15:28:20 RRSAgent has joined #css 15:28:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-css-irc 15:28:25 Zakim, this will be Style 15:28:26 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 32 minutes 15:28:31 rrsagent, make logs public 15:33:51 jdaggett_ has joined #css 15:40:18 dbaron has joined #css 15:49:16 Martijnc has joined #css 15:55:02 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 15:55:09 +[Microsoft] 15:56:07 Zakim, code? 15:56:07 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou 15:57:01 sylvaing has joined #css 15:57:41 +??P40 15:57:50 +??P46 15:57:54 Zakim, ??P40 is me 15:57:54 +danielweck; got it 15:57:55 vhardy has joined #css 15:58:00 Zakim, ??P46 is me 15:58:00 +glazou; got it 15:59:11 oyvind has joined #css 16:00:00 acebal has joined #css 16:00:10 + +1.858.216.aaaa 16:00:15 +[Microsoft.a] 16:00:25 + +1.619.846.aabb 16:00:26 zakim, aaaa is me 16:00:26 +plinss; got it 16:00:26 +??P51 16:00:31 dsinger_ has joined #css 16:00:34 zakim, microsoft has me 16:00:34 +arronei; got it 16:00:35 Zakim, aabb is me 16:00:35 +hober; got it 16:00:50 zakim, microsoft has alexmog 16:00:50 +alexmog; got it 16:01:04 +ChrisL 16:01:10 vhardy has joined #css 16:01:14 stearns has joined #css 16:01:18 +[Microsoft.aa] 16:01:22 +dsinger 16:01:30 + +666182aacc 16:01:30 johnjan_ has joined #css 16:01:32 Zakim, mute dsinger 16:01:34 dsinger should now be muted 16:01:38 + +1.206.550.aadd 16:01:45 zakim, microsoft is johnjan 16:01:45 +johnjan; got it 16:01:50 zakim, aadd is me 16:01:50 +stearns; got it 16:01:54 Zakim, who is here? 16:01:54 On the phone I see johnjan, danielweck, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft.a], hober, ??P51, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aa], dsinger (muted), +666182aacc, stearns 16:01:56 bradk has joined #css 16:01:56 johnjan has alexmog 16:01:58 On IRC I see johnjan_, stearns, vhardy, dsinger_, acebal, oyvind, sylvaing, Martijnc, dbaron, jdaggett, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, danielweck, kojiishi, Ms2ger, ChrisL, myakura, 16:02:04 ... jgraham, fantasai, lhnz, JohnJan, krijnh, arronei, CSSWG_LogBot, TabAtkins, shepazu, trackbot, boblet, gsnedders, hober, alexmog, Bert, plinss, Hixie 16:02:12 - +666182aacc 16:02:14 +??P65 16:02:26 szilles has joined #css 16:02:28 zakim, ??P51 is me 16:02:32 +vhardy; got it 16:02:32 zakim, ??P65 is me 16:02:34 +jdaggett; got it 16:02:37 murakami has joined #css 16:03:05 + +030187aaee 16:03:21 +[IPcaller] 16:03:52 +SteveZ 16:03:52 zakim, who is here? 16:04:00 On the phone I see johnjan, danielweck, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft.a], hober, vhardy, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aa], dsinger (muted), stearns, jdaggett, +030187aaee, [IPcaller], SteveZ 16:04:05 johnjan has alexmog 16:04:09 + +47.21.65.aaff 16:04:23 On IRC I see murakami, szilles, bradk, johnjan_, stearns, vhardy, dsinger_, acebal, oyvind, sylvaing, Martijnc, dbaron, jdaggett, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, danielweck, kojiishi, 16:04:28 ... Ms2ger, ChrisL, myakura, jgraham, fantasai, lhnz, JohnJan, krijnh, arronei, CSSWG_LogBot, TabAtkins, shepazu, trackbot, boblet, gsnedders, hober, alexmog, Bert, plinss, Hixie 16:04:39 ScribeNick: fantasai 16:05:04 + +1.650.618.aagg 16:05:11 glazou: New agenda items: CSS3 Lists from Tab, item from Alex on CSS3 Regions 16:05:16 jdaggett: August F2F 16:05:25 sylvaing: Normalization and Namespaces 16:05:33 sylvaing: Charter schedule 16:05:38 -hober 16:05:48 Vincent: Review agreements on CSS Regions 16:05:56 Vincent: Chris asked to talk about FX charter 16:06:09 Topic: F2F 16:06:10 +hober 16:06:21 glazou: Already in June, so we need to decide about that quickly. 16:06:23 glazou: First, where? 