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14:57:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-html-a11y-irc
14:57:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:57:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:25 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:26 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2011
14:57:47 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:57:54 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
14:58:21 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML)
14:58:21 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
14:58:28 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:58:29 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
14:58:51 <Zakim> +??P19
14:58:54 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
14:58:56 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
14:59:35 <janina> zakim, ??P19 is Janina_Sajka
14:59:35 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:00:25 <Marco_Ranon> Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:00:44 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:00:44 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:00:45 <Zakim> +Mike
15:01:19 <Lynn_Holdsworth> Lynn_Holdsworth has joined #html-a11y
15:01:29 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
15:01:50 <Zakim> +Judy
15:02:18 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P17
15:02:46 <Zakim> +??P20
15:03:00 <Zakim> + +44.207.391.aaaa
15:04:04 <Lynn_Holdsworth> zakim, +44.207.391.aaaa is me
15:04:31 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:04:36 <Lynn_Holdsworth> zakim, mute me
15:04:43 <Zakim> +Lynn_Holdsworth; got it
15:05:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Mike, Judy, ??P17, ??P20, Lynn_Holdsworth
15:05:10 <Zakim> Lynn_Holdsworth should now be muted
15:05:17 <MikeSmith> scribe: Stevef 
15:05:38 <judy> zakim, who's making noise?
15:05:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see Stevef, judy, Lynn_Holdsworth, Marco_Ranon, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, richardschwerdtfe, MikeSmith, davidb, MichaelC, janina, trackbot, [tm]
15:06:02 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:06:31 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jun/0145.html
15:06:38 <Zakim> judy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina_Sajka (53%), ??P20 (94%), John_Foliot (5%)
15:06:42 <Zakim> -??P20
15:06:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Mike, Judy, ??P17, Lynn_Holdsworth (muted)
15:06:57 <janina> zakim, ??P20 is Marco
15:07:10 <janina> zakim, ??P17 is Steve
15:07:11 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:07:11 <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P17 is Stevef
15:07:32 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
15:07:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Stevef, judy, Lynn_Holdsworth, Marco_Ranon, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, richardschwerdtfe, MikeSmith, davidb, MichaelC, janina, trackbot, [tm]
15:07:35 <MikeSmith> Topic: proposing additional conformance rules for figcaption as alt. text
15:07:45 <Zakim> I already had ??P20 as AlanB, janina
15:07:55 <Zakim> +??P54
15:07:59 <Zakim> +Steve; got it
15:08:01 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as Steve, MikeSmith
15:08:09 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, ??P54 is me
15:08:31 <Stevef> JS: chairs decision if no alt then use figcaption
15:08:38 <Zakim> sorry, Marco_Ranon, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:08:59 <Stevef> JS: wait a minute we haven't considered when figcaption may not be appropraite
15:09:00 <Zakim> +Marco_Ranon; got it
15:09:03 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
15:09:26 <Stevef> q+
15:09:33 <MikeSmith> q?
15:09:41 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
15:09:51 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:10:15 <Stevef> JS: only heuristic is if its too long, then not a good fallback for alt
15:10:15 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jun/0145.html
15:10:27 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:10:54 <Stevef> JS: can conformance help by defining an upper limit for caption length
15:10:54 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:11:38 <Stevef> JB: from research i have been doing on it the instances in which you will get much longer captions is scientific publications
15:12:21 <Stevef> JB: when i look at the html5 spec they have not contemplated on how figcaption is going to be used
15:12:57 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask for a pointer to guidance that states that text equivalents should be brief
15:12:59 <Stevef> JB: diverse types of usage not addrerssed, only some are suitable for alt fallback
15:13:49 <Stevef> JB: is there a heuristic that could be used so validity is not automatically conferred
15:14:13 <janina> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5.html
15:14:30 <Stevef> JB: in certain kinds of scientific publications the figcaption content was not suitab;e
