15:18:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
15:18:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-irc
15:18:19 <judy> zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)
15:18:19 <Zakim> ok, judy; I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:18:19 <judy> meeting: HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference
15:18:19 <judy> chair:	Judy_Brewer
15:18:19 <judy> scribe: Janina_Sajka
15:18:45 <judy> agenda+ Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines
15:18:45 <judy> agenda+ Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call
15:18:45 <judy> agenda+ Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's proposal
15:18:45 <judy> agenda+ Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer example
15:18:46 <judy> agenda+ Need someone else to take on table summary
15:18:47 <judy> agenda+ Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt; 
15:18:51 <judy> agenda+ Other business?
15:18:53 <judy> agenda+ Confirm actions, timelines, next meetings; identify next scribe; adjourn.
15:30:48 <Zakim> WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has now started
15:30:56 <Zakim> +Judy
15:31:08 <Zakim> + +1.650.468.aaaa
15:31:11 <Zakim> -Judy
15:31:12 <Zakim> +Judy
15:33:01 <JF> JF has joined #text
15:33:18 <janina> janina has joined #text
15:33:19 <Zakim> +??P0
15:33:28 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #text
15:33:39 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is Janina
15:33:39 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:33:43 <janina> scribe: janina
15:34:35 <janina> JF: Still owes meta generator text
15:36:40 <Zakim> +??P2
15:37:10 <judy> zakim, take up item 1
15:37:10 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines" taken up [from judy]
15:37:14 <gfreed> gfreed has joined #text
15:37:59 <judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
15:38:09 <Zakim> + +1.617.300.aabb - is perhaps WGBH?
15:38:34 <judy> zakim, +1.617.300 is Geoff_Freed
15:38:34 <Zakim> sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300'
15:38:52 <JF> zakim, aabb is geoff_freed
15:38:52 <Zakim> sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:39:06 <MichaelC> zakim, wgbh is Geoff_Freed
15:39:06 <Zakim> +Geoff_Freed; got it
15:39:21 <JF> zakim, +1.617.300.aabb is geoff_freed
15:39:21 <Zakim> sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300.aabb'
15:40:13 <janina> jb: Looking for spec review assignees on image element
15:43:41 <richardschwerdtfe> ha ha
15:43:50 <richardschwerdtfe> :-)
15:43:52 <richardschwerdtfe> calling in 
15:44:58 <judy> action: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable)
15:45:32 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:47:26 <judy> action: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element
15:48:51 <judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
15:51:05 <judy> action: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering, editing)
15:51:21 <judy> zakim, take up item 2
15:51:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call" taken up [from judy]
15:52:20 <judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0162.html
15:53:49 <judy> action: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines
15:54:08 <judy> zakim, take up item 3
15:54:08 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's
15:54:11 <Zakim> ... proposal" taken up [from judy]
15:54:56 <janina> jf: No progress yet ...
15:55:32 <janina> jb: Notes request for alternate proposals issued May 25, and expecting Jonas proposal may be coming soon
15:55:49 <janina> jjb: Reviewing our concern?
15:56:06 <janina> jf: That ARIA approach may be insufficient at this time
15:56:39 <janina> jf: Backward compatibility, ability to consume/not on demand, and support in AT
15:58:17 <judy> action: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above
16:00:05 <judy> js: the question here is the things that we would expect that Jason's approach could _not_ handle; propose to raise those concerns now
16:00:29 <judy> ...would lead to a frustrating user experience
16:00:34 <JF> s/Jason/Jonas
16:01:12 <judy> agenda?
16:01:21 <judy> zakim, close item 1
16:01:37 <judy> zakim, close item 2
16:01:43 <Zakim> agendum 1, Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines, closed
16:01:45 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:01:47 <Zakim> 2. Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call [from judy]
16:01:48 <judy> zakim, take up next item
16:01:51 <Zakim> agendum 2, Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call, closed
16:01:54 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:01:57 <Zakim> 3. Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's proposal
16:02:01 <Zakim> ... [from judy]
16:02:03 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer
16:02:08 <Zakim> ... example" taken up [from judy]
16:02:15 <judy> zakim, take up next item
16:02:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, judy
16:02:23 <judy> zakim, close item 3
16:02:23 <Zakim> agendum 3, Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's
16:02:26 <Zakim> ... proposal, closed
16:02:26 <judy> zakim, take up next item
16:02:27 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:02:29 <Zakim> 4. Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer example [from
16:02:32 <Zakim> ... judy]
16:02:32 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, judy
16:04:05 <janina> jb: We seem to agree that there are circumstances where fig-caption is a perfectly acceptable fallback for alt
16:04:26 <janina> jb: However, the opposite is also true--common examples where it's a completely inappropriate fallback for alt
16:05:05 <janina> jb: Only huristic we can concieve to auto-distinguish would be length. Is there something else?
16:06:58 <janina> jb: janina: test for length, and disallow longer than X
16:07:06 <judy> s/huristic/heuristic/
16:07:18 <janina> jf: concern that this is authoring issue, anyone using the epub will take more care
16:07:30 <janina> q+
16:08:04 <janina> jf: We're forcing conformance checker to become an WCAG conformance checker
16:08:18 <judy> q+
16:08:32 <gfreed> q+
16:08:49 <JF> q+
16:09:09 <janina> ack janina
16:09:16 <janina> ack ju
16:10:15 <janina> jf: Not wanting to get into discussion of who suggested fic-caption as fallback, seems inappropriate expectations of huristics
16:10:42 <janina> jf: Length is simple, but crude, and probably insufficient on its own
16:11:52 <judy> s/jf/jb/
16:11:57 <janina> gf: Agrees with jf that length is not best way to decide, but also that we need to take advantage of changes in tech
16:11:58 <judy> s/jf/jb/
16:12:21 <janina> gf: This shouldn't be the only way to decide whether or not the fig-caption is appropriate
16:12:44 <janina> jb: So a flag for excessive length fig-caption
16:12:53 <janina> q+
16:13:16 <janina> jf: How to get this into authoring tool requirements?
