13:59:59 RRSAgent has joined #pf 13:59:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-pf-irc 14:00:01 RRSAgent, make logs member 14:00:03 Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 14:00:04 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 60 minutes 14:00:04 Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 14:00:04 Date: 14 June 2011 14:00:22 meeting: PF Daylong Teleconference on ARIA UAIG 14:00:56 richardschwerdtfe has joined #pf 14:01:30 zakim, this is 92473 14:01:36 Andi has joined #pf 14:01:47 ok, MichaelC; that matches Team_(pf)14:00Z 14:01:56 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:02:08 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger 14:02:10 On the phone I see ??P19, Andi_Snow_Weaver, ??P25, Rich_Schwerdtfeger 14:02:16 zakim, ??P19 is Janina_Sajka 14:02:22 zakim, ??P25 is Michael_Cooper 14:02:32 +Janina_Sajka; got it 14:02:34 davidb has joined #pf 14:02:35 +Michael_Cooper; got it 14:02:44 zakim, what is the code? 14:03:10 the conference code is 92473 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ShaneM 14:03:31 clown has joined #pf 14:03:51 +[Microsoft] 14:03:54 +[Mozilla] 14:04:01 Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter 14:04:06 zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia_Shelly 14:04:20 +David_Bolter; got it 14:04:28 +Cynthia_Shelly; got it 14:04:29 +??P37 14:04:29 cyns has joined #pf 14:04:41 zakim ??P37 is Joseph_Scheuhammer 14:04:42 zakim, ??P37 is Joseph_Scheuhammer 14:04:57 zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 14:04:59 +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 14:05:06 +??P38 14:05:11 zakim, P38 is ShaneM 14:05:15 ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 14:05:28 zakim, who's here? 14:05:29 zakim, ??P38 is ShaneM 14:05:29 sorry, ShaneM, I do not recognize a party named 'P38' 14:05:37 On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Joseph_Scheuhammer, ??P38 14:05:42 +ShaneM; got it 14:05:49 On IRC I see cyns, clown, davidb, Andi, richardschwerdtfe, RRSAgent, MichaelC, ShaneM, janina, Zakim, trackbot 14:07:44 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/ 14:09:22 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/meetings/f2fmay11 Previous spec review walk-through 14:10:21 scribe: janina 14:10:27 scribe: janina 14:11:19 mc: Suggest walking the doc top to bottom, looking particularly for testable statements. 14:11:52 mc: Need also to look for discrepencies--confusing statements, etc. 14:12:22 as: Cynthia came up with a list of specifics for us to look at. 14:12:33 as: I got most editorial items in. 14:13:20 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/Overview.html 14:13:23 mc: Starting with the intro section ... 14:13:40 mc: Note it's informative, but are there thoughts? 14:13:56 mc: Discusses how ARIA fits in ... ... 14:14:40 mc: Moving on to A11y APIs, mainly an explanation of what this is 14:14:59 cs: Might be useful to cross-link into the official specs 14:15:43 as: Do we want to say we're willing to incorporate other APIs, if contributed? 14:16:02 cs: This is a normative doc ... 14:16:14 as: Perhaps an appendix after publication? 14:16:26 mc: Several possible approaches for that. 14:16:49 mc: "These APIs are in common use at time of publication, willing to provide additional documentation ' 14:17:06 s/'/"/ 14:17:24 rs: Not aiming at mobile APIs, correct? 14:17:37 mc: Not yet, but that's a likely addition. 14:18:21 mc: Key may be to get agreement that without changing the finished doc, no patent implication by adding additional API documentation 14:18:30 mc: Moving to Sec 2, DOM tree 14:18:42 cs: Diag would be helpful here 14:18:58 mc: Who could do that? 14:19:14 rs: One that maps DOM node to a11y object 14:19:21 cs: Good starting point. 14:19:46 action: Cynthia to create a diagram to support 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree 14:19:47 Created ACTION-842 - Create a diagram to support 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2011-06-21]. 