15:53:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #cssns
15:53:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/17-cssns-irc
15:53:51 <plinss> zakim, this will be conf1
15:53:51 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Team_(cssns)16:00Z scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:55:36 <plh> plh has joined #cssns
15:56:26 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #cssns
15:57:38 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
15:57:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/06/17-cssns-irc#T15-57-38
15:57:50 <plinss> zakim, code?
15:57:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), plinss
15:57:54 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
15:58:18 <Zakim> Team_(cssns)16:00Z has now started
15:58:25 <Zakim> +plinss
15:58:41 <Zakim> +Plh
15:58:49 <r12a> r12a has joined #cssns
15:59:11 <Zakim> +ChrisL
15:59:19 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
15:59:58 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
15:59:58 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:59:59 <Zakim> +Richard
16:01:07 <ChrisL> chair: plh
16:01:41 <ChrisL> Meeting: Normalisation and W3C with particular reference to CSS
16:02:36 <ChrisL> plh: Primary goal is to move css selwsctors forward
16:02:39 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N/CanonicalNormalization
16:02:47 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0231.html
16:02:59 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/charmod-norm/
16:03:42 <ChrisL> peter, is dbaron's preserence for normalise-at-parse expressed somewhere other than his 2009 summary linked above?
16:05:32 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0231.html was wikified (link above)
16:05:54 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N/CanonicalNormalization
16:06:55 <plh> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results/CSS21_DEV/
16:07:34 <plh> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results/CSS21_RC6/
16:10:14 <plh> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
16:14:31 <Zakim> + +1.408.790.aaaa
16:15:07 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is addisson
16:15:07 <Zakim> +addisson; got it
16:15:31 <ChrisL> plh: css ns blocked on normalisation issue, which also blocks css selectors
16:15:48 <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-css3-namespace-20080523/
16:16:18 <aphillip> aphillip has joined #cssns
16:16:21 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/CSS/css3-namespace-test-suite/
16:16:54 <ChrisL> plh: norm is not done on the identifier. implementors not willing to do so
16:17:08 <ChrisL> plinss: yes
16:17:44 <ChrisL> adisson: we dont require full normalisation of docs or stylesheets but we want normalised compare especially for identifiers and namespaces
16:18:09 <ChrisL> ... same ns or not should nor depend on source encoding or order of combining marks
16:18:27 <ChrisL> plinss: so you said you dont want to normalise selectors?
16:18:45 <ChrisL> ad: not require stylesheets to be in a particular form
16:18:56 <ChrisL> ... comparisons should be normalised
16:19:05 <ChrisL> ... but not random text selection
16:20:33 <ChrisL> ChrisL: 'early' norm can men by content autors or at parse time; which do you mean
16:20:53 <ChrisL> ad: content is not normalised all the time. so user agents are responsible.
16:21:29 <ChrisL> ... should they normalise at parse or compare
16:21:56 <ChrisL> r12a:may be a reason to have denormalised text in content. but different for class selectors, id s etc which are compared
16:22:07 <ChrisL> ... may make sense to normalise just those
16:22:18 <ChrisL> ad: interactions with dom and exmascript
16:22:50 <ChrisL> ... wg position is to focus on comparison being normalised. dont care how its done. normalising identifiers at parse time is one way
16:23:11 <ChrisL> plinss: so you see that as just an implementation detail?
16:23:21 <ChrisL> ad: there can be side effects from that choice
16:23:49 <ChrisL> ... harder to normalise individual tokens, but possible. then question is which tokens
16:24:03 <ChrisL> plinss: and what does the dom see and what does script assume
16:24:26 <ChrisL> ad: so yu can't make certain queries anymore
16:24:39 <ChrisL> plinss: not sure how this is particular to nnamespaces
16:25:09 <ChrisL> ad: ns is a token plus an IRI. want them to compare in a normlised fashion
16:25:25 <ChrisL> ... so can tell what ns is in use regardless of document encoding
16:25:37 <ChrisL> r12a: mac vs pc normalisation ...
16:25:45 <ChrisL> ad: mainly filenames there
16:26:20 <ChrisL> ... also vietnamese keyboard different on mac and pc wrt normalisation so you get two different strings that look the same
16:26:50 <ChrisL> plinss: no namespaces in css are like xml - you take a uri and give it a prefix to use. you want to notmalise the prefix or the uri?
16:27:28 <ChrisL> ad: uri has no non-ascii. iri has the rues in it (or will have) for how that works. so main concern is the prefix that has to be unique
16:28:02 <ChrisL> plinss: prefix in css is an ident. so we would have to normalise all idents. but we have author deined idents - why pick on ns in particular
16:28:25 <ChrisL> ad: coparisons should be normalising for identifiers
16:29:04 <ChrisL> plh: so we just published css as a rec, and it defines an ident. so why does this apply to css ns and not css 2.1
16:29:12 <ChrisL> ad: it does apply to css 2.1
16:29:54 <ChrisL> ad: the horse has escaped. so i18n wg is in catch up. not been succesful so far.
