15:37:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:37:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-irc
15:37:05 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:37:05 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:09 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:52:50 <kimberlyblessing> kimberlyblessing has joined #css
15:53:54 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:01 <Zakim> +??P0
15:54:23 <Florianr> Zakim, I am ??P0
15:54:23 <Zakim> +Florianr; got it
15:55:49 <Zakim> +plinss
15:56:32 <Zakim> +??P14
15:56:37 <glazou> Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:56:37 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:52 <Zakim> +[Apple]
15:58:00 <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
15:58:00 <Zakim> +hober; got it
15:58:24 <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P32
15:58:44 <anne> anne has joined #css
15:58:49 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:58:56 <anne> I need a couple of minutes to set up things, but I can make it today
15:59:06 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p32 is me
15:59:06 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
15:59:07 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
15:59:08 <anne> I literally just arrived in my office
15:59:41 <anne> Luggage got left behind and then the Flytoget didn't leave in twenty minutes so I decided to take the express bus... anyway...
15:59:48 <murakami> murakami has joined #css
15:59:51 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #css
15:59:58 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
16:00:15 <Zakim> +smfr
16:00:15 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is arno 
16:00:15 <Zakim> +arno; got it
16:00:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:31 <arronei_> zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:31 <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
16:00:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:45 <dbaron_phone> dbaron_phone has joined #css
16:00:47 <johnjan> johnjan has joined #css
16:01:18 <stearns> stearns has joined #css
16:01:19 <dbaron_phone> I have to be in 2 meetings at once right now
16:01:30 <Zakim> +stearns
16:01:34 <glazou> dbaron_phone: pick the most important then
16:01:44 <arronei_> css is the most important
16:01:50 <glazou> eh, not always
16:02:45 <anne> Zakim, passcode?
16:02:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), anne
16:03:03 <Zakim> +??P6
16:03:09 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:03:12 <jdaggett> zakim, ??p5 is me
16:03:16 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:03:21 <Zakim> I already had ??P5 as +1.757.604.aamm, jdaggett
16:03:30 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Florianr (35%), ??P6 (55%)
16:03:32 <jdaggett> zakim, ??p6 is me
16:03:40 <Zakim> +??P20
16:03:44 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
16:03:48 <anne> Zakim, ??P20 is me
16:03:52 <Zakim> +anne; got it
16:04:07 <Zakim> +bradk
16:04:08 <johnjan> zakim, microsoft has johnjan
16:04:08 <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
16:04:21 <Zakim> +??P16
16:04:24 <Evan> Evan has joined #css
16:04:26 <glazou> member:Zakim, who is noisy?
16:04:31 <glazou> sigh
16:05:16 <glazou> zakim, who is here ?
16:05:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Florianr, plinss, glazou, [Apple], kimberlyblessing, kojiishi, arno, smfr, arronei_, [Microsoft], stearns, jdaggett, anne, bradk, ??P16
16:05:20 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
16:05:20 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjan
16:05:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see Evan, bradk, stearns, johnjan, jdaggett, murakami, smfr, oyvind, anne, kimberlyblessing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, arno, Florianr, kojiishi, konaya, Martijnc,
16:05:26 <Zakim> ... shepazu, Hixie, davve`, karl, Ms2ger, TabAtkins, arronei_, lhnz, Florian, CSSWG_LogBot, davve, fantasai, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober, Bert, plinss
16:05:37 <fantasai> Zakim, ??P16 is me
16:05:37 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:05:38 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
16:06:32 <Zakim> +Oliver_Goldman
16:06:54 <smfr> scribenick: smfr
16:07:02 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aabb
16:07:10 <TabAtkins_> zakim, aabb is me
16:07:10 <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
16:07:15 <vhardy> vhardy has joined #css
16:07:24 <smfr> Extra Agenda items?
16:07:31 <Zakim> +Cathy
16:07:44 <smfr> Topic: Publications / Review requests
16:07:46 <dbaron> By starting first, CSS wins :-)
16:07:46 <Cathy_> Cathy_ has joined #css
16:07:49 <smfr> Namespaces
16:08:01 <davve`> davve` has left #css
16:08:05 <smfr> plinss: ready to request PR for Namespaces. i18n removed objection
16:08:14 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:08:22 <anne> Request for finding: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
16:08:25 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:08:30 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
16:08:31 <dbaron> "This passcode is not valid."