14:20:22 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/accessibleelement.png 14:21:29 mc: Moving to Sec 2 Normative UA Reqs 14:21:43 mc: And Sec 3 Important Terms 14:22:25 as: A few to discuss, probably a copy edit as well 14:23:26 as: Accessible Name -- "Who I Am;" role = "what am i" 14:24:06 rs: Notes to include UI Automation in A11y APIs above 14:24:45 as: Take out Java? 14:24:49 [agreement] 14:26:11 rs: Should be AT-SPI 14:26:19 as: Elsewhere we say ATK/AT-SPI 14:26:23 rs: Good 14:26:55 rs: Need to ask James C what to call Mac API 14:27:16 rs: Under Accessible Object, do we add visible? 14:27:23 rs: Let's say User Interface Object 14:28:07 rs: A user interface object whose basic accessibility is exposed to AT by exposing an accessibility API 14:28:29 cs: Think the existing is OK, don't think we need to get too scientific right here 14:29:26 as: Need a URI for UIA invoke pattern 14:30:29 [pausing to consider what to take up when JC joins call] 14:31:33 mc: Activation behavior? More? 14:31:35 Andi has joined #pf 14:31:58 how's this 14:31:59 Both Microsoft Active Accessibility and UI Automation expose the UI object model as a hierarchical tree, rooted at the desktop. Microsoft Active Accessibility represents individual UI elements as accessible objects, and UI Automation represents them as automation elements. 14:32:14 mc: Next AT ... Notes open issue re whether AT should be removed from general definition of User Agent. Now working this question in WAI-CG. 14:32:41 rs: We had to separate previously, as it significantly complicates 14:33:28 [Notes email with UAWG on this, where they had previously removed, but discussion still in progress] 14:33:35 as: Also in ARIA spec? 14:33:53 cs: OK with encompassing both, but need separate discussion 14:34:21 cs: If we don't have rules for AT, they have no requirements on them. 14:34:34 as: But not this doc, this doc is not specific to AT. 14:34:46 as: Confirmed this definition is in ARIA spec. 14:34:51 cs: Yes, this doc is for browsers. 14:35:37 mc: Checking tracker, noting no issues logged on this 14:35:54 mc: Will log an issue 14:36:38 issue: Separation of definition of User Agent vs Assistive Technology, sometimes UA means both but many requirements targeted just to one 14:36:40 [agreement] 14:37:00 mc: Tie to spec, or UAIG? 14:38:15 mc: issue-453 tagged to spec 14:38:41 mc: Else for AT definitions? 14:38:45 mc: Now attribs 14:38:54 mc:Class .. 14:38:57 as: Notes typo 14:39:19 Created ISSUE-453 - Separation of definition of User Agent vs Assistive Technology, sometimes UA means both but many requirements targeted just to one ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/453/edit . 14:40:37 mc: Event 14:40:40 mc: Hidden 14:41:14 clown: Q, notes note discrepency with text 14:41:28 mc: only considered from AT perspective? Is that the meaning? 14:42:00 cs: Yes, ARIA-hidden and display=none differences are somewhat confusing 14:42:13 cs: When does one need both 14:42:22 cs: Certainly not both at all times 14:42:34 as: Notes spec uses the same definition 14:43:03 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#aria-hidden 14:43:14 zakim, who is making noise? 14:43:26 Andi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (33%), Rich_Schwerdtfeger (4%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (9%) 14:44:53 mc: If browsers not exposing display=none to A11y API, does this guide say anything about that? Create an issue to explore this? 14:45:45 rs: HTML 5 has an element that does the same thing. 14:45:56 cs: All three seems unnecessary 14:46:26 rs: It's for DOM based ATs 14:47:24 cs: At least one AT ignores display=none in the belief that authors misuse it 14:47:47 rs: At some point we could deprecate aria-hidden 14:47:52 clown: but might use with svg 14:48:52 cs: Need to clarify whether this is for this doc, or authoring doc 14:49:53 [discussion] 14:50:27 mc: Does the UA need to do something? Sop, should be in UAIG, but perhaps also tweak to spec and author doc 14:50:58 Here's another definition: An accessible object is any UI element that implements the IAccessible interface. To interact with the accessible object, an Active Accessibility client needs only this IAccessible object. 14:51:20 we could change that to "An accessible object is any UI element that implements an accessibility API " 14:53:14 issue: Does aria-hidden have to be set on any non-displayed element, or does e.g., CSS display:none, visibility:hidden, or HTML hidden also cause the same behavior in the user agent? If so, UAIG should specify which should happen, and spec may need clarification. 