16:06:25 + +1.650.275.aahh 16:06:38 Vincent: I'd suggested Seattle following the ???WG meeting 16:06:45 - +1.650.275.aahh 16:06:46 zakim, aahh is me 16:06:46 sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named 'aahh' 16:06:47 Vincent: So we can have a day overlapping with SVGWG 16:06:52 svg is 25-29 16:06:54 Vincent: That's week of July 25th 16:06:59 jdaggett: So you're suggesting week after that? 16:07:01 Vincent: Yes 16:07:14 smfr has joined #css 16:07:17 s/???WG/SVGWG/ 16:07:19 Vincent: The week of August 1st 16:07:21 glazou: I can't 16:07:31 I can't do week of Aug 1 either 16:07:49 Steve: Could also do earlier 16:08:04 Before is much easier for me 16:08:10 + +1.408.636.aaii 16:08:11 overlap is not so great for me 16:08:17 glazou: Could meet at the same time 16:08:19 Zakim. aaii is me 16:08:22 ?: Some ppl are in both groups 16:08:32 glazou: So first suggestion is 29-31st of July? 16:08:38 Vincent: 28-29 16:08:46 Vincent: Have one day of conflict 16:08:48 28-30 16:08:58 sylvaing: Or we could be before with no overlap 16:09:11 sylvaing: Overlap is interesting model, but weird if there are ppl in both. 16:09:20 +??P11 16:09:20 sylvaing: Ppl interested can just stay an extra day 16:09:21 vincent and tab and I are in both 16:09:23 Svg is 25-29 inclusive? 16:09:24 + +1.650.275.aajj 16:09:25 zakim, ??p11 is me 16:09:27 Vincent is coming back on the 24th 16:09:37 +kojiishi; got it 16:09:42 zakim, aajj is me 16:09:42 John: The weekend before will be pretty crazy 16:09:57 John: It's ??? and they'll close I-90 16:09:58 +bradk; got it 16:10:28 The week before is mpeg Torino... 16:10:55 fantasai: Seems a bit too early, given we want to span gap between June and November, and this is in July 16:11:11 glazou: Yeah, probably too early. Not enough agenda items. 16:11:23 sylvaing: Reason for another meeting is we have a lot of work, so not worried about that. 16:11:37 dbaron: I do think we want a little more of a gap though 16:11:48 September is bad for jdaggett and someone else 16:11:54 glazou can't do August at all 16:11:57 Steve can't do most of August 16:12:11 Steve: I could do just before Labor Day, i.e. late august 16:12:14 howcome can't do late august 16:12:24 alexmog1 has joined #css 16:12:33 Steve: So the advantage of the July dates are they don't seem to have conflict, except for Blue Angels 16:13:00 the blue angels are a troupe of display jet planes 16:13:02 The navy's flying aerobatics team 16:13:18 sylvaing explains the problem with the Blue Angels and the closing of the bridges over the lake 16:13:26 howcome suggests meeting on the East Coast 16:13:30 glazou suggests meeting in Europe 16:13:47 glazou: We're in Santa Clara for TPAC anyway 16:14:20 We could go back to Bilbao -:) 16:14:27 lhnz has joined #css 16:14:38 glazou: It seems August is not practical for many people 16:14:46 glazou: Only possibility is the end of the last week of July 16:14:48 late july-august is best weather in seattle 16:14:59 jdaggett: Are there people with explicit conflicts? 16:15:00 -hober 16:15:19 glazou: I need to be back in Europe on the ? of ? 16:15:34 31st of July 16:15:49 glazou: back to 28-29-30 of July 16:15:52 +hober 16:15:56 ChrisL: That's 2 days of overlap with SVG 16:16:52 discussion of conflicts 16:17:23 -> offline 16:17:34 Topic: CSS Namespaces 16:17:54 ChrisL: Discussed internally this week, and I pointed out how unfair it was when CSS was being penalized wrt this when it applies to everything 16:18:07 ChrisL: So in the end what we decided was it would be good to have a short meeting with a few people 16:18:18 ChrisL: Me, Ishida, one of the chairs, Addison Philips 16:18:27 ChrisL: To discuss the issues 16:18:43 ChrisL: and get i18n to withdraw on that point 16:18:50 fantasai: What about dbaron's suggestion? 16:19:26 ChrisL: .... 16:19:36 (i.e., early normalization... though it's hard to be know that *that* won't have performance implications without trying it) 16:19:39 ChrisL: It's okay to make it the author's responsibility 16:19:53 ChrisL: I'll set up a meeting next week sometime 16:20:07 ChrisL: I think authoring in early normalization is better 16:21:40 fantasai clarifies what dbaron's proposal actually was 16:21:51 glazou: Most stylesheet authors and Web authors don't know what normalization means 16:21:52 (normalizing at parse time) 16:21:55 sylvaing: They shouldn't have to know about it 16:22:11 s/parse/decoding/ , right? 