21:26:37 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 21:26:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-html-a11y-irc 21:26:39 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:26:39 RRSAgent, make logs world 21:26:39 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 21:26:41 Zakim, this will be 2119 21:26:41 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 21:26:42 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 21:26:42 Date: 08 June 2011 21:27:02 zakim, this is 2119 21:27:02 JF, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119". 21:27:13 zakim, this will be 2119 21:27:13 ok, JF; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 21:27:51 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has now started 21:27:58 + +1.650.468.aaaa 21:28:14 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 21:28:16 Chair: Janina_Sajka 21:28:17 Scribe: John_Foliot 21:28:19 agenda: this 21:28:20 agenda+ Paused Media: Updates? Browser Support? 21:28:22 agenda+ Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin 21:28:24 agenda+ Texted Descriptions: Requirements on A11y APIs 21:28:26 agenda+ 3GPP Request Followup 21:28:27 agenda+http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0316 21:28:29 agenda+.html Actions Review 21:28:30 agenda+http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 21:28:32 agenda+ Other Business? 21:28:33 agenda+ be done 21:28:35 zakim, aaaa is JF 21:28:35 +JF; got it 21:28:44 silvia has joined #html-a11y 21:29:02 + +44.844.800.aabb 21:29:09 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:29:27 zakim, aabb is Sean 21:29:27 +Sean; got it 21:30:50 +??P6 21:31:06 zakim, ??P6 is Janina 21:31:06 +Janina; got it 21:31:23 rrsagent, make logs public 21:31:41 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:32:56 zakim, who's here? 21:32:56 On the phone I see JF, Sean, Janina 21:32:58 On IRC I see silvia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, Sean, janina, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot 21:34:11 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:35:26 +silvia 21:36:27 zakim, take up next item 21:36:27 agendum 1. "Paused Media: Updates? Browser Support?" taken up [from JF] 21:36:42 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:37:39 zakim, agenda? 21:37:39 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda: 21:37:40 1. Paused Media: Updates? Browser Support? [from JF] 21:37:42 2. Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin [from JF] 21:37:44 3. Texted Descriptions: Requirements on A11y APIs [from JF] 21:37:47 4. 3GPP Request Followup [from JF] 21:37:48 5. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0316 [from JF] 21:37:49 6. .html Actions Review [from JF] 21:37:50 7. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from JF] 21:37:51 8. Other Business? [from JF] 21:37:51 9. be done [from JF] 21:38:16 JS: question is, has there been any discussion with implementors? 21:38:46 JS: are we looking at the right thing here, will we get browser support or should we be looking at other solutions? 21:39:07 SP: Jonas is putting in a proposal w.r.t. @longdesc that will impact on this 21:39:12 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:39:37 JS: that is related, but by itself will not do the whole thing 21:39:48 SP: if that is possible then it should do most of it 21:40:03 there was also the introduction of the idea of @transcript 21:40:22 waiting to hear of outcome of @longdesc discussion 21:40:38 JS: we should not be waiting on other decision to move on our work 21:41:43 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:44:13 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:46:44 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 21:51:10 (Discussion on the browser issue of a) concatenating multiple aria-describedby values, and b0 flattening of markup 21:51:45 ACTION: JF should file bugs on this 21:51:45 Created ACTION-130 - Should file bugs on this [on John Foliot - due 2011-06-15]. 