16:08:50 <anne> was for me
16:08:52 <smfr> CSS Exclusions
16:08:54 <dbaron> (6 times so far)
16:09:01 <anne> ask the operator?
16:09:05 <Ms2ger> Zakim, what is the passcode?
16:09:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Ms2ger
16:09:07 <anne> might be overload issue or something
16:09:10 <dbaron> oh, I know the passcode
16:09:13 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:09:15 <dbaron> it's just Zakim is really picky about tones
16:09:20 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
16:09:20 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
16:09:21 <smfr> vincent: not ready for publication yet. still working on use cases etc.
16:09:22 <Ms2ger> I see
16:09:31 <smfr> CSS Speech
16:09:33 <anne> I had a similar problem trying to join HTML/XML the other day
16:09:55 <dbaron> Was there a resolution on publishing namespaces?
16:09:56 <smfr> (danielweck not on the call)
16:10:12 <smfr> CSS3 Images
16:10:20 <smfr> Tab sent a list of changes
16:10:52 <Ms2ger> (When namespaces goes to PR, can selectors become a REC?)
16:11:07 <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0716.html
16:11:38 <smfr> fantasai: section 5.1 it's unclear what changed. we have resolution to change the degrees issue with gradients
16:11:52 <smfr> fantasai: what is the current meaning of the keywords in the draft?
16:12:02 <smfr> bradk: it's opposite
16:12:07 <glazou> Ms2ger: I hope yes
16:12:15 <smfr> fantasai: should make it consistent with the previous WD and then mark it an issue
16:12:25 <smfr> TabAtkins: i will do it
16:12:50 <smfr> will revisit next week
16:13:27 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2011/06/22/resolutions_167
16:13:38 <smfr> CSS Module Templates
16:13:44 <danielweck> PS: I'm on the IRC...still trying to connect on SIP
16:13:57 <smfr> fantasai: had some feedback from jdaggett and dbaron; have not incorporated feedback from dbaron yet
16:14:09 <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
16:14:12 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
16:14:18 <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
16:14:28 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0509.html
16:14:34 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0534.html
16:14:38 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:14:50 <smfr> jdaggett: the intro is separated from the body by 3 sections which contain info that should be in a preface
16:15:02 <smfr> suggests an initial section with that stuff in
16:15:17 <Zakim> +??P30
16:15:33 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P30 is me
16:15:33 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:16:01 <smfr> TabAtkins: agrees; boilerplate stuff should be collected together at beginning or end
16:16:48 <smfr> Florian: would prefer it be at the top
16:17:57 <smfr> fantasai: don't want it to merge with the status section. Move Document Conventions section to the conformance section near the end?
16:18:09 <dbaron> I wonder how much we can do and remain compliant to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules
16:18:15 <smfr> jdaggett: put after TOC, before Intro
16:18:30 <smfr> TabAtkins: how much flexibility do we have with the Status section?
16:18:46 <smfr> fantasai: there is some useful stuff, but much is not useful
16:19:08 <smfr> glazou: we don't have total flexibility. see pubrules above
16:19:27 <smfr> jdaggett: confused by the formatting. issues sprinkled all over the place
16:19:48 <smfr> fantasai: these are things that need to be replaced. they come from the template
16:20:07 <dbaron> pubrules do appear to require Abstract, then SOTD, then TOC
16:20:16 <smfr> jdaggett: all the issues imply that there's something wrong with the template
16:20:56 <smfr> glazou: jdaggett wants another way to showing this
16:21:09 <smfr> jdaggett: issue is not the meaning that's implied here
16:21:38 <dbaron> I actually like the big "Issue" markers for actual issues
16:22:15 <smfr> smfr: this is a template after all. does it matter?
16:22:50 <smfr> jdaggett: there are people coming into the group who will be confused by all these issues
16:22:58 <dbaron> dbaron: I think we should not worry about what the template looks like, only what the resulting spec looks like.