16:22:29 glazou: This already harms FTP clients due to filesystem naming issues 16:22:56 glazou: Even if we add content normalization only we still need to add tests 16:23:03 -danielweck 16:23:09 glazou: There are 2 different late normalizations -- parse time and comparison time 16:23:23 +??P2 16:23:24 sylvaing: Either way the specs are held up ? 16:23:31 Zakim, ??P2 is me 16:23:31 +danielweck; got it 16:23:37 glazou: I'm pushing for another solution. I'm pushing to release CSS Namespaces now 16:23:39 dsinger has joined #css 16:23:48 glazou: And then have a separate spec dealing with normalization 16:24:05 +[Apple] 16:24:05 (back in town, got dropped by SIP client) 16:24:11 sylvaing: It sounds like it's a Web platform issue, no reason to hold up this spec as opposed to others 16:24:18 zakim, [apple] has dsinger 16:24:18 +dsinger; got it 16:24:21 glazou: So Chris, we're waiting for invitation and possible times 16:24:23 -dsinger 16:24:30 sylvaing: Are we waiting for specs or waiting for that meeting? 16:25:04 Topic: CSS Regions 16:25:11 strings vs identifiers 16:25:47 Alex: we had discussed at the F2F that strings were better than identifiers, but wasn't clear how this was the resolution 16:26:12 fantasai: There was no official resolution in the minutes 16:26:38 Alex: We have something similar with counters, and it seems to work okay for counters. Is there a reason to come up with something different for regions or can we use the same solution? 16:26:52 smfr: We use idents in animations, too 16:27:07 glazou: Yes, we usually use idents for this case 16:27:16 glazou: Also I don't like allowing spaces in names 16:27:42 Alex: With strings you'd have to say whether null string is a flow, whether ? is a flow, etc. 16:27:52 - +030187aaee 16:27:57 glazou: Is there any reason why you need a string, Vincent? 16:28:07 Vincent: No, that was just where the discussion landed at the F2F. 16:28:20 plinss was in favor of strings 16:28:29 plinss: We have many cases where we use idents here 16:28:51 howcome has joined #css 16:28:53 plinss: But we've also had cases where we've painted ourselves into a corner. It's safer to have a different syntax for user-named things, and strings are a good way to do that. 16:29:01 + +90700183aakk 16:29:04 fantasai: where have we painted ourselves in a corner before? 16:29:12 - +90700183aakk 16:29:23 plinss: font names 16:29:32 fantasai: Those are not CSS-internal identifiers 16:29:43 plinss: Still have the problem that we can't ever add another keyword to those property names because you'll have conflicts 16:29:59 plinss: If you want to add a keyword, you have to define it now and we're stuck with that set forever 16:30:07 glazou: or you can use a functional notation 16:30:26 plinss: that was proposed, too, but kindof cumbersome 16:30:38 Alex: idents are the easiest to use, ..., and we don't have a really good reason to not use idents 16:30:41 szilles has joined #css 16:30:51 plinss: We explicitly didn't resolve on this at the F2F 16:31:02 plinss: we were just tossing ideas around, so I don't really care one way or the other 16:31:23 plinss: I don't like inconsistency with other properties, but I also don't like the extensibility problem 16:31:34 glazou: Do we need to resolve on this now, or can we add a note to the document and resolve later? 