IRC log of text on 2011-06-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:18:18 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #text
- 15:18:18 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-irc
- 15:18:19 [judy]
- zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)
- 15:18:19 [Zakim]
- ok, judy; I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
- 15:18:19 [judy]
- meeting: HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference
- 15:18:19 [judy]
- chair:Judy_Brewer
- 15:18:19 [judy]
- scribe: Janina_Sajka
- 15:18:45 [judy]
- agenda+ Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines
- 15:18:45 [judy]
- agenda+ Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call
- 15:18:45 [judy]
- agenda+ Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's proposal
- 15:18:45 [judy]
- agenda+ Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer example
- 15:18:46 [judy]
- agenda+ Need someone else to take on table summary
- 15:18:47 [judy]
- agenda+ Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;
- 15:18:51 [judy]
- agenda+ Other business?
- 15:18:53 [judy]
- agenda+ Confirm actions, timelines, next meetings; identify next scribe; adjourn.
- 15:30:48 [Zakim]
- WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has now started
- 15:30:56 [Zakim]
- +Judy
- 15:31:08 [Zakim]
- + +1.650.468.aaaa
- 15:31:11 [Zakim]
- -Judy
- 15:31:12 [Zakim]
- +Judy
- 15:33:01 [JF]
- JF has joined #text
- 15:33:18 [janina]
- janina has joined #text
- 15:33:19 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 15:33:28 [MichaelC]
- MichaelC has joined #text
- 15:33:39 [janina]
- zakim, ??P0 is Janina
- 15:33:39 [Zakim]
- +Janina; got it
- 15:33:43 [janina]
- scribe: janina
- 15:34:35 [janina]
- JF: Still owes meta generator text
- 15:36:40 [Zakim]
- +??P2
- 15:37:10 [judy]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 15:37:10 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines" taken up [from judy]
- 15:37:14 [gfreed]
- gfreed has joined #text
- 15:37:59 [judy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
- 15:38:09 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.300.aabb - is perhaps WGBH?
- 15:38:34 [judy]
- zakim, +1.617.300 is Geoff_Freed
- 15:38:34 [Zakim]
- sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300'
- 15:38:52 [JF]
- zakim, aabb is geoff_freed
- 15:38:52 [Zakim]
- sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
- 15:39:06 [MichaelC]
- zakim, wgbh is Geoff_Freed
- 15:39:06 [Zakim]
- +Geoff_Freed; got it
- 15:39:21 [JF]
- zakim, +1.617.300.aabb is geoff_freed
- 15:39:21 [Zakim]
- sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.300.aabb'
- 15:40:13 [janina]
- jb: Looking for spec review assignees on image element
- 15:43:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
- ha ha
- 15:43:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
- :-)
- 15:43:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
- calling in
- 15:44:58 [judy]
- action: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable)
- 15:45:32 [Zakim]
- +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 15:47:26 [judy]
- action: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element
- 15:48:51 [judy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review
- 15:51:05 [judy]
- action: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering, editing)
- 15:51:21 [judy]
- zakim, take up item 2
- 15:51:21 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call" taken up [from judy]
- 15:52:20 [judy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0162.html
- 15:53:49 [judy]
- action: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines
- 15:54:08 [judy]
- zakim, take up item 3
- 15:54:08 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's
- 15:54:11 [Zakim]
- ... proposal" taken up [from judy]
- 15:54:56 [janina]
- jf: No progress yet ...
- 15:55:32 [janina]
- jb: Notes request for alternate proposals issued May 25, and expecting Jonas proposal may be coming soon
- 15:55:49 [janina]
- jjb: Reviewing our concern?
- 15:56:06 [janina]
- jf: That ARIA approach may be insufficient at this time
- 15:56:39 [janina]
- jf: Backward compatibility, ability to consume/not on demand, and support in AT
- 15:58:17 [judy]
- action: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above
- 16:00:05 [judy]
- js: the question here is the things that we would expect that Jason's approach could _not_ handle; propose to raise those concerns now
- 16:00:29 [judy]
- ...would lead to a frustrating user experience
- 16:00:34 [JF]
- s/Jason/Jonas
- 16:01:12 [judy]
- agenda?