21:53:14 zakim, next item 21:53:14 agendum 2. "Hierarchical Navigation: Progress Checkin" taken up [from JF] 21:53:57 JS: lengthy discussion last week on hierarchical navigation would work 21:54:22 PS: sent a link to a demo from Google that showed how chapters worked 21:54:34 http://www.html5videoguide.net/demos/google_io/3_navigation/ 21:54:39 was also supposed to add some content to the wiki but has been backed up with other issues 21:55:17 Geoff Freed provided some feedback on those demos that was valuable 21:57:22 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:00:24 accerciser 22:02:05 theres a tool called acc-checker for UIA 22:02:55 http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2008/mar08/03-13AccessibilityToolsPR.mspx 22:07:31 zakim, next item 22:07:31 agendum 3. "Texted Descriptions: Requirements on A11y APIs" taken up [from JF] 22:07:35 +[Microsoft] 22:07:51 SP: there has been an active discussion around this 22:08:37 JS: notes that this has also shown up on related wikis and mailing lists (i.e. Linux foundation) 22:08:57 JS: there are some existing holes in the Accessibility APIs 22:09:11 they are being reviewed to try to keep the APIs in sync 22:09:28 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:10:20 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/IA2_1.3#IAccessibleMedia_interface 22:10:28 we should feed this information to others via members of this group to related stakeholders 22:10:32 +Judy 22:11:48 paulc has joined #html-a11y 22:12:12 zakim, [Microsoft] is Paul Cotton 22:12:12 I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Paul Cotton', JF 22:13:00 SH: believes the list discussion is productive, and should continue as is progressing 22:13:26 JS: think we should do 2 things here 22:13:34 we have crossed several usedcases 22:13:56 we need to extract them and spell them out, as some of them will require different solutions 22:14:02 zakim, who's noisy? 22:14:16 JF, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (40%), JF (3%), Janina (71%) 22:14:59 JS: Cynthia and I will bring this up ion the API discussions as well 22:15:04 +Michael_Cooper 22:15:21 also ensure that the various media types are being mapped correctly 22:15:33 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:15:43 plh has joined #html-a11y 22:15:49 +Plh 22:15:54 zakim, mute me 22:15:54 silvia should now be muted 22:16:06 zakim, next item 22:16:06 agendum 4. "3GPP Request Followup" taken up [from JF] 22:16:34 JS: Mark Watson unable to be with us today 22:16:47 he is also apparently a member of 3GPP 22:16:54 they might all be at WWDC 22:17:39 JS: we have a request from 3GPP that has some specificss that may be out of scope at w3C 22:18:05 we should perhaps clarify goals and purposes, next steps, etc. 22:18:34 PLH: the request was sent to the accessibility task force, and the request was that the HTML WG be included as well 22:18:49 the response can come back from Mike Smith, the chairs, we can figure that out later 22:19:12 JS: my understanding is that we have an agreed upon taxonomy, a specific way of naming all the media types that are in sync 22:19:35 so that we can be consistent whether it is machine read or human read 22:19:59 there are some differences (described video) where there is a difference between text-based and human narrated 22:20:12 but the value is that everything is called the same thing across the board 22:20:34 so that the emergent technology will be accessing the same kind of media as well_ consistancy 22:20:46 be it digital broadcasting, the web, etc. 22:21:24 there are mechanical questions, but should we first determine that we understand what is being sought? 22:21:31 "We are therefore defining a small set of names, most of which do not cover accessibility, and we hope that by the time a more complete name-set is needed we will be able to refer to HTML5" 22:21:55 "we identify a specification, registration authority, or other source by using a URI (normally expected to be a URN), and then provide values from the set defined by that source." 22:22:01 q+ 22:22:01 q? 22:22:08 JB: perhaps we need to jump to the next question, which is do we need a registry, and where does that live? 22:22:08 ack p 22:22:41 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:22:52 PLH: their liaison statement is saying that they would like to use the same nameset that we are defining in HTML5 22:23:05 the second statement, they are using a URN mechanism to define those terms 22:23:12 and would like the W3C to provide this 22:23:20 they didn't appear to ask for a registery 22:23:32 nor to make our list extensible 22:23:46 q+ 22:23:51 their only request is that they want to use the same things we are defining, and could we provide a URN 22:24:37 They want to ensure the link remains between themselves and us 22:24:45 Registration Authority by URI 22:24:47 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-track-element identifies the values for the enumerated attribute but does