IRC log of text on 2011-06-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:30:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #text
15:30:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-text-irc
15:30:48 [janina]
zakim, this will be 2119
15:30:48 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM scheduled to start now
15:30:58 [janina]
agenda+ Action item check
15:30:58 [janina]
agenda+ Any updates from on-list discussion of longdesc counter-proposal
15:30:58 [janina]
agenda+ Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;
15:30:58 [janina]
agenda+ Other business?
15:35:27 [MichaelC]
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15:35:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:35:33 [Zakim]
WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has not yet started, MichaelC
15:35:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MichaelC, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina
15:35:38 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
15:35:38 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM
15:35:41 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:35:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P9, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, ??P1
15:35:47 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P1 is Léonie_Watson
15:35:47 [Zakim]
+Léonie_Watson; got it
15:35:52 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P9 is Janina_Sajka
15:35:52 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
15:36:24 [Leonie]
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15:40:01 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
15:40:39 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:40:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action item check" taken up [from janina]
15:41:35 [MichaelC]
regrets: Laura_Carlson, Marco_Ranon
15:41:38 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://fluidproject.org/about-us/contact-us/
15:41:41 [MichaelC]
chair: Janina_Sajka
15:41:45 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log public
15:43:42 [gfreed]
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15:43:47 [janina]
agenda+ Confirm actions, timelines, next meetings; identify next scribehttp://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action06
15:44:17 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action06
15:44:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
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15:45:13 [MichaelC]
actions from last week: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#ActionSummary
15:45:20 [janina]
Status: Joshue O'Connor and Katie Haritos-Shea have taken up a Table Summary CP
15:45:43 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action05
15:45:50 [MichaelC]
[Done] ACTION: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary
15:45:50 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:46:01 [janina]
Status: Done. A discussion has been ongoing on the HTML-WG list
15:46:18 [janina]
We'll get to this shortly in this meeting.
15:46:23 [MichaelC]
[Done] ACTION: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above
15:46:38 [MichaelC]
should be Jonas, not Jason
15:46:56 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action02
15:47:17 [MichaelC]
[Unknown] ACTION: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element
15:47:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
scribe: Rich
15:48:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: no status on this yet
15:48:35 [janina]
Status: Unknown, don't know whether Judy followed up with Laura. We do need help on LC reviews.
15:49:04 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action04
15:49:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: I believe this one is done
15:49:39 [janina]
Status: Done. An email conversation has occured. At the moment no deadlines from HTML Chairs, but we're asked to get things in asap.
15:49:39 [MichaelC]
scribeNick: richardschwerdtfe
15:51:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
RESOLUTION: close this action as completed.
15:51:46 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action01
15:52:01 [janina]
Status: Unknown
15:52:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: this is on judy to contact andrew kirkpatrick to help with last call reviews on svg, img, and contenteditable for the spec.
15:52:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.300.aaaa - is perhaps WGBH?
15:52:44 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action07
15:53:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
Rich: changing this would require ARIA to go back to last call
15:54:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: in the UAIG, where we had alt="foo" and role-"presentation" we had a situation where it is NOT an error
15:54:55 [JF]
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15:55:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
Rich: the example had to do with entering data in a filed with aria-required
15:55:35 [janina]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jun/0139.html
15:55:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: I will find the example
15:56:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we close this defect and we no longer have a bug on role="presentation" and alt="foo"
15:57:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-pf-minutes.html#item12
15:57:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
see the example by James Nurthen
15:58:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we discussed this in the User Agent Implementation Guide for ARia
15:58:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
<img alt="required" role="presentation"><input aria-required="true">
15:59:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I still see a conflict
15:59:46 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-text-minutes.html MichaelC
16:00:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: this is an example where it is critical
16:00:46 [jfoliot]
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16:02:04 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: aria-required states to the at that it is required
16:04:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: role="presentation" trumps alt in ARIA spec.
16:05:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I want a warning
16:05:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: even though we showed a valid use case
16:07:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: If we have alt="foo" and role="presentation" it is a warning. Do we do it in the accessibility test tools or in the HTML validation?
16:09:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: I think this would be better placed in a web accessibility test tool vs. html validation.
16:09:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I agree
16:09:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
Leonie: I agree
16:09:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
Rich: How do we get this addressed in WCAG?
16:09:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
JF: good question. This may be a PF issue
16:10:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we need a technique
16:10:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
Rich: I am supportive of checking this in a test tool
16:12:10 [richardschwerdtfe]
Rich: Michael you want an action to take this back to WCAG 2?
