21:30:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:30:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-html-a11y-irc
21:30:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
21:30:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
21:30:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
21:30:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start now
21:30:43 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:30:43 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
21:30:50 <janina> zakim, start meeting
21:30:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', janina
21:31:02 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:31:02 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has not yet started, janina
21:31:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, janina, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:31:12 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
21:31:19 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
21:32:17 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:32:17 <janina> Chair:  John_Foliot
21:32:17 <janina> Scribe: Janina_Sajka
21:32:17 <janina> agenda: this
21:32:17 <janina> agenda+ Paused Media: Updates? Browser Support?
21:32:18 <janina> agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin
21:32:20 <janina> agenda+ Texted Descriptions: Requirements on A11y APIs
21:32:22 <janina> agenda+ 3GPP Request Followup http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0316.html
21:32:24 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:32:26 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
21:32:28 <janina> agenda+ be done
21:32:39 <janina>  zakim, who's here?
21:32:39 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has not yet started, janina
21:32:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:32:56 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
21:33:18 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
21:33:18 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has not yet started, janina
21:33:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see frankolivier, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:33:36 <janina> trackbot, start meeting
21:33:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
21:33:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
21:33:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
21:33:41 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:33:41 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2011
21:33:57 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:33:57 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has not yet started, janina
21:33:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see frankolivier, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:34:15 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
21:34:15 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
21:34:22 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:34:22 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has not yet started, janina
21:34:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see frankolivier, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:34:52 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:34:52 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM already started
21:34:53 <jfoliot> zakim, this is 2119
21:34:54 <Zakim> jfoliot, this was already WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM
21:34:55 <Zakim> ok, jfoliot; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM
21:35:13 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:35:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.468.aaaa, Judy, ??P6
21:35:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see frankolivier, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:35:31 <janina> zakim, ??P6 is Janina
21:35:31 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
21:35:35 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:35:40 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-a11y
21:35:53 <frankolivier> Zakim, [Microsoft] is frankolivier
21:35:53 <Zakim> +frankolivier; got it
21:36:06 <Zakim> + +1.510.367.aabb
21:36:29 <janina> zakim, +1.650.468.aaaa is John_Foliot
21:36:29 <Zakim> +John_Foliot; got it
21:36:36 <janina> zakim, who's here?
21:36:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Judy, Janina, frankolivier, +1.510.367.aabb
21:36:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see frankolivier, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, silvia, jfoliot, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
21:37:13 <janina> zakim, +1.510.367.aabb is Eric_Carlson
21:37:13 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson; got it
21:37:26 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:37:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Paused Media: Updates? Browser Support?" taken up [from janina]
21:38:02 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
21:38:15 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
21:39:11 <janina> We need bugs filed on browsers ...
21:39:42 <janina> Janina also discussed with ARIA meeting this week where the question of UI behavior was raised.
21:40:00 <janina> Also, there were several ARIA issues logged to track progress on this.
21:40:03 <Zakim> + +61.2.801.2.aacc
21:40:24 <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/458http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/457
21:41:00 <silvia> zakim, mute me
21:41:00 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
21:41:07 <silvia> zakim, aacc is me
21:41:07 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
21:41:11 <silvia> zakim, mute me
21:41:11 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
21:42:32 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-a11y
21:43:59 <jfoliot> the describedby spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-describedby
21:45:11 <silvia> aria-label or aria-describedby is not sufficiently specified in the WAI-ARIA spec to include or exclude  markup
21:45:21 <janina> JB: Concerned whether ARIA implementations are exposing CR problems.
21:46:03 <janina> ec: Defs are ambiguous so that's why we have different behavior in different browsers.
21:46:17 <janina> jf: I sfiling bugs against browsers premature?
21:46:30 <janina> ec: Unless we can point to where it says: "Behave as follows."
21:48:21 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
21:48:21 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
21:48:59 <janina> JS: ARIA wants to think this through end to end, especially the user experience with UI before moving to clarify specs
21:49:30 <silvia> q+
21:49:34 <janina> jb: Suggesting Geoff, Jim Allen, Kelly Ford, and Jean Spellman.