not define URIs for the keywords 22:25:06 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#dom-tracklist-getkind <- even better 22:25:12 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:25:14 q? 22:25:18 ack p 22:25:24 PC: want to speak dierctly to that 22:25:43 the track element identifies the keywords that are mapped to 22:25:53 can we provide a link to those 22:26:00 q? 22:26:01 zakim, unmute me 22:26:02 silvia should no longer be muted 22:26:06 q+ 22:26:20 PHL: providing a URI 22:26:24 zakim, mute me 22:26:24 silvia should now be muted 22:26:25 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-subtitles 22:26:30 SP: Provided a URI for track kinds 22:26:43 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-captions 22:26:49 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-descriptions 22:26:49 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#dom-TrackList-getKind-categories 22:26:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-chapters 22:27:00 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-metadata 22:27:01 PHL: we have URI's for each in the spec 22:27:04 ack ja 22:27:06 q+ 22:27:15 q+ janina 22:27:16 Thank you, plh 22:27:25 JB: we have had conversations several weeks back, where these were discussed 22:27:40 and that they needed to be referenced by more than the HTML5 spec 22:27:40 Another piece of magic: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-subtitles 22:27:42 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:27:56 we perhaps need to have these captured in a more geneirc location 22:28:09 What would happen if the semantics of the keyword changed? Would the URI change? 22:28:10 we discussed capturing this in a PF space 22:28:32 JS: Part of the reason is that we will be unhappy if we do not have 2 additional pieces of information 22:28:54 10 internationalization support for the human-readable string and the second is a clear definition 22:29:06 q? 22:29:11 the spec might be able to give the definition, but likely not provide the i18n support 22:29:17 ack me 22:29:22 ack s 22:29:26 ack janina 22:29:46 SP: Just verified document, and they speak specifically of both types of track - text tracks and media tracks 22:29:55 so we need to provide a link/url to both lists 22:29:58 both are in tables 22:30:09 or we can make a list of URLs pointing to individual values 22:30:13 which we already have 22:30:13 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:30:31 q? 22:30:32 JS: important to note that we are not complete in defining the list 22:30:32 zakim, mute me 22:30:32 silvia should now be muted 22:30:43 JB: agrees tht we are not finished, but believes we are close 22:31:05 the other issue is questioning the wisdom of pointing directly at HTML% spec as it is far from finished 22:31:17 and believes the 3GPP is under a time crunch 22:31:26 q+ 22:31:44 so we likely need a list of these values external to the HTML5 spec 22:31:57 q? 22:32:08 JS: believes we are close as well, but tweaks remain 22:32:23 zakim, unmute me 22:32:23 silvia should no longer be muted 22:32:29 JB: if there is follow on work, could that be changing these values as well 22:32:35 ack pa 22:32:43 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:32:44 PC: wants to partially answer Judy's question 22:32:49 if the URI's will be dated or not 22:32:57 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-iframe-element.html#attr-track-kind-keyword-subtitles 22:33:00 the examples that PLH provided are not dated 22:33:35 poses the question or what happens if that URI changes 22:33:41 q? 22:33:42 the heart of the question is stable URIs 22:33:50 PLH: believes we have a plan 22:34:04 we cannot give 'stable' versions until we are in Rec status 22:34:14 unless they lean to a dated version 22:34:26 q? 22:34:41 so whether they point to a stable version in HTML5 or in an outside list, if we need to change them in relationship to HTML5 we will change them 22:34:57 JS: wants to reask about what if new sork might change this list 22:35:08 don't actually believe thus will have a large impact 22:35:17 zakim, mute me 22:35:17 silvia should now be muted 22:35:19 but we will likely continiue to better define and deliniate them 22:35:23 q+ 22:35:42 we have examples just in the last few days that show how things are changing 22:36:15 q? 22:36:21 ack ph 22:36:40 PLH: what is interesting is the list that the #GPP sent us that does not match ours 22:36:52 have we ver considered using their values? 