16:09:48 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:09:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-irc 16:09:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:09:50 Zakim has joined #ua 16:09:52 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:09:52 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 51 minutes 16:09:53 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:09:53 Date: 16 June 2011 16:10:10 chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 16:10:29 agenda+ Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html 16:10:55 Agenda+ Proposals for definition of user agents 16:11:17 Agenda+ Action Item Review 16:11:24 Agenda+ Review proposals/comments sent to list. 16:11:35 Agenda+ Updated Editor's Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/ 16:11:46 agenda+ HTML 5 review 16:11:52 agenda+ Publication of next working draft 16:28:29 Agenda+ Next face to faceMeeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ 16:29:04 zakim, agenda 16:29:04 I don't understand 'agenda', JAllan 16:29:08 zakim, agenda? 16:29:08 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda: 16:29:10 1. Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html [from JAllan] 16:29:13 2. Proposals for definition of user agents [from JAllan] 16:29:15 3. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 16:29:17 4. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from JAllan] 16:29:19 5. Updated Editor's Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/ [from JAllan] 16:29:21 6. HTML 5 review [from JAllan] 16:29:22 7. Publication of next working draft [from JAllan] 16:29:23 8. Next face to faceMeeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from JAllan] 16:29:39 Agenda+ Continue work on IER items needing content 16:50:19 jeanne has joined #ua 16:50:28 zakim, ping me in 9 minutes 16:50:28 ok, jeanne 16:54:13 kford has joined #ua 16:57:41 zakim, agenda? 16:57:41 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda: 16:57:42 1. Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html [from JAllan] 16:57:45 2. Proposals for definition of user agents [from JAllan] 16:57:47 3. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 16:57:48 4. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from JAllan] 16:57:51 5. Updated Editor's Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/ [from JAllan] 16:57:53 6. HTML 5 review [from JAllan] 16:57:55 7. Publication of next working draft [from JAllan] 16:57:57 8. Next face to faceMeeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from JAllan] 16:57:59 9. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan] 16:58:23 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:58:30 +[Microsoft] 16:58:37 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:58:37 +kford; got it 16:58:38 Greg has joined #ua 16:59:28 jeanne, you asked to be pinged at this time 17:00:22 + +1.512.206.aaaa 17:01:10 zakim, aaaa is really jallan 17:01:10 +jallan; got it 17:01:29 +??P12 17:02:15 + +1.425.895.aabb 17:02:25 zakim, aabb is me 17:02:26 +Greg; got it 17:02:37 zakim, P12 is really JanRichards 17:02:38 sorry, JAllan, I do not recognize a party named 'P12' 17:02:52 zakim, ??P12 is really JanRichards 17:02:52 +JanRichards; got it 17:03:11 +Jeanne 17:03:16 Jan has joined #ua 17:03:39 zakim, who's here? 17:03:39 On the phone I see kford, jallan, JanRichards, Greg, Jeanne 17:03:40 On IRC I see Jan, Greg, kford, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot 17:05:25 sharper has joined #ua 17:05:32 zakim, code? 17:05:32 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper 17:06:19 scribe: kford 17:06:19 zakim, agenda? 17:06:19 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda: 17:06:21 1. Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html [from JAllan] 17:06:24 2. Proposals for definition of user agents [from JAllan] 17:06:27 3. Action Item Review [from JAllan] 17:06:28 4. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from JAllan] 17:06:31 5. Updated Editor's Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/ [from JAllan] 17:06:34 6. HTML 5 review [from JAllan] 17:06:35 7. Publication of next working draft [from JAllan] 17:06:36 8. Next face to faceMeeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ [from JAllan] 17:06:38 9. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan] 17:06:40 +??P31 17:06:44 zakim, ??P31 is sharper 17:06:44 +sharper; got it 17:07:13 zakim, take up item 8 17:07:13 agendum 8. "Next face to faceMeeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/" taken up [from JAllan] 17:07:42 JS: Please register for the next face to face. 17:08:01 JS: If you need financial assistance, there may be help, contact JS or Judy. 17:08:07 zakim, close item 8 17:08:07 agendum 8, Next face to faceMeeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/, closed 17:08:09 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:08:10 1. Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html [from JAllan] 17:08:12 zakim, take up item 5 17:08:12 agendum 5. "Updated Editor's Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/" taken up [from JAllan] 17:08:42 JS: This draft has a lot of work and a lot of action items included. I'd like to use this as the next working draft so please look at this criticlaly. 17:08:54 zakim, close item 5 17:08:54 agendum 5, Updated Editor's Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/, closed 17:08:56 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:08:57 1. Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html [from JAllan] 17:09:11 zakim, take up item 7 17:09:11 agendum 7. "Publication of next working draft" taken up [from JAllan] 17:09:27 JA: Any deadlines or issues with publishing? 17:09:40 JS: We need to publish. We are overdue. 17:09:56 JS: If possible I'd like this to be our last working draft before a last call. 17:10:21 JS: First question is how much more do we have to write before we are complete. 17:11:08 JR: If we have more to write I don't think we can consider this the last working draft before the last call. 17:11:59 JS: If we go with what JR is saying, I need help making a timeline we can stand behind. 17:12:19 JA: Let's make a deadline we can stand behind for the this draft. 17:12:43 JS: Can folks review the draft by next Tuesday, 6/21.? 17:12:50 +1 17:12:57 JA and JR say yes. 17:14:05 SH: I'll try and have a look tomorrow morning. 17:14:20 Resolved: Group will review by next Tuesday the current draft. 17:15:05 JS: Can we come up with a schedule to our second last call. 17:16:37 JA: Publish working draft around 7/1. 17:16:58 Publish second working draft on 8/15. 17:20:47 kf: would be comfortable with last call for guidelines by Oct 1. 17:21:10 js: discuss testing during f2f 17:22:19 kf: next thursday 6/23 to set a timeline 17:23:38 ... when reviewing consider time line for going forward 17:23:54 Resolved: Group to set timeline for docs at 6/23 meeting. 17:24:02 zakim, close item 7 17:24:02 agendum 7, Publication of next working draft, closed 17:24:03 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:24:04 1. Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html [from JAllan] 17:24:23 zakim, take up item 1 17:24:23 agendum 1. "Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html" taken up [from 17:24:26 ... JAllan] 17:26:40 JA: I like the work and would be fine with putting all of it in the doc. 17:27:21 JS: The short and long versions should be linked. 17:27:50 GL: I'm in favor of inclusion. 17:28:10 Sh +1 to inclusion 17:28:54 GL: Is there going to be an SC in UAAG saying you need to conform with ATAG where appropriate? 17:29:53 JA: I don't think you'd fail a user agent because the editor fails ATAG. 17:30:07 Correction, previous was from JR. 17:30:56 JR: ATAG ran into an issue with using the word conform. 17:32:20 JR: ATAG now uses meet versus conform because conform comes with many conditions. 17:32:24 ...instead uses 'meet WCAG 2.0" 17:33:02 JR: need to review UAAG for 'conform' in SC. 17:34:23 JA: Any objections to putting the proposal from JR in the document. First two paratgraphs will go in SC intro and full text goes in the implementing. 17:34:34 No objections heard. 17:35:01 rrsagent, make minutes 17:35:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 17:35:08 zakim, close item 1 17:35:08 agendum 1, Section in the UAAG2 Intro explaining that user agents can be authoring tools http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0056.html, closed 17:35:11 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:35:13 2. Proposals for definition of user agents [from JAllan] 17:35:20 action: Jeanne to update the document with Jan's intro on "relationship with ATAG" so that the first two paragraphs are in both documents, and the numbered bullets are in the Implementing document only. 17:35:20 Created ACTION-570 - Update the document with Jan's intro on "relationship with ATAG" so that the first two paragraphs are in both documents, and the numbered bullets are in the Implementing document only. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-06-23]. 17:35:23 zakim, take up item 3 17:35:23 agendum 3. "Action Item Review" taken up [from JAllan] 17:36:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0060.html 17:37:58 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110609/#sc-1111 17:38:43 Starting with mail from JS. 17:39:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110609/#gl-info-link 17:42:49 + +1.617.325.aacc 17:43:15 zakim, aacc is really KimPatch 17:43:15 +KimPatch; got it 17:44:57 Group talking about how open in new viewport is lost from doc. 17:45:09 Consensus seems to be that this is still important. 