16:31:46 Steve: Make a decision as to how the text should be written now 16:32:07 John: I'd rather make the decision now. 16:32:12 glazou: Ok, straw poll 16:32:19 we can surely reserve names/idents of a specific form for CSS use (i.e. user region names cannot start with 'CSS') 16:32:20 glazou: Two options: 1. String 2. Identifier 16:32:25 Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:32:25 On the phone I see johnjan, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft.a], vhardy, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aa], stearns, jdaggett, [IPcaller], SteveZ, +47.21.65.aaff, dbaron, smfr, kojiishi, bradk, 16:32:28 ... hober, danielweck, [Apple] 16:32:28 [Apple] has dsinger 16:32:29 johnjan has alexmog 16:32:38 JohnJansen: ident 16:32:39 glazou: ident 16:32:42 plinss: strings 16:32:51 Arron: ident 16:32:53 string 16:32:53 Alex: ident 16:32:58 sylvaing: ident 16:33:04 Vincent: abstain 16:33:06 + +25430187aall 16:33:12 Chris: abstain 16:33:18 Stearns: strings 16:33:21 jdaggett: ident 16:33:28 howcome: I'd like to hear what Bert thinks 16:33:58 Steve: don't care 16:34:06 César: strings 16:34:09 dbaron: ident 16:34:13 smfr: ident 16:34:18 Koji: abstain 16:34:29 Brad: abstain 16:34:35 hober: ident 16:34:43 dweck: ident 16:34:51 dsinger: defer to simon 16:34:54 fantasai: ident 16:35:03 I'm sorry, I said 'abstain', not strings. 16:35:04 glazou: I think identifiers clearly win here 16:35:14 11 for ident, 3 for strings 16:35:31 s/César: strings/César: abstain/ 16:35:40 RESOLVED: use idents for flow names 16:36:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0336.html 16:36:21 -jdaggett 16:36:33 Vincent: These were my notes on the meeting, wanted to confirm 16:36:48 Vincent: First item was to have flow-into and flow-from properties, which is different from the current draft 16:37:20 Vincent: Wanted to confirm if I should make that change 16:37:29 fantasai: Why can't we use content property? 16:37:36 Vincent: plinss wanted a separate property 16:38:17 fantasai: If you specify both flow-into and content property, which one wins? 16:39:23 plinss: content property overrides, you can use the contents keyword to get the normal content 16:39:46 fantasai: so flow-into affects calculation of 'normal'? 16:40:01 I'm concerned with how 'normal' is getting overloaded 16:40:02 Alex: You can also use flow-into: none to get normal content 16:40:14 flow-from? 16:40:29 Alex: I like how flow overrides content property, much easier to handle. Otherwise have to look at two properties .. order 16:40:38 fantasai: I'm concerned about the cascade implications 16:41:46 fantasai: What's the benefit of having two properties? I see a lot of reasons to use content and /not/ two properties. I don't see the benefit of a new property. 16:42:47 plinss: I like having separate properties because to me they are separate concepts 16:43:01 glazou: Taking this discussion offline 16:43:34 Vincent: Agreed that content selection was a UI issue, not mentioned in spec 16:44:44 RESOLVED: Content selection is a UI issue, not in css3-regions 16:45:02 Vincent: discussed whether event propagation model should be model, agreement that it should not be changed 16:45:18 RESOLVED: No change to event propagation model due to regions 16:45:31 Vincent: next one was to make seciton on DOM events model informative 16:45:50 Vincent: I think that's a simple one 16:46:09 Vincent: Next one was on CSSOM View 16:46:21 Vincent: Confirmed that the current proposal was good 16:46:30 Vincent: Agreed to add event on changes to regionOverflow and flowRanges 16:46:42 No objections 16:47:11 Vincent: I also had an action item to ... 16:47:19 ACTION Vincent: Regions spec. editors to specify a model for breaking flow content 16:47:19 across areas that accounts for regions, columns and pages. Build on paged 16:47:19 Created ACTION-330 - Regions spec. editors to specify a model for breaking flow content [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-06-22]. 16:47:20 media and propose behavior for nested flows breaks. 