21:49:50 <janina> jf: Also suggesting Markku
21:51:19 <janina> sp: It's really the user experience, not the user agent.
21:51:21 <janina> js: Correct
21:52:59 <silvia> zakim, mute me
21:52:59 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
21:57:14 <janina> js: I will prepare quick issue summary to help bring our conversation invitees up to speed on this question.
21:57:21 <janina> js: JS will invite the above.
21:58:48 <janina> zakim, next item
21:58:48 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
21:59:30 <silvia> zakim, ack me
21:59:30 <Zakim> unmuting silvia
21:59:31 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
22:00:24 <silvia> zakim, next item
22:00:24 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin" taken up [from janina]
22:00:47 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Navigation
22:01:29 <janina> sp: Not much by way of solutions, but attempts to describe the problem.
22:01:36 <janina> sp: Needs to take potential solutions to the list
22:02:01 <janina> sp: Would appreciate feedback, including use case, etc., to make sure it's all ok
22:03:28 <janina> sp: Prefers we do this correctly, rather than to a deadline
22:04:00 <janina> sp: Would like to avoid a poor spec just to make the deadline
22:04:42 <janina> jf: Concerned that chapters is a webvtt construct, yet some content will be ttml based
22:05:18 <janina> sp: chapters are a track construct, not webvtt
22:05:49 <janina> ec: agree with Silvia, see two aspects to this
22:06:09 <janina> ec: How to express the hierarchy in some context format -- not our issue here
22:06:25 <janina> ec: How to reflect that struct in html, and this is our problem
22:07:35 <janina> jf: Seems the struct is simple, is it that difficult to express to UA?
22:07:47 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/TextFormat_Mapping_to_Requirements#cn1 <- example of markup in TTML
22:07:51 <janina> ec: We have no say in how content specifies the hierarchy.
22:08:06 <janina> ec: Once we're given that, whatever it is, we need to be able to express that through the track mechanism.
22:08:44 <janina> jf: You're unsure of how to express this in the API?
22:08:46 <janina> ec: yes
22:09:02 <janina> jf: Having trouble grocking that
22:10:04 <janina> sp: Think of it as the ml is in an external file, or perhaps the video file, when it comes into the browser there's nothing in the DOM from thiis ml, it only goes to shadow dom
22:10:42 <janina> sp: So not as simple as adding a list into dom
22:10:54 <janina> sp: we need to find a way around that
22:11:15 <janina> jf: but why not?
22:11:40 <janina> sp: security, other concerns, of introducing additional struct into an existing page
22:11:56 <janina> sp: I'm also on shaky ground here, unsure of how to solve this
22:12:41 <janina> jf: So we're already adding into the dom via track ...
22:13:14 <janina> ec: But, the addition of the track is all that goes into dom, the remainder goes into shadow dom, so only visible to javascript
22:13:48 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#texttrackcue <- this is all we have available in the browser about the cues
22:14:12 <janina> ec: ua knows what's were, and can wire it all up ok, but that's not enough. the problem is exposing it all to js
22:14:36 <janina> sp: maybe we just haven't thought this through enough, maybe it is solvable
22:15:09 <silvia>  http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#documentfragment http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#dom-texttrackcue-getcueashtml();
22:15:31 <janina> sp: it may be that nothing is missing
22:16:21 <janina> jb: how can we keep on schedule while we sort this out? uncomfortable with the notion that the deadline isn't a problem.
22:17:25 <janina> jf: find it hard to believe that a sophisticated js can't consume something as old and basic as <h> nested header concept
22:18:18 <janina> jf: would rather make the deadline with something proposed, just to keep this moving for this spec, rather than missing a rev
22:19:12 <janina> jb: so how do we find out for sure that we have all the pieces?
22:20:37 <janina> jf: asking whether increasing our mtgs will help?
22:20:48 <janina> sp: don't think it's a question of telecons or conversation
22:21:32 <janina> jb: Silvia, do you have a sense of what time is needed?