15:14:38 <MikeSmith> ack Mike
15:14:38 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask for a pointer to guidance that states that text equivalents should be brief
15:14:54 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
15:15:10 <MikeSmith> Stevef: there's not a prescribed length -- not a hard-and-fast rule, as far as I know
15:15:39 <MikeSmith> … when an AT user is in this situation, they don't want paragraphs of text read out
15:16:09 <MikeSmith> … one thing I read recently … 75 to 100 characters is one that people have said is a reasonable length
15:17:15 <MikeSmith> … so a flag could be added -- be if so, it's useful for more than the figcaption case -- it could just as well apply to the actual alt attribute values
15:17:47 <MikeSmith> … anyway, figcaption text should be read out with an indication that it's coming from a figure caption
15:17:56 <janina> q+ to say I don't think we have a consensus on that yet. We're talking about heuristically determined fallback, not intentional quthoring
15:18:13 <MikeSmith> … one of the benefits of figcaption is that it's an element and it can have a role
15:18:23 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:18:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:18:43 <MikeSmith> … to the 2nd point that judy made
15:18:51 <MikeSmith> judy: that was about the appropriateness
15:19:17 <MikeSmith> … some figure captions do not provide what you would want as alternative text for the image
15:19:41 <MikeSmith> Stevef: the advantage of a caption is that the caption does not have to all be read out
15:20:33 <MikeSmith> … imaginable that user can stop the reading of that, unlike for reading out of the accessible name
15:20:42 <MikeSmith> scribe: Stevef 
15:20:43 <JF> q+ to say that much of this sounds like authoring issues
15:20:57 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:20:59 <Stevef> ack stevef
15:21:37 <Stevef> JS: whether we want an flag on alt is a second question
15:21:45 <Stevef> q+
15:22:06 <MikeSmith> ack janina 
15:22:06 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to say I don't think we have a consensus on that yet. We're talking about heuristically determined fallback, not intentional quthoring
15:22:23 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:22:23 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to say that much of this sounds like authoring issues
15:22:25 <Stevef> JS: this figcaption is not appropriate so it should be used while a 1000 word caption should not be used
15:22:59 <judy> q+
15:23:36 <Stevef> JF: its an authroing question, times when its apprpaiate, other times it could be abused, if we can put in a marker to flag a long caption
15:23:48 <janina> q+
15:23:53 <Stevef> JF: thought it was the flickr new case
15:24:07 <Stevef> flickr use case
15:24:15 <MikeSmith> q+ to say that it seems like even many values that casual/naive authors put into alt on img might also not actually be appropriate as text equivalents
15:24:42 <Stevef> JB: i have not been saying figcaption should be thrown out, but should broadly work for users
15:24:57 <JF> ack JF
15:25:02 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:25:08 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
15:25:12 <judy> q-
15:25:29 <richardschwerdtfe> BRB
15:25:38 <MikeSmith> Stevef: figcaption may at some points be an adequate alternative, and many times it may not
15:25:59 <judy> s/should broadly work for users/should work for users across a broad range of different types of figure captions/
15:26:16 <MikeSmith> … I would not be averse to having a warning being emitted if figcaption is there but alt is not
15:26:23 <MikeSmith> scribe: Stevef 
15:26:30 <MikeSmith> ack janina 
15:26:51 <Stevef> JS: there is not we can do on the authoring side, what happens when the authroing is suboptimal
15:26:57 <Stevef> q+
15:27:38 <Stevef> JS: if we flagged anything over 200 words we would be doing something useful
15:27:55 <Stevef> MS: is completely doable in conformance checkers
15:28:28 <Stevef> MS: but in order to add it we need a conformance constraint in the spec
15:28:49 <Stevef> MS: while en mitting warnings is discretionary
15:29:08 <judy> q+
15:29:12 <JF> +1 to experimenting with warning
15:29:38 <MikeSmith> q?
15:29:45 <MikeSmith> ack Marco_Ranon 
15:29:49 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith 
15:29:49 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that it seems like even many values that casual/naive authors put into alt on img might also not actually be appropriate as text equivalents
15:30:07 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
15:30:09 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:30:11 <janina> q+
15:30:20 <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah, it's also a concern for the alt attribute
15:30:23 <Stevef> MS: we could try it out experimentally, but come to some kind of decision about what the character limit should be
15:30:47 <Stevef> MS: its easier to do it for an attribute value, eihter way its not a lot of work
15:30:50 <MikeSmith> q?