16:22:59 <smfr> plinss: ugly is better!
16:24:21 <smfr> Florian: put all the boilerplate at the bottom? 
16:24:38 <smfr> TabAtkins: put all the boilerplate related to implementors at the bottom?
16:24:49 <smfr> glazou: not sure we can do that?
16:24:51 <smfr> fantasai: we can, and have
16:25:29 <smfr> glazou: specs are made for implementors, not authors, so do we care?
16:25:34 <smfr> TabAtkins: some authors read specs.
16:25:44 <smfr> glazou: they can skip that section
16:26:00 <smfr> fantasai: we can move down; what matters is what's normative, and what's informative
16:26:16 <smfr> fantasai: values section can be tailored based on the spec
16:26:18 <Florianr> I didn't mean "put all the boilerplate at the bottom", but "put all the boilerplate that immediately follows introduction to immediately before introduction".
16:26:40 <smfr> glazou: suggest fantasai comes up with a reshaped template and we discuss again
16:26:58 <smfr> Publication request: CSS3 Speech
16:27:20 <smfr> danielweck: would like to publish CSS3 Speech as LCWD
16:27:44 <smfr> danielweck: there has been discussion about epub3 media overlays, but believes that this does not interact with css3 speech
16:28:19 <smfr> smfr: what would a test suite look like?
16:28:49 <smfr> danielweck: there's some discussion; would have to talk to implementors about implementation
16:29:16 <smfr> danielweck: LCWD does not require test suite
16:29:25 <smfr> TabAtkins: right; needs suite to exit CR
16:30:00 <smfr> danielweck: would be good to have new WD, but a LCWD would give the draft more presence
16:30:11 <smfr> glazou: and triggers comments from other WGs 
16:30:23 <Zakim> -danielweck
16:30:32 <smfr> glazou: please list in email the WGs you think are interested
16:31:03 <smfr> glazou: fantasai you need another week?
16:31:10 <Zakim> +??P35
16:31:12 <smfr> fantasai: i can review before Tuesday
16:31:18 <dbaron> Zakim, ??P35 is danielweck 
16:31:18 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:32:05 <smfr> RESOLVED: publish CSS3 Speech next week
16:32:10 <fantasai> as LCWD
16:32:12 <smfr> Topic: Seattle F2F
16:32:47 <smfr> vincent: trying to find a room to host at Adobe, but also working with Microsoft to find space
16:32:59 <smfr> sylvaing: assuming that folks will prefer Seattle
16:35:14 <smfr> glazou: before going on, but do we still keep this July F2F?
16:35:45 <smfr> jdaggett: we have a lot of work and having a F2F makes sense
16:36:21 <smfr> glazou: is that opinion shared?
16:36:27 <smfr> [general yes]
16:36:33 <smfr> glazou: are the dates firm?
16:36:35 <smfr> [general yes]
16:36:42 <smfr> RESOLVED: Seattle dates are firm
16:36:55 <smfr> glazou: sylvaing, when can you post an update on the final location
16:37:01 <smfr> sylvaing: end of next week, pref. earlier?
16:37:33 <smfr> sylvaing: hotels might book up because its a busy weekend
16:38:06 <smfr> johnjan: hotel on the wiki is close to Adobe for sure
16:38:33 <dbaron> wiki url?
16:38:42 <smfr> vincent: Marriott Courtyard is listed or the SVG meetin
16:38:43 <smfr> g
16:39:05 <anne> not listed on http://wiki.csswg.org/planning ?
16:39:10 <anne> (it's not, I mean)
16:39:12 <vhardy> vhardy has joined #css
16:39:20 <vhardy> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011
16:39:47 <smfr> anne: when can we have an agenda?
16:40:21 <smfr> glazou: we would like to talk with anne about the CSS OM
16:40:28 <smfr> Topic CSS OM
16:40:41 <smfr> anne: CSS OM hasn't changed for a while (been on vacation)
16:40:51 <dbaron> And the dates are June 24-26, correct?
16:41:09 <Ms2ger> July?
