IRC log of text on 2011-06-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:18:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #text
15:18:18 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-irc
15:18:19 [judy]
zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)
15:18:19 [Zakim]
ok, judy; I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:18:19 [judy]
meeting: HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference
15:18:19 [judy]
chair:Judy_Brewer
15:18:19 [judy]
scribe: Janina_Sajka
15:18:45 [judy]
agenda+ Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines
15:18:45 [judy]
agenda+ Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call
15:18:45 [judy]
agenda+ Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's proposal
15:18:45 [judy]
agenda+ Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer example
15:18:46 [judy]
agenda+ Need someone else to take on table summary
15:18:47 [judy]
agenda+ Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;
15:18:51 [judy]
agenda+ Other business?
15:18:53 [judy]
agenda+ Confirm actions, timelines, next meetings; identify next scribe; adjourn.
15:30:48 [Zakim]
WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has now started
15:30:56 [Zakim]
+Judy
15:31:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.468.aaaa
15:31:11 [Zakim]
-Judy
15:31:12 [Zakim]
+Judy
15:33:01 [JF]
JF has joined #text
15:33:18 [janina]
janina has joined #text
15:33:19 [Zakim]
+??P0
15:33:28 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has joined #text
15:33:39 [janina]
zakim, ??P0 is Janina
15:33:39 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
15:33:43 [janina]
scribe: janina
15:34:35 [janina]
JF: Still owes meta generator text
15:36:40 [Zakim]
+??P2
15:37:10 [judy]
zakim, take up item 1
15:37:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines" taken up [from judy]
15:37:14 [gfreed]
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15:37:59 [judy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
15:38:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.300.aabb - is perhaps WGBH?
15:38:34 [judy]
zakim, +1.617.300 is Geoff_Freed
15:38:34 [Zakim]
sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300'
15:38:52 [JF]
zakim, aabb is geoff_freed
15:38:52 [Zakim]
sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:39:06 [MichaelC]
zakim, wgbh is Geoff_Freed
15:39:06 [Zakim]
+Geoff_Freed; got it
15:39:21 [JF]
zakim, +1.617.300.aabb is geoff_freed
15:39:21 [Zakim]
sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300.aabb'
15:40:13 [janina]
jb: Looking for spec review assignees on image element
15:43:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
ha ha
15:43:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
:-)
15:43:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
calling in
15:44:58 [judy]
action: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable)
15:45:32 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:47:26 [judy]
action: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element
15:48:51 [judy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
15:51:05 [judy]
action: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering, editing)
15:51:21 [judy]
zakim, take up item 2
15:51:21 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call" taken up [from judy]
15:52:20 [judy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0162.html
15:53:49 [judy]
action: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines
15:54:08 [judy]
zakim, take up item 3
15:54:08 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's
15:54:11 [Zakim]
... proposal" taken up [from judy]
15:54:56 [janina]
jf: No progress yet ...
15:55:32 [janina]
jb: Notes request for alternate proposals issued May 25, and expecting Jonas proposal may be coming soon
15:55:49 [janina]
jjb: Reviewing our concern?
15:56:06 [janina]
jf: That ARIA approach may be insufficient at this time
15:56:39 [janina]
jf: Backward compatibility, ability to consume/not on demand, and support in AT
15:58:17 [judy]
action: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above
16:00:05 [judy]
js: the question here is the things that we would expect that Jason's approach could _not_ handle; propose to raise those concerns now
16:00:29 [judy]
...would lead to a frustrating user experience
16:00:34 [JF]
s/Jason/Jonas
16:01:12 [judy]
agenda?
16:01:21 [judy]
zakim, close item 1
16:01:37 [judy]
zakim, close item 2
16:01:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines, closed
16:01:45 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:01:47 [Zakim]
2. Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call [from judy]
16:01:48 [judy]
zakim, take up next item
16:01:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call, closed
16:01:54 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:01:57 [Zakim]
3. Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's proposal
16:02:01 [Zakim]
... [from judy]
16:02:03 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer
16:02:08 [Zakim]
... example" taken up [from judy]
16:02:15 [judy]
zakim, take up next item
16:02:15 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, judy
16:02:23 [judy]
zakim, close item 3
16:02:23 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's
16:02:26 [Zakim]
... proposal, closed
16:02:26 [judy]
zakim, take up next item
16:02:27 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:02:29 [Zakim]
4. Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer example [from
16:02:32 [Zakim]
... judy]
16:02:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, judy
16:04:05 [janina]
jb: We seem to agree that there are circumstances where fig-caption is a perfectly acceptable fallback for alt
16:04:26 [janina]
jb: However, the opposite is also true--common examples where it's a completely inappropriate fallback for alt
16:05:05 [janina]
jb: Only huristic we can concieve to auto-distinguish would be length. Is there something else?
16:06:58 [janina]
jb: janina: test for length, and disallow longer than X
16:07:06 [judy]
s/huristic/heuristic/
16:07:18 [janina]
jf: concern that this is authoring issue, anyone using the epub will take more care
16:07:30 [janina]
q+
16:08:04 [janina]
jf: We're forcing conformance checker to become an WCAG conformance checker
16:08:18 [judy]
q+
16:08:32 [gfreed]
q+
16:08:49 [JF]
q+
16:09:09 [janina]
ack janina
16:09:16 [janina]
ack ju
16:10:15 [janina]
jf: Not wanting to get into discussion of who suggested fic-caption as fallback, seems inappropriate expectations of huristics
16:10:42 [janina]
jf: Length is simple, but crude, and probably insufficient on its own
16:11:52 [judy]
s/jf/jb/
16:11:57 [janina]
gf: Agrees with jf that length is not best way to decide, but also that we need to take advantage of changes in tech
16:11:58 [judy]
s/jf/jb/
16:12:21 [janina]
gf: This shouldn't be the only way to decide whether or not the fig-caption is appropriate
16:12:44 [janina]
jb: So a flag for excessive length fig-caption
16:12:53 [janina]
q+
16:13:16 [janina]
jf: How to get this into authoring tool requirements?