22:22:03 <janina> sp: I can do it by next week, but it's not just up to me. I need responses on list and on wiki. I can't do it alone.
22:25:22 <janina> js: Wonders whether we've complicated our problem by trying to avoid creating any new file format, or additional piece to create and manage hierarchical nav.
22:25:47 <janina> ec: No, not because our problem will be the same regardless of what provides us the data for where nav needs to take the user
22:27:17 <janina> zakim, next item
22:27:17 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Texted Descriptions: Requirements on A11y APIs" taken up [from janina]
22:27:45 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:27:45 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
22:28:41 <janina> ec: Suggest we're overloading the term 'pause'
22:29:45 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson.a
22:29:48 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
22:31:06 <janina> ec: If time flow stops because text/TTS exceeds video time, that's not pause that's a different kind of pause and we need another term
22:31:48 <janina> js: the TTS caused behaviior is a different pause
22:31:52 <silvia> it's called "paused for user interaction"
22:31:53 <janina> ec: already is to the ua
22:32:15 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#paused-for-user-interaction
22:32:30 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
22:32:30 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
22:33:11 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:33:11 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
22:33:17 <janina> jf: it needs to resync itself?
22:33:22 <janina> ec: no.
22:33:39 <janina> ec: spec already has 'pause for user interaction'
22:34:42 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
22:34:42 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
22:35:11 <janina> jf: a problem of understanding?
22:35:13 <janina> ec: yes
22:35:15 <janina> sp: yes
22:35:29 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson.a
22:36:21 <janina> sp: Thankfully, this is something we don't need to solve for html, it's for the a11y apis
22:37:13 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
22:39:26 <janina> zakim, next item
22:39:26 <Zakim> agendum 4. "3GPP Request Followup http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0316.html" taken up [from janina]
22:39:37 <janina> We're missing people for this.
22:39:43 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:39:43 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
22:39:52 <janina> jf: Can we take this conversation off this meeting? Don't believe it needs to be here.
22:39:58 <janina> jb: Yes, if people are agreeable
22:40:02 <janina> [no objection]
22:40:12 <janina> zakim, next item
22:40:12 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, janina
22:40:34 <janina> re action-109 on sean re queues that come out of order -- goes back to March
22:40:38 <janina> jf: I'll email him.
22:42:26 <janina> jf: also an action on me re a bug not sure what it is
22:42:59 <janina> jf: js can close actions 126 127
22:43:15 <janina> rrsagent, close action-126
22:43:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action-126', janina.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:43:24 <janina> zakim, close action-126
22:43:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close action-126', janina
22:43:28 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
22:43:28 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
22:43:35 <janina> zakim, action-126 close
22:43:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'action-126 close', janina
22:43:38 <silvia> action-128?
22:43:38 <trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to follow-up on @transcript attribute -- due 2011-06-01 -- OPEN
22:43:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/128
22:43:43 <janina> action-126 closed
22:43:43 <trackbot> ACTION-126 Take the user reqs and tech reqs and get that published under PF closed
22:43:54 <janina> action-127 closed
22:43:54 <trackbot> ACTION-127 Work with authors of HTML alt techniques document and HTML a11y user agent implementation guide to add the aria-describedby video example there closed
22:44:29 <janina> jf: action-128 on sp -- refreshed. have updated our wiki.
22:44:29 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Alt_Technologies <- I updated this
22:45:13 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:45:13 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
22:45:15 <janina> action-130 clsed
22:45:25 <janina> action-130 closed
22:45:25 <trackbot> ACTION-130 Should file bugs on this closed
22:46:06 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
22:46:07 <Zakim> -frankolivier
22:46:11 <Zakim> -silvia
22:46:12 <Zakim> -Janina
22:46:15 <janina> zakim, bye
22:46:15 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Judy, Janina, frankolivier, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, +61.2.801.2.aacc, silvia
22:46:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
22:46:19 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
22:46:25 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
22:46:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
23:01:58 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-a11y