16:12:26 [richardschwerdtfe]
Michael: we need an action for someone to create a technique?
16:13:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
Action: jfoliot to create a technique for the WCAG 2 working group
16:14:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: the group should create a list of techniques that need to be created but not actually create them
16:15:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
michael: If you want to pull John into the working group that does this that is fine but from a WCAG working group perspective they do not care
16:15:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I will write this up in an email
16:15:50 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action03
16:16:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: I have not done this yet
16:16:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: will do so however
16:16:39 [janina]
zakim, next item
16:16:39 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
16:16:45 [janina]
q?
16:16:51 [janina]
ack ja
16:16:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
q?
16:16:54 [janina]
q?
16:16:57 [janina]
zakim, next item
16:16:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Any updates from on-list discussion of longdesc counter-proposal" taken up [from janina]
16:17:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: per my action item last week I did post to the HTML list. We will be look at the aria-based proposal using ARIA for this
16:17:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: this was from Jonas
16:18:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: the proposal is that we leave "it" in and make it conforming?
16:18:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: are they adopting the proposal from Laura?
16:19:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: having all this work gone into enhancing longdesc people may not be willing to drop those changes in support of something that was available but obsolete
16:20:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: these are not just enhancements but they are identifications of deficiencies
16:20:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: these are things the browser could and should expose to non-impaired users
16:21:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: from an authoring perspective nothing has changed. we are specifying what user agents should be doing
16:21:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I don't think that their is an appetite for obsolete but conforming
16:21:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
s/their/there/
16:22:02 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: I am not sure what the it is ...
16:22:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: what do we benefit by making it conforming but obsolete
16:22:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: obsolete states that there is a better replacement
16:22:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: yes
16:23:14 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: we need the ability of the end user to consume or not consume
16:23:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: image maps, once you hit a region, you get the alt text
16:24:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: there is not place in HTML that addresses the user's being able to consume or not consume
16:24:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: ... the corporate logo
16:25:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I don't see it would garner more support now since we have garnered interest in supporting longdesc
16:26:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: there is not steam behind Jonas proposal
16:27:43 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: we fixed the issues they were concerned about and now they still don't want it
16:29:02 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: put the proposal in and let them take their shot
16:35:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we rconfirm our support of the change proposal on longdesc
16:36:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: when will the call for alternate proposals appear?
16:36:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: already done. the deadline is Saturday June 5
16:38:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we will be pushing the chairs to move on this sooner rather than later
16:40:06 [janina]
zakim, next item
16:40:06 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;" taken up [from janina]
16:41:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: I had the Social Security CIO listing meeting at Stanford recently
16:41:46 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: meta generator: I will get with Steve this week
16:41:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: it is taking Leif's proposal to make sure it is cohesive
16:44:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
topic: figcaption
16:44:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: the validator could help us test for links
16:44:59 [jfoliot]
s/links/length
16:45:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: mike smith was amenable to that
16:45:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
thx
16:45:26 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: I will double check
16:45:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we are making progress and can discuss on Thursday
16:46:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: any more on the alt decision
16:46:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: no
16:46:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: we are close to stopping the Monday calls
16:46:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: good
16:46:22 [janina]
zakim, next item
16:46:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Other business?" taken up [from janina]
16:47:04 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: what would be helpful in filing a bug would be to supply emails with sets of examples showing examples - such as for figcaption
16:47:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: Jeff, judy said that you and she were looking at that
16:48:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: can we put together 6 examples of figcaption that are acceptable and that are not
16:48:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
Jeff: sure
16:48:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
Jeff: I will talk to Judy about this
16:49:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: Jeff, are you available on Wednesday for the media topic on the user experience when you come across 4-5 videos on the screeen and you have descriptions for each.
16:49:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
jeff: at 5:30 to 7?
16:49:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
jf: we can put you at the top of the agenda
16:49:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
Jeff: let me look into that tonight
16:50:10 [richardschwerdtfe]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:50:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:50:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-text-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
16:50:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
meeting: HTML A11y Text subteam
16:50:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:50:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-text-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
16:51:05 [Zakim]
-Léonie_Watson
16:51:34 [Zakim]
-WGBH?
16:51:35 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
16:52:27 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
16:52:29 [Zakim]
-Janina_Sajka
17:02:36 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:02:38 [Zakim]
WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has ended
17:02:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.617.300.aaaa
17:34:08 [MichaelC]
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