16:47:35 Topic: CSS Exclusions 16:47:47 glazou: Going to have a call with Vincent on that on Friday 16:47:58 Vincent: Since Alex will be editor, I'll sync up with him 16:48:05 Topic: CSS3 Images 16:49:06 Topic: CSS3 Ruby 16:49:45 fantasai, you dropped off 16:49:53 -[IPcaller] 16:50:12 yep, calling back 16:50:16 basically, I think we should publish 16:50:20 with those edits I mentioned 16:50:29 +??P18 16:50:35 glazou: please review the DOM ? Events linked from the wiki for next week 16:50:57 We really need to pull the css3-ruby spec from CR, so I was wondering if we could 16:50:57 get a WG resolution to publish an updated WD providing that 16:50:57 1. All of the marked edits are actually folded into the draft instead of marked 16:50:57 as changes. (They're mostly editorial, obviously correct, and distract from 16:50:57 the actual issues.) 16:51:00 2. The 'bopomofo'/'right' value is renamed 'inter-character' per WG resolution 16:51:02 http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2011/03/15/resolutions_152 16:51:05 Then hopefully Richard can find the time to make these edits and push the updates 16:51:27 -bradk 16:52:07 Koji: use styles to make del display:none? 16:52:11 Koji: Can we use display: none to make the old text go away? 16:52:19 fantasai: Why would we do that? We should just update the text. 16:52:36 RESOLVED: Publish update of CSS Ruby with changes mentioned above. 16:53:03 glazou: Tab asked to publish CSS3 Lists, defer to next week 16:53:05 Topic: Charter 16:53:10 -danielweck 16:53:25 ChrisL: CSSWG and SVGWG charters talk about FX charter, but say different things 16:53:29 +??P2 16:53:37 (back on SIP, got dropped) 16:53:44 ChrisL: We should make sure the charters align on the deliverables etc. 16:53:45 Zakim, ??P2 is me 16:53:45 +danielweck; got it 16:54:25 ChrisL: SVGWG draft charter was published, and the SVGWG charter was extended 16:54:36 ChrisL says something about a temporary charter extension 16:55:33 ChrisL: So let's discuss the FX task force stuff soon 16:56:20 Topic: CSS3 Conditional Rules 16:56:25 dbaron: Close to FPWD, but not quite there yet 16:56:33 dbaron: I discussed what it was at the F2F 16:56:40 dbaron resummarizes 16:57:15 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/ 16:57:17 glazou: I've shown your document to a few web authors, and they are really excited 16:57:29 -ChrisL 16:58:21 looks like my line hung up 16:58:25 fantasai: I would like to publish LCWD of CSS3 Writing Modes next week to get wider review, so if anyone has issues they want addressed before LC publication they should report them this week. 16:58:45 -[Microsoft.aa] 16:58:45 ACTION everyone: Review css3-writing-modes and report any issues that should be addressed before LC 16:58:45 Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone 16:58:51 -smfr 16:58:52 -fantasai 16:58:52 -[Apple] 16:58:54 - +25430187aall 16:58:55 -vhardy 16:58:55 -kojiishi 16:58:57 -dbaron 16:58:58 -danielweck 16:59:58 - +47.21.65.aaff 17:00:03 -hober 17:01:18 -glazou 17:01:20 -SteveZ 17:01:23 -plinss 17:01:27 -stearns 17:01:28 -[Microsoft.a] 17:02:00 smfr has left #css 17:06:28 disconnecting the lone participant, johnjan, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 17:06:29 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 17:06:33 Attendees were danielweck, glazou, +1.858.216.aaaa, +1.619.846.aabb, plinss, arronei, hober, alexmog, ChrisL, dsinger, +666182aacc, +1.206.550.aadd, johnjan, stearns, vhardy, 17:06:38 ... jdaggett, +030187aaee, [IPcaller], SteveZ, +47.21.65.aaff, +1.650.618.aagg, dbaron, +1.650.275.aahh, +1.408.636.aaii, smfr, +1.650.275.aajj, kojiishi, bradk, +90700183aakk, 17:06:41 ... +25430187aall, fantasai 17:08:33 arronei has joined #css 17:32:48 szilles has joined #css 17:38:42 konaya has joined #css 17:47:22 Ms2ger has joined #css 18:31:46 dbaron has joined #css 19:10:45 Zakim has left #css 19:22:13 szilles has joined #css 20:29:44 szilles has joined #css 21:49:44 szilles has joined #css 23:02:14 szilles has joined #css 23:15:06 konaya has joined #css 23:28:52 myakura has joined #css 23:41:46 konaya has joined #css 23:49:16 konaya has joined #css 23:55:17 konaya has joined #css