16:30:22 <ChrisL> ... last vestige of attempt to normalise is to getidentifiers normalised. if we cant do that then we are done
16:30:46 <ChrisL> ... valid for us t question whether we are doing the right thing to put the onus on content authors to sort it out
16:31:03 <ChrisL> plh; for styling, if the class or id does not match you will see right away
16:31:31 <ChrisL> ad: stylesheet may be dynamically generated and separae from the doc. author can't see why it doesnt work
16:32:03 <ChrisL> plinss: yes, but that does not apply here as ns prefixes are local to the scope of a single stylesheet. only the uri is matched internallt
16:32:33 <ChrisL> ... so there is a consistent normalisation. unrelated to any prefixes used in the document
16:32:48 <ChrisL> ... any unicode in an author defined ident is in the one document
16:32:59 <ChrisL> ad: or if you use escapes
16:33:13 <ChrisL> plinss: esapes should not be normalised anyway
16:33:20 <ChrisL> ad: ok, thats not so ....
16:33:42 <ChrisL> plinss: css ident is asci wit unicode escapes, we dont apllow random unicode in there
16:33:54 <ChrisL> ad: think you allow a reasonable range
16:34:02 <ChrisL> plinss: a small range
16:34:31 <ChrisL> ... i see classes as an issue certainly, but also attribute selectors. but none of that applies to namedspaces
16:34:34 <plh> ident 	[-]?{nmstart}{nmchar}*
16:34:34 <plh> name 	{nmchar}+
16:34:34 <plh> nmstart 	[_a-z]|{nonascii}|{escape}
16:34:34 <plh> nonascii	[^\0-\237]
16:34:41 <ChrisL> ... and frankly that applies right back to css1
16:35:34 <ChrisL> plinss: if we want norm we should require it all the places tat it matters. every place the author can type an ident. or nothing
16:35:47 <ChrisL> ... happy to support that but this is ot the place to make the stand
16:36:24 <ChrisL> ad: our comments actually went to selectors first. its kind of a test case as someone has to do something to decisde which directionw e go 
16:36:49 <ChrisL> ... are we going to normalise some important thins or not. if not then the guidelines need to be changed so people know what to avoid
16:37:01 <ChrisL> .. didnt go to ns til the end. started with selectors
16:37:21 <ChrisL> ... this is a relaxation f out position 5 yerars ago which was noralise everything
16:37:30 <ChrisL> .. realise this is problematic
16:37:42 <ChrisL> r12a: and we need to get html to norm at the same time
16:37:57 <ChrisL> plinss: lots of things do selection
16:38:49 <ChrisL> ad: out position is that we recomend css wg , and we wont object to publishing css ns without it
16:38:57 <ChrisL> r12a: yes
16:39:08 <ChrisL> ... but wanted to be sure we asked the question
16:39:37 <ChrisL> ad: concerned about selectos. concern is we have a web tha is not normalised and not normalising
16:39:44 <ChrisL> plh: bring it to the tag?
16:39:53 <ChrisL> ad: yes (again)
16:40:18 <ChrisL> ad: dont want to make recommendatins that are destructive and pointless
16:40:34 <ChrisL> ... started work towards fixing charmod to say the right thing
16:40:47 <ChrisL> ... only question mark is whether comparisons are normalised
16:40:58 <ChrisL> plinss: csswg see this way outside scope of css
16:41:22 <ChrisL> ... normalising idents needs to have a norm story for comparing outside the stylesheet, so affects html
16:41:36 <ChrisL> ad: and you shouldnt assume the docs are normalised
16:41:51 <ChrisL> plinss: has implications on html
16:42:10 <ChrisL> ... if css normalises a class name but javascript doesnt then there is an issue
16:42:20 <ChrisL> ... needs to go tot tag and be consisten on all specs
16:42:43 <ChrisL> ... tag finding would be very useful. dont want to see a mismatch on identifier handling
16:43:00 <ChrisL> plh: also orm on fragment identifiers
16:43:07 <ChrisL> ad: potentially
16:43:18 <ChrisL> ... iri may require that but not currently
16:43:44 <ChrisL> ad: speaking not as the chair,the horse is out so i suspect we wont do any of this
16:43:51 <ChrisL> ... too many leaks to fix
16:44:03 <ChrisL> ... want to avoid inconsistency
16:44:17 <ChrisL> ... wg thinks we should at least make an effort
16:44:24 <ChrisL> ... tag finding is best way
16:44:40 <ChrisL> plh: css1 css 2.1 - its too late to change tat
16:44:48 <ChrisL> cnt change selectors in css2
16:45:05 <ChrisL> r12a: can start wt next version
16:45:08 <ChrisL> plh: no
16:45:41 <ChrisL> plh: css3 selectors have to be backward comat with css 2.1 as there is no versioning in css
16:46:06 <ChrisL> r12a: in practical terms it would be backwards compar as only a handful of people would rely on this
