shall we update the channel topic accordingly then?
16:53:23 [Ms2ger]: Expectation is that logs will be added retro-actively, I think
16:53:35 [smfr]: sylvaing: there is an organization that has normative dependencies on CSS3 working drafts; it's a problem
16:53:52 [fantasai]: sylvaing: They're objecting to what they see as breaking changes
16:54:30 [anne]: tantek, it will be fixed Saturday
16:54:39 [anne]: tantek, hopefully
16:54:46 [tantek]: thanks anne
16:55:02 [fantasai]: kimberlyblessing: Comcast is also in this group. I'm trying to explain as much as I can to the team how W3C works
16:55:07 [smfr]: glazou: would help to have a liason person communicate with this group
16:56:08 [smfr]: jdaggett: how can they refer to the CSS3 Fonts spec? It used to be 2 specs (fonts, and Web Fonts), and @font-face used to be in Web Fonts
16:56:40 [smfr]: sylvaing: we have to resolve a hard dependency here, since there may be a breaking change here
16:57:23 [smfr]: sylvaing will keep the WG informed
16:57:24 [Zakim]: -arno
16:57:35 [kimberlyblessing]: fantasai, thanks :)
16:57:38 [smfr]: Topic: Line Grid proposal
16:57:57 [smfr]: vhardy: fantasai made alternative proposal at Kyoto F2F, but it hasn't been written down
16:58:07 [smfr]: s/vhardy/florian
16:58:31 [smfr]: jdaggett: this is not my recollection from Japan
16:58:52 [smfr]: Florian: we discussed why we need it, not the details of the proposal itself
16:59:09 [glazou]: glazou has joined #css
16:59:14 [smfr]: jdaggett: we talked about merging this and the Line Layout spec
17:00:09 [smfr]: jdaggett: suggests Florian post an email describing the issue and referring to the minutes
17:00:39 [johnjan]: This might help for the F2F: A == Hotel from the SVG agenda linked by vhardy above; B == Adobe; C == MS South Lake Union Offices; D == MS Corporate Headquarters; E == MS Bellevue Offices.
17:00:40 [johnjan]: http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH4#Y3A9NDcuNjMyNDYzMzMxMjkzODF+LTEyMi4yNDA1OTA2MzE5NjE4MiZsdmw9MTImc3R5PXImcnRwPXBvcy40Ny42Mjc3MzhfLTEyMi4zNDAwNzdfOTI1JTIwV2VzdGxha2UlMjBBdmUlMjBOJTJDJTIwU2VhdHRsZSUyQyUyMFdBJTIwOTgxMDktMzUyNF9fX2VffnBvcy40Ny42NDkzMzVfLTEyMi4zNDc5OTZfODAxJTIwTiUyMDM0dGglMjBTdCUyQyUyMFNlYXR0bGUlMkMlMjBXQSUyMDk4MTAzLTg4ODJfX19lX35w
17:00:42 [fantasai]: ACTION fantasai: post summary of proposal to www-style
17:00:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-336 - Post summary of proposal to www-style [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-07-06].
17:00:54 [glazou]: johnjan: please send to w3c-css-wg
17:01:18 [smfr]: Topic: Charter
17:01:20 [johnjan]: will do. link got cut off anyway
17:01:27 [smfr]: fantasai: what's the state of the charter
17:01:37 [smfr]: vhardy: we have to discuss the FX part
17:01:38 [sylvaing]: this hotel is certainly ideal as it would be a very short walking distance to our SLU office so I'll aim to locate us there. stay tuned....
17:01:53 [smfr]: move charter discussion to email
17:01:54 [Zakim]: -kimberlyblessing
17:01:55 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:01:55 [Zakim]: -anne
17:01:55 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
17:01:55 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:56 [Zakim]: -Oliver_Goldman
17:01:57 [Zakim]: -jdaggett
17:01:59 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
17:02:01 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:02:03 [Zakim]: -arronei_
17:02:05 [Zakim]: -TabAtkins_
17:02:07 [Zakim]: -dbaron
17:02:09 [Zakim]: -danielweck
17:02:11 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:02:13 [Zakim]: -stearns
17:02:15 [Zakim]: -Florianr
17:02:17 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:02:19 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:02:21 [Zakim]: -bradk
17:02:23 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:02:23 [smfr]: fantasai: how do I tell scribenick we're done?
17:02:41 [Zakim]: -Cathy
17:02:43 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:02:45 [Zakim]: Attendees were Florianr, plinss, glazou, hober, kimberlyblessing, kojiishi, +1.415.832.aaaa, smfr, arno, arronei_, stearns, jdaggett, anne, bradk, johnjan, fantasai,
17:02:47 [Zakim]: ... Oliver_Goldman, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins_, Cathy, [Microsoft], dbaron, SteveZ, danielweck
17:03:38 [Florianr]: Florianr has left #css
17:05:48 [Ms2ger]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:05:48 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-minutes.html Ms2ger
17:06:02 [Ms2ger]: RRSAgent, please excuse us
17:06:02 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-actions.rdf :
17:06:02 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: fantasai to post summary of proposal to www-style [1]
17:06:02 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-irc#T17-00-42