- 16:01:21 [judy]
- zakim, close item 1
- 16:01:37 [judy]
- zakim, close item 2
- 16:01:43 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines, closed
- 16:01:45 [Zakim]
- I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 16:01:47 [Zakim]
- 2. Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call [from judy]
- 16:01:48 [judy]
- zakim, take up next item
- 16:01:51 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call, closed
- 16:01:54 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 16:01:57 [Zakim]
- 3. Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's proposal
- 16:02:01 [Zakim]
- ... [from judy]
- 16:02:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer
- 16:02:08 [Zakim]
- ... example" taken up [from judy]
- 16:02:15 [judy]
- zakim, take up next item
- 16:02:15 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 was just opened, judy
- 16:02:23 [judy]
- zakim, close item 3
- 16:02:23 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, Progress check on response to longdesc counter-proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0354.html, and any remaining edits to request on Laura's
- 16:02:26 [Zakim]
- ... proposal, closed
- 16:02:26 [judy]
- zakim, take up next item
- 16:02:27 [Zakim]
- I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 16:02:29 [Zakim]
- 4. Figcaption: discuss further on potential heuristic approach; potential subjective evaluation of speculative rationales; requesting removal of blind photographer example [from
- 16:02:32 [Zakim]
- ... judy]
- 16:02:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 was just opened, judy
- 16:04:05 [janina]
- jb: We seem to agree that there are circumstances where fig-caption is a perfectly acceptable fallback for alt
- 16:04:26 [janina]
- jb: However, the opposite is also true--common examples where it's a completely inappropriate fallback for alt
- 16:05:05 [janina]
- jb: Only huristic we can concieve to auto-distinguish would be length. Is there something else?
- 16:06:58 [janina]
- jb: janina: test for length, and disallow longer than X
- 16:07:06 [judy]
- s/huristic/heuristic/
- 16:07:18 [janina]
- jf: concern that this is authoring issue, anyone using the epub will take more care
- 16:07:30 [janina]
- q+
- 16:08:04 [janina]
- jf: We're forcing conformance checker to become an WCAG conformance checker
- 16:08:18 [judy]
- q+
- 16:08:32 [gfreed]
- q+
- 16:08:49 [JF]
- q+
- 16:09:09 [janina]
- ack janina
- 16:09:16 [janina]
- ack ju
- 16:10:15 [janina]
- jf: Not wanting to get into discussion of who suggested fic-caption as fallback, seems inappropriate expectations of huristics
- 16:10:42 [janina]
- jf: Length is simple, but crude, and probably insufficient on its own
- 16:11:52 [judy]
- s/jf/jb/
- 16:11:57 [janina]
- gf: Agrees with jf that length is not best way to decide, but also that we need to take advantage of changes in tech
- 16:11:58 [judy]
- s/jf/jb/
- 16:12:21 [janina]
- gf: This shouldn't be the only way to decide whether or not the fig-caption is appropriate
- 16:12:44 [janina]
- jb: So a flag for excessive length fig-caption
- 16:12:53 [janina]
- q+
- 16:13:16 [janina]
- jf: How to get this into authoring tool requirements?
- 16:14:25 [judy]
- s/huristic/heuristic/
- 16:14:27 [janina]
- jf: Worried about introducing huristics into this area
- 16:14:31 [judy]
- s/huristic/heuristic/
- 16:15:45 [janina]
- ack jan
- 16:15:58 [judy]
- ack g
- 16:15:59 [janina]
- ack geo
- 16:16:02 [judy]
- ack j
- 16:16:49 [janina]
- jb: A warning on conformance meet the concern?
- 16:16:52 [janina]
- gf: Yes for me
- 16:16:58 [JF]
- q+
- 16:17:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
- q+
- 16:17:44 [janina]
- jf: Perhaps a discussion with Mike and perhaps Henry to write this up appropriately?
- 16:18:27 [judy]
- john: for instance... *IF* alt=null *AND* fig-caption = >200 chars *THEN* throw flag
- 16:18:34 [janina]
- rs: Do we also want compliance tools to do this?
- 16:18:39 [janina]
- jb: Validator?
- 16:18:52 [janina]
- rs: No, because no longer reliable as most content is generated
- 16:19:26 [janina]
- rs: It's a WCAG compliance failure, and may be more valuable that way
- 16:19:38 [janina]
- jb: On that level perhaps we should say even more
- 16:21:33 [judy]
- js: the problem on the wcag level is still -- where's your alt?
- 16:23:32 [judy]
- jf: ok, picture jf and rs sitting on the beach in the carribean; is that code non-conforming?