14:53:15 Created ISSUE-454 - Does aria-hidden have to be set on any non-displayed element, or does e.g., CSS display:none, visibility:hidden, or HTML hidden also cause the same behavior in the user agent? If so, UAIG should specify which should happen, and spec may need clarification. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/454/edit . 14:53:26 accessible object defintion is from http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971310.aspx#actvaccess_topic2 14:55:17 as: Looking for someone to help untangle this 14:56:05 mc: Moving on ... 14:56:19 as: Live regions -- Need editorial reading on how to use AJAX 14:56:44 cs: A W3C style guide on this? 14:56:58 mc: AJAX not in it, we need to try and get it added 14:57:40 clown: Notes typo in third sentence 14:57:44 as: Already flagged 14:58:45 action: cooper to raise question of AJAX vs Ajax as W3C style decision and circle back when decision made 14:58:45 Created ACTION-843 - Raise question of AJAX vs Ajax as W3C style decision and circle back when decision made [on Michael Cooper - due 2011-06-21]. 14:59:58 mc: Moving on ... 15:00:42 cs: Normative -- Doesn't seem wrong, but doesn't seem to say very much 15:01:23 action: cynthia to clarify definition of "managed state" 15:01:23 Created ACTION-844 - Clarify definition of "managed state" [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2011-06-21]. 15:01:41 s/Normative/Managed State/ 15:03:15 as: Object, seems to need work 15:03:36 mc: Is redundant 15:04:29 as: DOM element is discussed 15:04:49 mc: We wanted definition to distinguish from dom object, or object in programming lang 15:06:27 mc: Believe we mean something closer to a widget than an object 15:06:30 cs: We do? 15:06:47 mc: We mean conceptual types of object, not lang classes 15:07:25 mc: This has history from when ARIA was percieved as RDF model 15:07:54 s/percieved/perceived/ 15:08:18 clown: so a landmark is an object? 15:08:20 mc: yes 15:08:44 rs: You want to know it's in the hierarchy as it provides a tontainer 15:09:09 clown: Unit of perception? 15:09:16 from webopedia "Generally, any item that can be individually selected and manipulated. This can include shapes and pictures that appear on a display screen as well as less tangible software entities. In object-oriented programming, for example, an object is a self-contained entity that consists of both data and procedures to manipulate the data. " 15:09:35 "In the domain of object-oriented programming an object is usually taken to mean an ephemeral compilation of attributes (object elements) and behaviors (methods or subroutines) encapsulating an entity" 15:10:32 mc: We're getting into philosophical weeds 15:11:25 issue: We don't know what the definition of "object" means 15:11:29 Created ISSUE-455 - We don't know what the definition of "object" means ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/455/edit . 15:14:02 In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science, an object is any entity that can be manipulated by the commands of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language, such as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(computer_science), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_(computer_science), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subroutine, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_structure. (With the later introduction of 15:14:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming the same word, "object", refers to a particular instance of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_(computer_science)) 15:14:42 rs: manipulable instantiation of an element 15:15:46 Issue-455: An accessible object is any UI element that implements an accessibility API. Can we define object as "UI element"? 