16:14:25 <judy> s/huristic/heuristic/
16:14:27 <janina> jf: Worried about introducing huristics into this area
16:14:31 <judy> s/huristic/heuristic/
16:15:45 <janina> ack jan
16:15:58 <judy> ack g
16:15:59 <janina> ack geo
16:16:02 <judy> ack j
16:16:49 <janina> jb: A warning on conformance meet the concern?
16:16:52 <janina> gf: Yes for me
16:16:58 <JF> q+
16:17:15 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
16:17:44 <janina> jf: Perhaps a discussion with Mike and perhaps Henry to write this up appropriately?
16:18:27 <judy> john: for instance... *IF* alt=null *AND* fig-caption = >200 chars *THEN* throw flag
16:18:34 <janina> rs: Do we also want compliance tools to do this?
16:18:39 <janina> jb: Validator?
16:18:52 <janina> rs: No, because no longer reliable as most content is generated
16:19:26 <janina> rs: It's a WCAG compliance failure, and may be more valuable that way
16:19:38 <janina> jb: On that level perhaps we should say even more
16:21:33 <judy> js: the problem on the wcag level is still -- where's your alt? 
16:23:32 <judy> jf: ok, picture jf and rs sitting on the beach in the carribean; is that code non-conforming?
16:24:42 <janina> jb: Doesn't this also break backwards compatibility?
16:24:46 <janina> jf: A different story
16:24:54 <janina> jb: But still think it's a relevant case
16:25:12 <janina> jb: We want html5 to work whether or not people are fully upgraded
16:26:16 <janina> jf: How is fig-caption reported to apis in older tech?
16:26:22 <janina> jb: Can we figure this out?
16:26:26 <janina> rs: Probably to a div
16:27:21 <janina> jf: We won't lose the text, just perhaps the programatic association
16:27:29 <judy> agenda?
16:30:13 <janina> jb: Found high percentage of examples where fig-caption text I saw looked like good alt text
16:30:29 <JF> q+
16:30:53 <janina> js: Why shouldn't the author tool populate both fig-caption and alt with that text
16:31:40 <janina> jb: But other times very inappropriate
16:32:40 <janina> jf: Concerned about populating because people will hear it twice
16:33:13 <JF> ack j
16:33:14 <janina> ack r
16:33:54 <judy> s/looked like good alt text/looked like good alt text, except for certain situations
16:35:18 <janina> jb: Suggest we think more about this--especially whether implementation approach may help.
16:35:57 <JF> +1
16:36:01 <janina> jb: Any objections 
16:36:12 <judy> zakim, take up next
16:36:12 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Need someone else to take on table summary" taken up [from judy]
16:36:39 <richardschwerdtfe> ok
16:36:51 <janina> jb: Concerned about the reopen timeline on table summary
16:40:12 <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html
16:40:26 <janina> jb: Can we reassign table summary since Gregory is unavailable these days?
16:40:57 <janina> jf: Notes two bugs escalated to tracker issues -- but not a new issue, I guess
16:41:34 <judy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7633
16:41:55 <JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html
16:42:13 <judy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7539
16:42:26 <janina> The latter is more recent
16:43:49 <judy> action: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary
16:43:55 <judy> zakim, take up next
16:43:55 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;" taken up [from judy]
16:44:18 <judy> agenda?
16:44:24 <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html
16:44:46 <janina> jf: Leif has submitted a cp
16:44:47 <JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0480.html
16:45:19 <janina> jf: Leif labeled is a 'first' edit, but he's on target
16:45:37 <janina> jf: I intend to clean up the English and bring it back here
16:47:38 <judy> minutes from last time: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/06-text-minutes.html
16:49:19 <janina> rs: So the question is what's the error handling?
16:49:42 <janina> rs: So, shouldn't alt='foo' overide aria-presentation?
16:50:10 <janina> rs: So, no longer presenation, but it should be flagged
16:51:58 <Zakim> -Geoff_Freed
16:52:35 <JF> q+
16:53:42 <janina> jb: Looking for something concrete that we can verify on this? Do we agree on what to do?
16:54:46 <judy> action: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation
16:55:12 <judy> agenda?
16:55:25 <judy> zakim, close item 6
16:55:26 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, judy
16:56:03 <janina> scribe for june 20 is Rich
16:56:05 <JF> ack jf
16:56:17 <janina> Janina will chair June 20
16:56:36 <judy> zakim, take up next item
16:56:36 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Other business?" taken up [from judy]
16:56:47 <judy> next scribe is rich
16:56:55 <judy> next chair is janina 
16:56:56 <janina> zakim, bye
16:56:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Judy, +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, +1.617.300.aabb, Geoff_Freed, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:56:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #text
16:56:58 <judy> thanks all!
16:57:02 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:57:06 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html janina
17:01:41 <janina> janina has left #text
17:06:35 <MichaelC> MichaelC has left #text