16:41:12 <smfr> Aug 2010: implementors would experiment to see if the proposed values API makes sense
16:41:12 <dbaron> And the dates are July 24-26, correct?
16:41:22 <smfr> anne: hasn't had any feedback from implementors
16:41:23 <Florianr> July 24-26, yes.
16:41:46 <smfr> anne: need more discussion for caret position(?)
16:42:04 <smfr> anne: dbaron raised issue with media query listeners and when listeners are called
16:42:36 <smfr> anne: TabAtkins suggested new APIs for location of elements on screen, border boxes, margin boxes, including transforms
16:42:53 <smfr> anne: unclear if need more than getBoundingClient rect etc.
16:43:15 <smfr> glazou: i sent mail "CSS OM list of issues" in May
16:43:33 <smfr> anne: these are new feature requests; I haven't looked into them in detail
16:43:49 <smfr> glazou: what's the immediate future for the document?
16:44:09 <smfr> anne: need feedback from implementors before things can proceed
16:44:28 <smfr> glazou: would a first public WD give it more visibility
16:44:32 <smfr> anne: yes
16:44:52 <smfr> glazou: is there immediate work to make it ready for first public WD?
16:45:32 <smfr> anne: no, but would like link to current editors draft
16:46:19 <smfr> smfr: shouldnt' we just publish WD more frequently
16:46:35 <Zakim> -danielweck
16:46:50 <smfr> fantasai: we should publish new WD when there are significant changes
16:46:52 <Zakim> +??P5
16:46:57 <danielweck> Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:46:57 <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
16:47:36 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:47:37 <smfr> glazou: the W3C needs to produce stable documents
16:48:05 <smfr> jdaggett: the font spec does this. doesn't seem like an issue
16:48:21 <smfr> anne: why would you review the WD when the ED has lots of fixes
16:48:55 <smfr> glazou: in CSS 2.1 we've backed out changes, to it can happen that the ED is wrong
16:49:06 <smfr> glazou: WD needs to be stable
16:49:25 <tantek> IETF drafts have expiration dates, what's the historical reason why WDs don't have expiration dates?
16:49:31 <smfr> glazou: :)
16:49:36 <tantek> or rather, could we, as one WG, put expiration dates in our WDs?
16:49:45 <smfr> glazou: should we link to the editors draft here?
16:49:53 <smfr> fantasai: we should have this in the template and do this for all WDs
16:50:00 <tantek> fantasai - agreed
16:50:11 <tantek> all WDs should link to their EDs
16:50:17 <Ms2ger> Absolutely
16:50:38 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add editor's draft link to module template
16:50:43 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish CSSOM as FPWD
16:50:45 <smfr> RESOLVED: and add link to editors drafts in all working drafts
16:50:52 <tantek> :)
16:51:32 <smfr> Topic: CSS Fonts etc
16:51:53 <smfr> jdaggett: glen adams from samsung has objected to any kind of same origin restriction
16:52:08 <smfr> need to resolve whether the same origin restriction is removed from the CSS3 Fonts spec
16:52:13 <tantek> re: channel topic, I don't see krinh in the channel, and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ times out. It appears the irc logs are down.
16:52:27 <Ms2ger> tantek, known issue
16:52:35 <smfr> jdaggett: propose this as s topic for next week
16:52:47 <tantek> Ms2ger - shall we update the channel topic accordingly then?