17:45:48 JR: The old 1.1.1 was A and this is now AAA. This is a big difference. What's up? 17:50:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0040.html 17:51:17 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:54:33 action: jallan to review 1.11.1 loss of open in a new viewport 17:54:34 Created ACTION-571 - Review 1.11.1 loss of open in a new viewport [on Jim Allan - due 2011-06-23]. 17:54:34 Jeanne to move Intent and second Example from old 1.11.1 to new 1.11.1 17:54:35 Resolved: JS will move intent and second example to the new 1.11.1. 17:54:44 Here's the Intent paragraph that Jim pasted in during the conversation of 3 August 2010: 17:54:46 Users who use only the keyboard or screen readers need to be able to easily discover information about a link, including the title of the link, whether or not that link is a webpage, PDF, etc. and whether the link goes to a new page, opens a new user agent with a new page, or goes to a different location in the current page. This information allows the navigation of Web content quicker,... 17:54:47 ...easier, and with an expectation of what will happen upon link activation. 17:54:49 ...easier, and with an expectation of what will happen upon 17:54:50 link activation. 17:54:52 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:55:54 JS: Now that people see what is involved here can folks review this and be prepared for next week. 17:55:54 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:56:17 Resolved: Tabling discussion on questions from JS until next week. 17:56:34 zakim, close item 3 17:56:34 agendum 3, Action Item Review, closed 17:56:35 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:56:36 2. Proposals for definition of user agents [from JAllan] 17:57:01 zakim, take up item 2 17:57:01 agendum 2. "Proposals for definition of user agents" taken up [from JAllan] 17:58:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0051.html 17:58:08 Presentt: Jim, Greg, Kim, Jeanne, Kelly, Simon, Mark, Jan 17:58:18 rrsagent, make minutes 17:58:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 17:59:34 definition of ua http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110609/#intro-def-ua 18:00:10 Present:Jim, Greg, Kim, Jeanne, Kelly, Simon, Mark, Jan   18:00:20 rrsagent, make minutes 18:00:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 18:00:48 further to Greg's point: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20110613/#def-Authoring-Tool 18:01:07 (ATAG includes examoples of and not) 18:02:08 Group talking about UA definition. 18:02:20 GL: Where does webkit fit for example. 18:02:43 JR: I gave a link to ATAG where we give examples that are and are not authoring tools. 18:03:17 JR: I'd say webkit is not a user agent. 18:03:32 JR: It is a component of a user agent. 18:04:13 MH: If I take webkit and put it in a box and serve web contnet, is this box now a user agent? 18:04:13 same for gecko 18:05:09 mh: browsers are turning up in all kinds of devices. does UA apply 18:05:14 KF: yes 18:05:59 then there is play station, wii, xbox as interface devices to webcontent 18:06:31 GL: I think examples help and to explicitedly state that rendering engines like webkit might not be UA, it is certainly required that anyone using these comply so it is good for webkit and such to comply. 18:08:52 kf: UA builders must understand the accessibility functionality of the underlying components that are used to create the UA. 18:09:31 ...if xyzkit does not support 'alt' then rendering engine and user interface will not make it accessible. 18:11:02 Does this cover the point? 18:11:08 While rendering engines and other technologies used to build user agents are not by themselves considered user agents, it is fundamental to user agent accessibility that these technologies support user agent requirmenets. In building a user agent the developer should fully understand the support for UAAG 2.0 when selecting technologies. 18:12:52 rrsagent, make minutes 18:12:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 18:13:19 marks revision of introductory text: 18:13:46 "A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users or is implemented using Web technologies. User agents include Web browsers, media players, and plug-ins that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content. The family of user agents also includes operating system shells, consumer electronics with Web-widgets, and stand-alone applications or... 18:13:48 ...embedded applications whose user interface is implemented as a combination of Web technologies." 