15:30:55 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:30:58 <MikeSmith> ack judy 
15:31:43 <Stevef> JB: whats the diffrence between a warning and an error, if its not included in the spec as a requirement then it would be better to be an error
15:32:11 <Stevef> MS: need a normative statement somewhere, would be better in the HTMl5 spec
15:32:26 <Stevef> MS: but could be from another document
15:32:49 <Stevef> JB: go for what is better, needs to be attached to the figcaption
15:33:15 <Stevef> MS: getting something done sooner rather than later could add warning now
15:33:46 <Stevef> JB: what we are looking at is the different parts of the alt text vlaidation decision
15:34:00 <Stevef> JB: and are entertaining a re-open request
15:34:36 <Stevef> JB: if have consensus then want to reopen 
15:34:38 <MikeSmith> q?
15:34:42 <MikeSmith> ack janina 
15:35:57 <Stevef> JS: user agents do a specific thing when the user agent does not find an alt so thens uses figcaption
15:36:20 <JF> q+
15:36:31 <judy> s/entertaining a/entertaining filing a/
15:37:36 <Stevef> q+
15:37:56 <Zakim> -Judy
15:38:18 <Stevef> MS: as far as the part of the spec effecetd by the working group decision
15:38:34 <MikeSmith> q?
15:39:16 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers
15:39:22 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:40:03 <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah, none of the information for how UAs should handle this are in the spec now… which is part of the reason what I wrote up the API mappings doc
15:41:13 <MikeSmith> Stevef: one thing we should be doing is describing what should happen in this instance as far as a browser behavior is concerned -- how to sensibly map figcaption
15:41:51 <MikeSmith> Stevef: there is the case where it should just be ignored
15:42:49 <MikeSmith> ack JF
15:43:16 <Stevef> JF: you said something ealrier, about taking figcaption and dumping it in as alt text
15:43:49 <Stevef> JS: but it sounds like it uses as an alt
15:44:36 <Stevef> JS: something is better than nothing
15:44:59 <Stevef> JF: no illusions that its is alt but its some text associated with the image
15:45:21 <Stevef> JF: agrees with the idea about a warning
15:45:27 <MikeSmith> q?
15:48:52 <Stevef> JF: figcaption is like a special paragraph, a screen reader will read it out the same as it reads a p
15:50:55 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask Stevef if what Janina is describing is something that would be spec'ed out in the API mapping doc
15:51:05 <Stevef> stevef: much lost sorry
15:52:02 <Stevef> q+
15:52:43 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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15:53:31 <Stevef> MS: from the autthroing side, this is what we have warnings for, thats why it seems difficult to make it a strict error case
15:54:08 <Stevef> MS: i wanted to get back to saying is from the UA behaviour side, its not in the html5 spec, but nothing similar
15:54:32 <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah, that is the intention for these sort of things
15:54:49 <MikeSmith> … to at least give some sort of indication about how it should work
15:55:02 <MikeSmith> … I've talked to David Bolter about some this already
15:55:26 <MikeSmith> … I understand the difference that Janina is talking about
15:55:46 <MikeSmith> … the figcaption case gives users greater control
15:57:21 <MikeSmith> … for one, instead of reading out the caption automatically, it could just indicate that alternative text is available in the caption, and asking if the user wants it read out
15:58:00 <MikeSmith> Stevef: ultimately, this guidance should be coming from WAI
15:58:09 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:58:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:59:53 <Stevef> MS: almost out of time, has been useful biut won't get much resolution from this today, so take it to the mailing list and I can then implement something experimental in the conformance checker
16:00:30 <Stevef> MS: we wnated to remind everbody that a number of people have been assigned review tasks for the last call working drafts!
16:00:34 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
16:00:51 <Stevef> JS: need people to start getting reviews in
16:00:59 <Stevef> deadline mid july
16:01:17 <MikeSmith> janina: need review comments by mid-July but want people to start getting comments in sooner, instead of all at once in July
16:01:38 <Zakim> -Steve
16:01:45 <janina> scribe: janina
16:02:45 <MikeSmith> comments on section 3.5 from Cynthia: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jun/0120.html
16:03:02 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:03:31 <MikeSmith> adjourned
16:03:32 <janina> zakim, bye
16:03:32 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Mike, Judy, Lynn_Holdsworth, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Steve, Marco_Ranon, Michael_Cooper
16:03:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:03:40 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
16:03:41 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:03:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/16-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
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