15:15:46 ISSUE-455 We don't know what the definition of "object" means notes added 15:16:54 jcraig has joined #pf 15:17:00 RE Issue-455 -- Webster] 15:17:00 2. Anything which is set, or which may be regarded as set, 15:17:00 before the mind so as to be apprehended or known; that of 15:17:00 which the mind by any of its activities takes cognizance, 15:17:00 whether a thing external in space or a conception formed 15:17:01 by the mind itself; as, an object of knowledge, wonder, 15:17:57 fear, thought, study, etc./me Hi, James. We're on Zakim 92473# -- the usual PF channel 15:18:45 +jcraig 15:21:44 [JC has joined] 15:22:01 [we go to specific questions we wnated to talk with jc about] 15:22:25 zakim, who is making noise? 15:22:36 Andi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jcraig (39%), Andi_Snow_Weaver (4%), Michael_Cooper (29%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (4%) 15:23:17 as: Sec 5.4 -- case? 15:23:40 mc: Now ARIA tokens, we can say about case 15:23:44 mc: so matches host lang 15:23:57 [agreement] 15:24:02 link? 15:24:51 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_nd_name 15:25:34 -jcraig 15:28:58 as: Notes this note only in UAIG 15:29:20 scribe: Joseph 15:29:29 scribeNick: clown 15:30:14 CS: compute the text alternative, and it comes up empty 15:30:37 CS: look for various label attributes (e.g., aria-label, title) 15:30:47 CS: it implies that these attributes were empty too. 15:31:01 CS: reading it again, I understand what it is trying to say. 15:31:15 MC: we don't need to worry about this anymore and move on. 15:31:19 CS: yes. 15:31:47 MC: any issues under the description computation? 15:32:02 ASW: text alt, bullet 2. 15:32:21 +jcraig 15:32:35 ASW: 2A, first unnumbered bullet. 15:33:18 ASW: in the middle, it says, "However, the element's aria-labelledby attribute can reference the element's own IDREF in order to concatentate a string provided by the element's aria-label attribute or another feature lower in this preference list." 15:33:37 ASW: cynthia's comment: not sure why that is needed. 15:33:54 JC: discussion a while back to change the precedence of aria-label and aria-labelledby. 15:34:05 JC: from a specific public comment. need to look it up. 15:34:38 CS: why do we need to point to ourself? 15:34:50 JC: I'll paste in an example. 15:35:51 15:36:11

Item 1

15:36:12 MC: I found the issue. ISSUE-344 15:36:16 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/334 ISSUE-334: Inconsistency between spec and implementation guide 15:36:40 JC: for the example, the label would be "me Item 1". 15:36:48 no 15:36:58 "Delete item 1" 15:36:59 s/me Item 1/Delete Item 1/ 15:37:27 ASW: can we put this example in? 15:37:35 JC: I think there is a better one in the issue. 15:37:49 s/ASW: can we put this example in?/CS: can we put this example in?/ 15:38:38 JC: the idea is can repeat the "Delete" part for concatenating with other referenced text. 15:38:54 Item 1 [Edit] [Delete] 15:38:58 Item 2 [Edit] [Delete] 15:39:01 etc 15:39:28 MC: looking for the public comment for any example there. 15:39:29 Where the Delete and Edit buttons included the visible string label of the item 15:41:10 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=194 aria-label & aria-labelledby mutually exclusive? 15:41:15 CS: I'm fine with that if we can put in an example. 15:43:04 combined with, not versus 15:43:23 action: jcraig to create example for text alternatives computation 2.A first bullet 15:43:23 Created ACTION-845 - Create example for text alternatives computation 2.A first bullet [on James Craig - due 2011-06-21]. 15:43:42 ASW: not changing the text, just adding an example? 15:43:45 MC: yes. 15:44:16 ASW: next bullet: "if this computation is already occurring as the result of a recursive text alternative computation and the current element is an embedded control as defined in rule 2B, ignore the aria-label attribute and skip directly to rule 2B." 15:44:28 ASW: cynthia's quesion is why ignore? 15:45:46 JC: gives an example. 15:46:04 CS: so, have an example would make things clearer. 15:46:16 JC: I think that example is in the spec. 15:46:29 ASW: should I copy those examples into the UIAG? 15:46:37 CS: or, link to them. 15:46:44 RS: linking might be easier 15:46:58 RS: don't have to maintain two copies. 15:47:05 ASW: could do that for the whole section. 15:47:09 RS: yes, why not? 15:47:55 spec example #2 is for the 2B embedded form controls: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#tac_example2 15:47:58 ASW: 2B, third bullet. "If the embedded control is a select or combobox, use the chosen option." 