14:59:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-irc
14:59:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:59:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:39 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:39 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2011
14:59:47 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:59:54 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
15:00:37 <MichaelC> regrets: Marco_Ranon
15:01:03 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:01:30 <paulc> is there an agenda posted for the A11Y TF meeting?
15:01:42 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:01:55 <paulc> ok
15:02:14 <Zakim> +Janina
15:02:48 <Zakim> +??P22
15:02:53 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:02:53 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:02:55 <Zakim> +Mike
15:03:10 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P22 is Léonie_Watson
15:03:10 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
15:03:10 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:03:13 <Zakim> +Lynn_Holdsworth
15:03:59 <Leonie> Leonie has joined #html-a11y
15:04:17 <MikeSmith> anybody have specific items you'd like to add to the agenda?
15:04:26 <MikeSmith> agenda+ media update
15:05:06 <Zakim> +Judy
15:05:13 <MikeSmith> agenda+ HTML5 LC spec-review status update
15:06:31 <MikeSmith> agenda+ subteam updates
15:06:45 <MikeSmith> action-24?
15:06:45 <trackbot> ACTION-24 -- Steve Faulkner to raise bug on ARIA being restricted to a11y -- due 2010-04-13 -- CLOSED
15:06:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/24
15:06:57 <paulc> Do you need to tell Zakim which meeting this is?
15:07:16 <MikeSmith> agenda+ review of open action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:07:16 <paulc> It appears in my log that Zakim still thinks this is the Media Subteam Teleconference.
15:07:57 <MikeSmith> agenda+ identify scribe for July 30
15:08:19 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:08:24 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
15:08:47 <Leonie> scribe: LJW
15:08:48 <MikeSmith> scribe: Leonie 
15:09:00 <Leonie> scribe: LJW
15:09:04 <JF> zakin, who's here?
15:09:05 <MikeSmith> scribenick: Leonie 
15:09:17 <JF> zakim, who's here
15:09:17 <Zakim> JF, you need to end that query with '?'
15:09:21 <MikeSmith> Zakim, take up item 1
15:09:21 <Zakim> agendum 1. "media update" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:09:58 <Leonie> JF: We had an interesting call yesterday, revisiting the poster alt issue (now referred to as pause video).
15:10:37 <MikeSmith> we are now using the term "paused media" to refer to what we had been called the "poster alt issue"
15:10:50 <Leonie> JF: We were fortunate to have Kelly Ford, Jim Allen and Jean Spellman join us. We got some possible ideas on paper on how to solve this problem. We wanted very clear understanding of the UX.
15:11:55 <Leonie> JF: We didn't come up with a definitive result, but I think the UA people have a more clear understanding of the issue we're grappling with. I emailed out an update of the issue to the HTML A11y list.
15:12:22 <Leonie> JF: The concern with ARIA being a CR is that it's hard to re-open it at this stage.
15:13:34 <Leonie> JF: The difficulty is that to use ARIA means that the description is flattened out, without semantic structure.
15:13:57 <Zakim> -Janina
15:14:40 <Leonie> JF: The way aria-describedby works is to reference an id that could be on a paragraph, div or something else.
15:14:59 <Leonie> JF: When the fragment string is pulled back, any HTML contiined is returned as flat text.
15:15:05 <Leonie> MS: That sounds broken to me.
15:15:39 <Leonie> JF: Correct. It's something that hasn't been fully clarified in the ARIA spec, but it's in CR.
15:16:06 <Leonie> JF: So the behaviour hasn't been defined anywhere, and so the question becomes *where should it be defined?
15:18:04 <Leonie> MS: We could let things proceed with ARIA, and try to fix things at a later point.
15:18:23 <Leonie> JF: We could, but if the browsers cannot interpret the fragment strig properly, our solution is dead in the water.
15:19:08 <Leonie> JF: Another possibility is to try and get it into UAAG 2.0 perhaps.
15:19:58 <Leonie> MS: I'm less familiar with the UAAG spec and what it normatively definess...
15:20:17 <Leonie> JF: I've posed the question to Jim and Jean. Judy, can you shed some light?
15:20:49 <Leonie> JB: You've explained it well John in terms of where we want to be, but I would least like to disrupt a spec that's in CR.
15:21:42 <Leonie> JB: I would prefer it if these solutions were addressed as definitively as can be.