16:14:25 [judy]
s/huristic/heuristic/
16:14:27 [janina]
jf: Worried about introducing huristics into this area
16:14:31 [judy]
s/huristic/heuristic/
16:15:45 [janina]
ack jan
16:15:58 [judy]
ack g
16:15:59 [janina]
ack geo
16:16:02 [judy]
ack j
16:16:49 [janina]
jb: A warning on conformance meet the concern?
16:16:52 [janina]
gf: Yes for me
16:16:58 [JF]
q+
16:17:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
q+
16:17:44 [janina]
jf: Perhaps a discussion with Mike and perhaps Henry to write this up appropriately?
16:18:27 [judy]
john: for instance... *IF* alt=null *AND* fig-caption = >200 chars *THEN* throw flag
16:18:34 [janina]
rs: Do we also want compliance tools to do this?
16:18:39 [janina]
jb: Validator?
16:18:52 [janina]
rs: No, because no longer reliable as most content is generated
16:19:26 [janina]
rs: It's a WCAG compliance failure, and may be more valuable that way
16:19:38 [janina]
jb: On that level perhaps we should say even more
16:21:33 [judy]
js: the problem on the wcag level is still -- where's your alt?
16:23:32 [judy]
jf: ok, picture jf and rs sitting on the beach in the carribean; is that code non-conforming?
16:24:42 [janina]
jb: Doesn't this also break backwards compatibility?
16:24:46 [janina]
jf: A different story
16:24:54 [janina]
jb: But still think it's a relevant case
16:25:12 [janina]
jb: We want html5 to work whether or not people are fully upgraded
16:26:16 [janina]
jf: How is fig-caption reported to apis in older tech?
16:26:22 [janina]
jb: Can we figure this out?
16:26:26 [janina]
rs: Probably to a div
16:27:21 [janina]
jf: We won't lose the text, just perhaps the programatic association
16:27:29 [judy]
agenda?
16:30:13 [janina]
jb: Found high percentage of examples where fig-caption text I saw looked like good alt text
16:30:29 [JF]
q+
16:30:53 [janina]
js: Why shouldn't the author tool populate both fig-caption and alt with that text
16:31:40 [janina]
jb: But other times very inappropriate
16:32:40 [janina]
jf: Concerned about populating because people will hear it twice
16:33:13 [JF]
ack j
16:33:14 [janina]
ack r
16:33:54 [judy]
s/looked like good alt text/looked like good alt text, except for certain situations
16:35:18 [janina]
jb: Suggest we think more about this--especially whether implementation approach may help.
16:35:57 [JF]
+1
16:36:01 [janina]
jb: Any objections
16:36:12 [judy]
zakim, take up next
16:36:12 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Need someone else to take on table summary" taken up [from judy]
16:36:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
ok
16:36:51 [janina]
jb: Concerned about the reopen timeline on table summary
16:40:12 [JF]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html
16:40:26 [janina]
jb: Can we reassign table summary since Gregory is unavailable these days?
16:40:57 [janina]
jf: Notes two bugs escalated to tracker issues -- but not a new issue, I guess
16:41:34 [judy]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7633
16:41:55 [JF]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html
16:42:13 [judy]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7539
16:42:26 [janina]
The latter is more recent
16:43:49 [judy]
action: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary
16:43:55 [judy]
zakim, take up next
16:43:55 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;" taken up [from judy]
16:44:18 [judy]
agenda?
16:44:24 [JF]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html
16:44:46 [janina]
jf: Leif has submitted a cp
16:44:47 [JF]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0480.html
16:45:19 [janina]
jf: Leif labeled is a 'first' edit, but he's on target
16:45:37 [janina]
jf: I intend to clean up the English and bring it back here
16:47:38 [judy]
minutes from last time: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/06-text-minutes.html
16:49:19 [janina]
rs: So the question is what's the error handling?
16:49:42 [janina]
rs: So, shouldn't alt='foo' overide aria-presentation?
16:50:10 [janina]
rs: So, no longer presenation, but it should be flagged
16:51:58 [Zakim]
-Geoff_Freed
16:52:35 [JF]
q+
16:53:42 [janina]
jb: Looking for something concrete that we can verify on this? Do we agree on what to do?
16:54:46 [judy]
action: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation
16:55:12 [judy]
agenda?
16:55:25 [judy]
zakim, close item 6
16:55:26 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, judy
16:56:03 [janina]
scribe for june 20 is Rich
16:56:05 [JF]
ack jf
16:56:17 [janina]
Janina will chair June 20
16:56:36 [judy]
zakim, take up next item
16:56:36 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Other business?" taken up [from judy]
16:56:47 [judy]
next scribe is rich
16:56:55 [judy]
next chair is janina
16:56:56 [janina]
zakim, bye
16:56:56 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Judy, +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, +1.617.300.aabb, Geoff_Freed, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:56:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #text
16:56:58 [judy]
thanks all!
16:57:02 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
16:57:06 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html janina
17:01:41 [janina]
janina has left #text
17:06:35 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has left #text