16:46:29 <ChrisL> ad: this isnt a hugely breaking change its a subtle change for almost everyone
16:46:39 <ChrisL> plh: makes it even harder to sell
16:47:09 <ChrisL> ChrisL: everyone will notice if all comparisons are slower
16:47:21 <ChrisL> ad: only if its a major slowdown
16:47:41 <ChrisL> plinss: this is why implementors prefer nortm at parse time. but that is a sepatrate detail
16:47:50 <ChrisL> ... main focus is what to do with namespaces
16:48:07 <ChrisL> ... takin it to tag is the right way to go. needs a champion on the tag
16:48:42 <ChrisL> ... once we have a stor thatgoes across html and dom and css then we can change thngs
16:49:00 <ChrisL> plh: so .... what do we do
16:49:15 <ChrisL> ... brig it to tag with peter
16:49:32 <ChrisL> ... and css wg decides then moves to pr with css ns
16:49:41 <ChrisL> ... these could be done together
16:49:56 <ChrisL> ... its blocked since 2009 and is not productive
16:50:05 <ChrisL> ad: formal objection is not productive
16:50:56 <ChrisL> plh: want the issue t be looked into if css wg moves forward
16:51:44 <ChrisL> ad: specially concerned abot nt impacting html5 more than needed
16:52:18 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:52:32 <ChrisL> action: r12a to bring normalisation of idents to tag
16:52:59 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:53:24 <ChrisL> plh; hw ln for a ransitin rewuest
16:53:30 <ChrisL> plin: less than a week
16:53:33 <aphillip> addison: i18n will not formally object to NS, but we very well could do so for Selectors
16:53:53 <ChrisL> s/ad/aphillip/g
16:54:22 <ChrisL> plinss: tag currently focussed on microdata vs rdfa. so at least a few weeks
16:54:44 <ChrisL> r12a: i18n will require a lot longer than that 
16:55:01 <ChrisL> ... and aftyer a tag ruig would require a lot more time than that
16:55:14 <ChrisL> ... so is it worth holding up css ns and selectors?
16:55:32 <ChrisL> aphillip; if selectors is published without norm then its the end of the road
16:56:04 <ChrisL> r12a: we have done ok without it so far. there wil be new versionsin the future
16:56:17 <ChrisL> plinss: selectors level 4 is already being worked on
16:56:32 <ChrisL> aphillip: more time that passes the harder it is to effect change here
16:56:43 <ChrisL> ... its selectos, ecmascript, dom etc
16:56:54 <ChrisL> plh: this is already implemented in older browsers
16:57:53 <ChrisL> plinss: selectos 3 added mainly pseudoclases it does not change the comparisons much
16:58:31 <ChrisL> ad: we last published charmod-norm 6 years ago. the we got browbeaten into not requirin early normalisation
16:59:00 <ChrisL> ... its untenable then and we have worked on it for 1 years. so 16 years on we are no closer to accomplishig it
16:59:37 <ChrisL> plinss: because css is modular, norm affect much more than jus selectors
16:59:54 <ChrisL> ... so we would want a normalisation update to 2.1 that covers all idents
17:00:14 <ChrisL> ad: dont want the i18n wg focused on this corner case for all eternity
17:00:33 <ChrisL> ... not being helpful by hitting norm every couple of years
17:01:00 <ChrisL> ad: we can ask for the tags attention and it may be thre weeks or so before we get even a reply
17:01:14 <ChrisL> ... will take us that long to get a discussion document
17:01:27 <ChrisL> plh: counting on peter to advocate for this being on thw agenda
17:01:33 <ChrisL> plinss: happy to do so
17:01:58 <ChrisL> plh: ok so for ns, my sentiment is that we are better off letting css ns and selectors progress
17:02:13 <ChrisL> ... because a lot of chang eis needed and its not limited to just those two
17:02:34 <ChrisL> .. so css wg shoudlrequest PR on both noting te issue is not closed byut  asking to move forward
17:03:10 <ChrisL> action: plinss request PR transition for css namespaces and css selectors, once tag is alerted
17:03:40 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/17-cssns-minutes.html ChrisL
17:04:14 <ChrisL> plh: come back to this in a few weeks with the request i hand
17:04:17 <ChrisL> adjourned
17:04:22 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/17-cssns-minutes.html ChrisL
17:04:41 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:04:43 <Zakim> -Plh
17:04:46 <Zakim> -addisson
17:04:48 <Zakim> -Richard
17:04:49 <Zakim> -plinss
17:04:49 <Zakim> Team_(cssns)16:00Z has ended
17:04:50 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, Plh, ChrisL, Richard, +1.408.790.aaaa, addisson
17:05:07 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/17-cssns-minutes.html ChrisL
19:26:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #cssns
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