15:48:14 ASW: cynthia's question: what about aria-labelledby? 15:48:50 ASW: this section says you include the embedded option. it doesn't say you don't use aria-label no aria-labelledby. 15:49:11 JC: It does say to skip the aria-label for embedded controls. But not aria-labelledby. 15:50:34 JC: I can type in another example. 15:51:04 me too 15:53:04 Friend referral 15:53:15 CS: should we just record an issue and move on? 15:53:55 So if you landed on the radio button, you'd hear "Friend referral John Smith, radio button 2 of 2" 15:54:00 RS: what are we ignoring here? 15:54:26 but if you landed on the text field, you'd hear "Name of friend, John Smith, " 15:55:08 JC: think of this as a list of "how did you hear about us?" 15:55:39 JC: with a radio button named "Friend referral", with a text field for you to fill in. 15:56:04 JC: so the aria-label is redundant with the ? 15:56:20 ASW: is this example in the spec? 15:56:42 JC: we can use this example, but there is an example in the spec. see the link I put in irc earlier. 15:56:53 JS: that's a very similar example. 15:58:12 s/JS: that's a very similar example./JC: that's a very similar example./ 15:58:51 ASW: under 2d: should this still be the last resort in HTML5? 15:59:10 CS: I don't know if we can answer this now, but we should keep an issue open. 15:59:29 JC: the text alt here is not quite the same as that in the spec. 15:59:49 s/the text alt here is not quite/the text alt computation here is not quite/ 16:00:10 JC: Michael, do you have an action for common source? 16:00:19 MC: yes 16:00:44 ASW: bullet 3: should add a bullet for before and after, and add a bullet for CSS. 16:01:14 ASW: we have rules for replacing, but not for adding text. 16:01:41 JC: we could say something about append/prepends for before and after? 16:02:00 CS: for before and after, and list rendering. 16:02:15 JS: what means list rendering? 16:02:37 CS: the numbers in an ordered list, or changing the numbering (different start points). 16:02:39 that was list numbering 16:03:13 JC: is this the covered by ? 16:03:35 CS: so, when new text is added and when numbers are added. 16:03:57 CS: when numbered styles are added. 16:04:12 JC: summarizes the changes. 16:04:35 change "When new text replaces old" to "When new text is added" 16:04:42 CS: can we add list styles without it being a normative change? It is important to know what number of item you are on. 16:05:04 JC: we might just say the content property. 16:05:19 CS: can someone take an action to go figure that out? 16:05:29 :before { content: 'foo'; } 16:08:22 CS, ASW, JC: discussion of css styles for list "bullets". 16:08:25 + +1.510.864.aaaa 16:08:41 jamesn has joined #pf 16:08:48 JC: I thought you were describing that you could redefine the start. 16:08:57 zakim, aaaa is James_Nurthen 16:08:57 +James_Nurthen; got it 16:08:59 CS: whether it's a letter or number is important too. 16:09:29 JC: I don't think that's well supported by all browsers. 16:09:45 Action should reference http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-content/ 16:09:45 Sorry, couldn't find user - should 16:09:46 MC: James N, we a reviewing the text alternative computation. 16:09:59 action: jcraig to clarify how CSS list numbering fits into text alternative computation in bullet 3 16:09:59 Created ACTION-846 - Clarify how CSS list numbering fits into text alternative computation in bullet 3 [on James Craig - due 2011-06-21]. 16:10:06 s/we a reviewing the/we are reviewing the/ 16:10:39 ASW: that's all for the name calculation. 16:10:43 woot 16:10:49 ASW: wanted also ask jame about live regions. 16:10:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_events_visibility 16:11:04 JC: are you talking about the notifications I sent to you? 16:11:29 ASW: the other a11y APIs don't have a special event. 16:11:55 JC: you think this should go into another table. 16:12:37 ASW: if you look at 5.8.2, I added to the table -- if it's in alive region, the event is "ax live regions changed". 16:12:57 JC: it will also have another ax event if the text node is going away completely. 