16:53:23 <Ms2ger> Expectation is that logs will be added retro-actively, I think
16:53:35 <smfr> sylvaing: there is an organization that has normative dependencies on CSS3 working drafts; it's a problem
16:53:52 <fantasai> sylvaing: They're objecting to what they see as breaking changes
16:54:30 <anne> tantek, it will be fixed Saturday
16:54:39 <anne> tantek, hopefully
16:54:46 <tantek> thanks anne
16:55:02 <fantasai> kimberlyblessing: Comcast is also in this group. I'm trying to explain as much as I can to the team how W3C works
16:55:07 <smfr> glazou: would help to have a liason person communicate with this group
16:56:08 <smfr> jdaggett: how can they refer to the CSS3 Fonts spec? It used to be 2 specs (fonts, and Web Fonts), and @font-face used to be in Web Fonts
16:56:40 <smfr> sylvaing: we have to resolve a hard dependency here, since there may be a breaking change here
16:57:23 <smfr> sylvaing will keep the WG informed
16:57:24 <Zakim> -arno
16:57:35 <kimberlyblessing> fantasai, thanks :)
16:57:38 <smfr> Topic: Line Grid proposal
16:57:57 <smfr> vhardy: fantasai made alternative proposal at Kyoto F2F, but it hasn't been written down
16:58:07 <smfr> s/vhardy/florian
16:58:31 <smfr> jdaggett: this is not my recollection from Japan
16:58:52 <smfr> Florian: we discussed why we need it, not the details of the proposal itself
16:59:09 <glazou> glazou has joined #css
16:59:14 <smfr> jdaggett: we talked about merging this and the Line Layout spec
17:00:09 <smfr> jdaggett: suggests Florian post an email describing the issue and referring to the minutes
17:00:39 <johnjan> This might help for the F2F: A == Hotel from the SVG agenda linked by vhardy above; B == Adobe; C == MS South Lake Union Offices; D == MS Corporate Headquarters; E == MS Bellevue Offices.
17:00:40 <johnjan> http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH4#Y3A9NDcuNjMyNDYzMzMxMjkzODF+LTEyMi4yNDA1OTA2MzE5NjE4MiZsdmw9MTImc3R5PXImcnRwPXBvcy40Ny42Mjc3MzhfLTEyMi4zNDAwNzdfOTI1JTIwV2VzdGxha2UlMjBBdmUlMjBOJTJDJTIwU2VhdHRsZSUyQyUyMFdBJTIwOTgxMDktMzUyNF9fX2VffnBvcy40Ny42NDkzMzVfLTEyMi4zNDc5OTZfODAxJTIwTiUyMDM0dGglMjBTdCUyQyUyMFNlYXR0bGUlMkMlMjBXQSUyMDk4MTAzLTg4ODJfX19lX35w
17:00:42 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: post summary of proposal to www-style
17:00:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Post summary of proposal to www-style [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-07-06].
17:00:54 <glazou> johnjan: please send to w3c-css-wg
17:01:18 <smfr> Topic: Charter
17:01:20 <johnjan> will do. link got cut off anyway
17:01:27 <smfr> fantasai: what's the state of the charter
17:01:37 <smfr> vhardy: we have to discuss the FX part
17:01:38 <sylvaing> this hotel is certainly ideal as it would be a very short walking distance to our SLU office so I'll aim to locate us there. stay tuned....
17:01:53 <smfr> move charter discussion to email
17:01:54 <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
17:01:55 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:55 <Zakim> -anne
17:01:55 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:01:55 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:01:56 <Zakim> -Oliver_Goldman
17:01:57 <Zakim> -jdaggett
17:01:59 <Zakim> -kojiishi
17:02:01 <Zakim> -glazou
17:02:03 <Zakim> -arronei_
17:02:05 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
17:02:07 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:02:09 <Zakim> -danielweck
17:02:11 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:13 <Zakim> -stearns
17:02:15 <Zakim> -Florianr
17:02:17 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:02:19 <Zakim> -plinss
17:02:21 <Zakim> -bradk
17:02:23 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:02:23 <smfr> fantasai: how do I tell scribenick we're done?
17:02:41 <Zakim> -Cathy
17:02:43 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:02:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Florianr, plinss, glazou, hober, kimberlyblessing, kojiishi, +1.415.832.aaaa, smfr, arno, arronei_, stearns, jdaggett, anne, bradk, johnjan, fantasai,
17:02:47 <Zakim> ... Oliver_Goldman, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins_, Cathy, [Microsoft], dbaron, SteveZ, danielweck
17:03:38 <Florianr> Florianr has left #css
17:05:48 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:05:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-minutes.html Ms2ger
17:06:02 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, please excuse us
17:06:02 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-actions.rdf :
17:06:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: fantasai to post summary of proposal to www-style [1]
17:06:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-irc#T17-00-42