18:14:41 s/marks/Mark's 18:16:52 Here's Simon's text from the Implementing document: 18:16:54 What qualifies as a User Agent? 18:16:55 The following tests can be used to determine if software qualifies as a user agent for the purposes of these guidelines. It divides potential user agents into Primary Agents (the traditional "browser"), Extensions and Plug-ins, and Web-based User Agents. 18:16:57 If the following three conditions are met then it is a Primary User Agent and Must Conform to UAAG: 18:16:58 1. If it is a standalone application; and 18:17:00 2. If it interprets any w3c specified language; and 18:17:01 3. If it provides a user interface or interprets either a procedural or declarative language that may be used to provide a user interface. 18:17:03 If the following two conditions are met then it is a User Agent Extension or Plug-In and Must Conform to UAAG: 18:17:05 1. If it is launched by, or extends the functionality of, a Primary User Agent; and 18:17:06 2. If post-launch user interaction either becomes part of, or is within the bounds of, the Primary User Agent. 18:17:08 If the following three conditions are met then it is a Web-Based User Agent and Must Conform to UAAG: 18:17:10 1. If the user interface is generated by the interpretation of either a procedural or declarative language; and 18:17:11 2. If this interpretation is by a Primary User Agent, User Agent Extension or Plug-In; and 18:17:13 3. If user interaction is not passed to and from the Primary User Agent, User Agent Extension or Plug-In, or if user interaction does not modify the Document Object Model of its containing document. 18:18:23 KF: How many places do we need text that define a user agent. 18:18:47 MH: Glossary, Implementing and SC. 18:21:27 wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Definition_of_User_Agent 18:24:59 JR: ATAG used to have a definition in the introduction but we got rid of it and moved it to the glossary. 18:26:32 JA: Let's mash this definition out on the wiki page. 18:27:29 zakim, close item 2 18:27:29 agendum 2, Proposals for definition of user agents, closed 18:27:30 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:27:31 4. Review proposals/comments sent to list. [from JAllan] 18:27:42 I suggest having at least a user-friendly paragraph in the intro that explicitly refers readers to the glossary for a formal, normative definition. 18:28:49 KF: Simon sent something to the list on HTML5 18:29:36 SH: Does anything that is contenteditable need to comply with ATAG? 18:30:51 All: reviewing simon's message 18:31:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0063.html 18:32:24 sh: hidden attribute. should it be hidden from screen readers. is 'hidden' in the dom? 18:34:12 Simon's mail on this: 18:34:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0063.html 18:34:30 re: contenteditable...might just be editing local content that user is seeing...so ATAG does not automatically apply - only applies when author effects the experience of other people. 18:37:15 html review page wiki for UAAG with process http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/HTML5_review_by_UAWG_notes 18:39:13 rrsagent, make minutes 18:39:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 18:40:33 Group talking about wiki behavior. Consensus is if you make a big change sned it to the list to notify people to look. 18:41:28 -KimPatch 18:41:30 -sharper 18:41:32 -jallan 18:41:34 -Mark_Hakkinen 18:41:43 -kford 18:41:47 -Greg 18:41:50 zakim, who is here? 18:41:50 On the phone I see JanRichards, Jeanne 18:41:51 On IRC I see mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, Greg, kford, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot 18:41:53 rrsagent, make minutes 18:41:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 18:42:13 rrsagent, make minutes 18:42:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 18:44:51 zakim, please part 18:44:51 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, +1.512.206.aaaa, jallan, +1.425.895.aabb, Greg, JanRichards, Jeanne, sharper, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen 18:44:51 Zakim has left #ua 18:45:20 rrsagent, make minutes 18:45:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-minutes.html kford 18:46:08 rrsagent, please part 18:46:08 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-actions.rdf : 18:46:08 ACTION: Jeanne to update the document with Jan's intro on "relationship with ATAG" so that the first two paragraphs are in both documents, and the numbered bullets are in the Implementing document only. [1] 18:46:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-irc#T17-35-20 18:46:08 ACTION: jallan to review 1.11.1 loss of open in a new viewport [2] 18:46:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-ua-irc#T17-54-33