16:13:30 JC: it's only if it's removed completely that you get the other event. 16:13:34 JC: this is fine. 16:13:45 JC: but let me think about it. 16:14:00 ASW: could you review it, and let us know if it's okay. 16:14:44 ASW: after the second one (when a subtree is hidden), towards the end, it talks about the different APIs. 16:14:57 ASW: I added the mac event there. 16:15:21 JC: I'm not sure about the very last one (required)> 16:15:39 JC: yeah, it sounds good, but I'll look it over. 16:15:57 ASW: that's all of the questions we needed James C's input. 16:16:06 CS: do you have any comments, James? 16:16:24 JC: not right now. I reviewed a while back, and sent in comments. 16:16:32 ASW: the live region was the last one from that set. 16:16:41 JC: I'll give it one more review. 16:16:49 MC: let's go back to the definitions. 16:17:17 JS: do we have a name for the the Mac a11y API? 16:17:22 JC: give the names. 16:17:30 ASW: we have it right. 16:17:42 CS: is the api on iOS the same? 16:17:53 JC: it's called UI accessibility. 16:18:00 long name: Mac OS X Accessibility Protocol 16:18:08 short name: AX API 16:18:19 iOS: UIAccessibility 16:18:40 s/called UI accessibility./called UIAccessibility./ 16:18:43 -jcraig 16:19:12 MC: ontology. might be a generator error. doesn't occur in the spec. 16:19:19 MC: next: owned element. 16:19:42 MC: owning element. 16:19:47 jcraig has left #pf 16:20:02 MC: perceivable 16:20:05 MC: property 16:20:18 MC: relationship 16:20:30 MC: do we need that? it's an rdf-ish thing. 16:20:35 RS: why do you think that? 16:20:41 MC: let me think -- okay. 16:21:05 ASW: is 'articulable" a word? 16:24:03 -David_Bolter 16:24:33 ASW: let's just drop "articulable" --" two distinct things" 16:24:38 MC: let's do that. 16:24:41 MC: role. 16:24:53 MC: Root WAI-ARIA node 16:25:02 ASW: captilaize first word. 16:25:36 SM: that's not right. In html it's the document. 16:25:42 SM: make sure it's clear. 16:26:00 MC: maybe: "the element containing non meta-data element". 16:26:11 MC: which, in html, is the body or frameset. 16:26:17 Websters says first known use of ARTICULABLE was in 1833 16:26:27 MC: would a framset have aria on it? 16:26:28 "The element containing non-metadata content. In HTML the body or frameset element. In other languages this may be the document element." 16:26:34 JN: not normally, but it could. 16:26:52 Andi has joined #pf 16:26:52 MC: moving on, "semantics" 16:27:03 MC: State 16:27:28 JS: where is markup exposed to APIs? 16:27:40 JS: is that part of semantics? or elsewhere? 16:28:01 MC: not in semantics, but a clarification under describedby. 16:28:15 ASW: are you alluding to where describedby points to markup? 16:28:18 JS: yes. 16:28:33 MC: Sub-document. 16:29:00 ASW: should an iframe be markup up as code? 16:29:06 MC: probably 16:29:16 MC: understandable 16:29:24 zakim, who is making noise? 16:29:36 Andi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (18%), Rich_Schwerdtfeger (5%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (15%) 16:29:39 MC: User Agent. already created an issue -- anything further? 16:29:43 MC: valid id 16:30:22 RS: not need for "relationship" here. 16:31:03 ASW: where you do specify a relationship with an id, then the def'n applies. 16:31:17 RS: it's an ID that exist on an element on a document. 16:31:34 RS: does "valid" mean if you have the same ID, does that work? 16:31:46 MC: I think we should change it to ID reference. 16:32:19 Valid IDREF: A reference to a target element in the same document with a matching ID. 16:32:20 RS: what happens if you have more than one element with the same ID. 16:32:22 ? 16:32:34 RS: would that be "valid"? 16:32:38 ASW: author error. 16:32:53 RS: we look for duplicate id's for failure testing. 16:33:08 MC: some UAs will choose the first one, some will chose the last one. 16:33:14 JN: its' a wcag error as well. 16:33:29 MC: not sure that we need to worry about that here. 16:33:45 s/Valid IDREF: A reference to a target element in the same document with a matching ID./Valid IDREF: A reference to a target element in the same document that has a matching ID./ 16:33:54 RS: that's sounds reasonable, Andi. 16:34:17 MC: do we need an issue to address multiple non-unique ids? 16:34:45