15:21:59 <Leonie> JF: The place where we have a problem right now, is with the implimentation that browsers are doing.
15:22:48 <Leonie> MS: Someone needs to file a bug...
15:22:59 <Leonie> JF: I'd need to go and check, but I eblieve there may already be a bug.
15:23:56 <Leonie> MS: I'd file the bug, send an email to list and flag up with the people who represent browser vendors and ask for comment/feedback on the bug. 
15:25:35 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:25:46 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
15:25:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
15:26:09 <MikeSmith> Topic: Text alternatives subteam update
15:26:45 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:26:52 <Leonie> JB: We checked the status of items being worked on, table summary was reassigned. There was some discussion about the thread on the alternate proposal that's expected on longdesc.
15:28:04 <Leonie> JB: Work is still pending on metaname generator and figcaption. The current approach on figcaption is to have the validator throw an author warning, and to draw up some use cases that exemplify the problem.
15:29:31 <Leonie> MS: It would be good to restart some of the discussion with the wider TF.
15:29:45 <Leonie> JB: I'm hoping to get something out o the list.
15:29:51 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
15:29:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
15:30:01 <MikeSmith> Topic: Canvas subteam update
15:30:35 <Leonie> RS: We're looking at how we get the bounding dimensions of an object on your screen so a magnifier can correct it. We're trying to tie this into the hit testing we spoke about.
15:31:21 <MikeSmith> Paul Bakaus commented on the importance of hit testing
15:31:46 <Leonie> RS: We could do this by taking the context for canvas and sub classing it with a drawing object that has the same properties.
15:32:39 <Leonie> RS: Charles put out a proposal to suggest creating drawing paths and associating them with elements of the canvas sub tree. Frank suggested putting the bounds on the DOM elements, but we're trying to keep the same DOM that we have for the rest of the spec.
15:33:49 <Leonie> RS: Do we need to create issues for these things now? Is this the process for after last call?
15:34:10 <Zakim> -Mike
15:34:15 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:34:15 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:34:17 <Zakim> +Mike
15:35:00 <Leonie> RS: Should I reuse the same bug as before?
15:35:10 <Leonie> MS: Yes, then we have the context on it.
15:35:42 <Leonie> RS: Ian has asked not to be the editor of canvas, so who is the editor?
15:35:50 <Leonie> MS: We don't have an editor at this moment.
15:35:56 <Leonie> JF: I nominate Rich!
15:36:32 <Leonie> MS: Ultimately it's up to the chairs, the responsibility from here is on the chairs and they've been having discussions about it.
15:37:15 <Leonie> JB: I'm hoping the chairs are taking into consideration the benefit of having someone involved with the accessibility of this.
15:37:28 <Leonie> RS: I'd pus to be co-editor in that case, not sole editor.
15:37:40 <Leonie> s/pus/push/
15:37:48 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
15:37:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
15:38:25 <Leonie> MS: The chairs will make an announcement, it hasn't fallen between the cracks.
15:38:48 <Leonie> MS: The hit testing conversation doesn't seem to have progressed Rich?
15:39:23 <Leonie> RS: I'd like to see the browser vendors become more involved in this conversation.
15:40:00 <Leonie> MS: This is useful outside of the context of accessibility as well. 
15:40:52 <Leonie> RS: Gettings thing done in CSS will take a long time.
15:41:32 <Leonie> JB: Perhaps those of us who intersect with Frank or David could encourage them?
15:42:18 <Leonie> RS: Defects have to be logged by 3rd Aug, is that right Mike?
15:42:44 <Leonie> MS: LC comments, yes. It would be good to get them in before then, but if we can't it goes back through the same process again.
15:43:02 <Leonie> RS: I'm seeing people asking bugs, are we really entering comments? What's the correct process?
15:43:13 <JF> q+
15:43:35 <Leonie> MS: It depends on the purpose. We say bug because that what it's referred to in bugzilla.
15:44:49 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:44:54 <MikeSmith> Maciej
15:46:06 <Leonie> MS recapping the aria-describedby content flattening issue.
15:46:17 <JF> Revised Timeline and New Bug Priority Policy - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jun/0315.html
15:46:21 <Leonie> RS: I can check on that.
15:46:35 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
15:47:03 <JF> Expectations when adding the TrackerRequest keyword - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jun/0316.html
15:47:04 <Leonie> JF: This is what we were talking about yesterday on the media call.