- 16:24:42 [janina]
- jb: Doesn't this also break backwards compatibility?
- 16:24:46 [janina]
- jf: A different story
- 16:24:54 [janina]
- jb: But still think it's a relevant case
- 16:25:12 [janina]
- jb: We want html5 to work whether or not people are fully upgraded
- 16:26:16 [janina]
- jf: How is fig-caption reported to apis in older tech?
- 16:26:22 [janina]
- jb: Can we figure this out?
- 16:26:26 [janina]
- rs: Probably to a div
- 16:27:21 [janina]
- jf: We won't lose the text, just perhaps the programatic association
- 16:27:29 [judy]
- agenda?
- 16:30:13 [janina]
- jb: Found high percentage of examples where fig-caption text I saw looked like good alt text
- 16:30:29 [JF]
- q+
- 16:30:53 [janina]
- js: Why shouldn't the author tool populate both fig-caption and alt with that text
- 16:31:40 [janina]
- jb: But other times very inappropriate
- 16:32:40 [janina]
- jf: Concerned about populating because people will hear it twice
- 16:33:13 [JF]
- ack j
- 16:33:14 [janina]
- ack r
- 16:33:54 [judy]
- s/looked like good alt text/looked like good alt text, except for certain situations
- 16:35:18 [janina]
- jb: Suggest we think more about this--especially whether implementation approach may help.
- 16:35:57 [JF]
- +1
- 16:36:01 [janina]
- jb: Any objections
- 16:36:12 [judy]
- zakim, take up next
- 16:36:12 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "Need someone else to take on table summary" taken up [from judy]
- 16:36:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
- ok
- 16:36:51 [janina]
- jb: Concerned about the reopen timeline on table summary
- 16:40:12 [JF]
- http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html
- 16:40:26 [janina]
- jb: Can we reassign table summary since Gregory is unavailable these days?
- 16:40:57 [janina]
- jf: Notes two bugs escalated to tracker issues -- but not a new issue, I guess
- 16:41:34 [judy]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7633
- 16:41:55 [JF]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html
- 16:42:13 [judy]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7539
- 16:42:26 [janina]
- The latter is more recent
- 16:43:49 [judy]
- action: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary
- 16:43:55 [judy]
- zakim, take up next
- 16:43:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 6. "Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;" taken up [from judy]
- 16:44:18 [judy]
- agenda?
- 16:44:24 [JF]
- http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html
- 16:44:46 [janina]
- jf: Leif has submitted a cp
- 16:44:47 [JF]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0480.html
- 16:45:19 [janina]
- jf: Leif labeled is a 'first' edit, but he's on target
- 16:45:37 [janina]
- jf: I intend to clean up the English and bring it back here
- 16:47:38 [judy]
- minutes from last time: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/06-text-minutes.html
- 16:49:19 [janina]
- rs: So the question is what's the error handling?
- 16:49:42 [janina]
- rs: So, shouldn't alt='foo' overide aria-presentation?
- 16:50:10 [janina]
- rs: So, no longer presenation, but it should be flagged
- 16:51:58 [Zakim]
- -Geoff_Freed
- 16:52:35 [JF]
- q+
- 16:53:42 [janina]
- jb: Looking for something concrete that we can verify on this? Do we agree on what to do?
- 16:54:46 [judy]
- action: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation
- 16:55:12 [judy]
- agenda?
- 16:55:25 [judy]
- zakim, close item 6
- 16:55:26 [Zakim]
- I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, judy
- 16:56:03 [janina]
- scribe for june 20 is Rich
- 16:56:05 [JF]
- ack jf
- 16:56:17 [janina]
- Janina will chair June 20
- 16:56:36 [judy]
- zakim, take up next item
- 16:56:36 [Zakim]
- agendum 7. "Other business?" taken up [from judy]
- 16:56:47 [judy]
- next scribe is rich
- 16:56:55 [judy]
- next chair is janina
- 16:56:56 [janina]
- zakim, bye
- 16:56:56 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were Judy, +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, +1.617.300.aabb, Geoff_Freed, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 16:56:56 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #text
- 16:56:58 [judy]
- thanks all!
- 16:57:02 [janina]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 16:57:06 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:57:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html janina
- 17:01:41 [janina]
- janina has left #text
- 17:06:35 [MichaelC]
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