15:47:53 <Leonie> JF: The key overview is in the email I sent to the list yesterday.
15:49:41 <MikeSmith> agenda?
15:49:48 <Leonie> JF: We need to be sure the string retains the markup.
15:50:00 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop item 1
15:50:00 <Zakim> agendum 1, media update, dropped
15:50:06 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop item 2
15:50:06 <Zakim> agendum 2, HTML5 LC spec-review status update, dropped
15:50:10 <MikeSmith> oops
15:50:18 <MikeSmith> zakim, drop item 3
15:50:18 <Zakim> agendum 3, subteam updates, dropped
15:50:44 <Leonie> RS: The only time that can't happen is if the string is hidden. 
15:50:50 <MikeSmith> zakim, drop item 5
15:50:50 <Zakim> agendum 5, identify scribe for July 30, dropped
15:51:04 <MikeSmith> agenda+ HTML5 LC spec-review status update
15:51:12 <MikeSmith> agenda?
15:51:20 <Leonie> JF: I'm concerned when we say hidden... hideen to who? SIghted users or hidden from everyone?
15:51:26 <MikeSmith> zakim, drop item 4
15:51:26 <Zakim> agendum 4, review of open action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
15:51:54 <MikeSmith> agenda+ identify scribe for June 30 
15:51:58 <Leonie> JF: Is alt text hidden? I don't see it, it's in the DOM, it's not visible on screen.
15:51:59 <MikeSmith> agenda?
15:52:46 <Leonie> RS:To do what you want to do, we'll need to do what we're doing with canvas. We'll have to make it available so the AT can process it. 
15:53:12 <Zakim> -Lynn_Holdsworth
15:53:53 <Leonie> JF: Rich, we really need you to help us with this conversation.
15:54:02 <Leonie> RS: I'll be there on the media call.
15:54:26 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
15:56:04 <Leonie> RS: What I'd like to see you do... if you want to hide the content, I would make it so it can be rendered visible as an option. That way you can have the reference, but once you rendere it... this would also help people with a learning disability, or people curious to see the text.
15:56:43 <MikeSmith> Zakim, take up next item
15:56:43 <Zakim> agendum 6. "HTML5 LC spec-review status update" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:56:51 <MikeSmith> scribe: JF 
15:57:18 <JF> Leonie: has started reviewing the spec and has started a wiki page
15:57:53 <JF> 4.5.3 pre element has some issues
15:58:23 <JF> this was first identified by gregory
15:58:52 <JF> MS: don't recall the issue either
15:59:04 <JF> if there are issues there we should get them into the bug system
15:59:05 <Leonie> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Block
15:59:46 <JF> Leonie: the issue is that information that is conveyed via visual layout by using pre is not being conveyed to AT
16:00:02 <JF> MS: file the bug sooner rather than later
16:00:08 <JF> we can update info as it evolves
16:00:43 <JF> Leonie: the other issue is about the fig element
16:00:47 <MikeSmith> 4.5.13 on div
16:01:35 <JF> question is about using div is a core accessibility issue
16:01:35 <MikeSmith> "Authors are strongly encouraged to view the div element as an element of last resort, for when no other element is suitable. Use of the div element instead of more appropriate elements leads to poor accessibility for readers and poor maintainability for authors."
16:01:53 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/grouping-content.html#the-div-element
16:02:11 <JF> MS: this is a note very close to the top, it is more of an authoring guidance issue
16:02:24 <JF> JB: we should perhaps look at this more closely next week?
16:02:36 <JF> suggest adding it to next week's agenda
16:03:02 <JF> MS: as I look at this, I wonder what is the accessibility problem - needs elaboration
16:03:31 <JF> JB: thanks to Leonie for raising this, we need to look at this further
16:03:43 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
16:03:48 <JF> MS: we have been postponing Last Call spec review to top of agenda for next week
16:04:07 <JF> anyone who has taken an assignment please be ready for next week
16:04:21 <JF> MS: need to wrap up, anything else?
16:04:42 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:04:45 <MikeSmith> adjourned
16:04:45 <Zakim> -Judy
16:04:51 <MikeSmith> thanks everybody
16:04:55 <Zakim> -Mike
16:06:07 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
16:06:11 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:06:14 <Leonie> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Leonie
16:06:41 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:06:42 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:06:44 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Janina, Mike, Léonie_Watson, Lynn_Holdsworth, Judy, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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