22:36:52 zakim, unmute me 22:36:52 silvia should no longer be muted 22:37:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Track_Kinds 22:37:26 JS: don't recall looking at their list and saying is there anyhting missing? 22:37:44 we also looked at the values used in OGG, 3GPP, suggestions from David Singer, and others 22:37:49 q? 22:37:58 we had a large list and did a consistant and thorough review 22:38:11 many of what 3GPP had suggested were already defined by us 22:38:47 q? 22:38:56 JB: I think PLH is asking if we are already 'baked' on our terms, or is there some of their terms that we could adopt 22:39:06 we did the mapping, but what does that mean moving forward 22:39:20 JS: believes we were more thorough 22:39:30 don't recall a large discussion on naming 22:39:46 we have tried to be very precise going back to when we were defining user requirements 22:40:21 JB: in other words, we beleived our terms were more disambiguating than theirs 22:40:31 JS: happy to coninue having further discussion 22:40:37 q? 22:40:46 ack ph 22:40:54 ack pl 22:41:01 PLH: still not clear on how to answer the stability issue 22:41:14 JB: perhaps we just tel lthem where we are, and offer our projections 22:41:24 JS: Clarrify we are after the same goals 22:41:49 PLH: the other issue was that just pointing to the spec does not address the i18n issue 22:42:20 we can keep the current list in the spec, and create a second duplicate list (like a registery) that also provides the translations 22:42:28 we just need to ensure they remain in sync 22:42:41 q? 22:42:52 the other is to extract that from the spec, and define it elsewhere and pointing to it in the HTML5 spec 22:43:14 JB: wich resurfaces the question, and argues that they should reside outside of the spec and be a reference 22:43:29 PLH: we need to bring this to the Working Group and be sure they understand and agree 22:43:40 so before we can respond, we need to decide internally 22:43:43 +q 22:44:11 JB: if it is clear that they will be used in other specs, then that argues for external registery 22:44:30 JS: believes there is relevance to web on tv and real-time communications 22:44:49 PLH: don't think that web on TV is relevant, but real-time might be interested 22:45:09 q? 22:45:12 ack jf 22:45:25 q+ 22:45:51 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:46:04 q? 22:46:07 JF: there is precedence in moving registries like this out of the spec (ie: microdata/microformats) 22:46:12 ack s 22:46:16 ack me 22:46:19 JB: there are likely additional parties that care about this 22:46:35 SP: don't think that this is a good idea to have it outside of the spec 22:46:43 it means to lists to maintain 22:47:33 thinks that HTML5 should be the definitive text 22:47:52 JS: don't see a need for i18n 22:47:59 SP: they are just string identifiers 22:48:22 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:48:26 q? 22:48:34 JS: think we want consistent taxonomies based on both machine and human readable values 22:48:44 +1 to Sylvia's point about the URIs being strings 22:48:53 PLH: agrees with SP on the string value issue 22:48:58 with no translation 22:49:55 zakim, mute me 22:49:55 silvia should now be muted 22:50:18 q? 22:50:42 JB: understands the concern about one authoritve list to maintain 22:50:57 but concerned to hear "and if we need to add something then we can" 22:51:21 if/when HTML5 is Rec there will be little appetite to reopen 22:51:28 q+ 22:51:42 JS: PF also had concerns that the strings could be consistantly translatable 22:51:45 PLH: 22:51:51 ack pl 22:51:55 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:51:57 we are talking about a specification thta is written completel in english 22:52:30 so there is no difference between other values that we have in english only that the i18n community already uses 22:52:34 q? 22:53:47 q? 22:54:12 PLH: can see the use-case of keeping this separate as well as integrated 22:54:58 q? 22:55:10 PLH: if we have an external list, then we need to define what happens when a new value is introduced 22:55:33 PC: these are a numerated list of values, which means there is a finte set in the spec 22:55:53 JS: this is a relatively new area, which means we can't be sure 22:55:55 q? 22:56:36 JB: believes PLH's argument about browser support is compelling, but will media players also be drawing upon these as well, and might be more nimble in adoption 22:56:52 so are we only looking at browsers? 22:57:16 PLH: so we are talking about non-HTML use cases as well 22:57:28 PLH: Not clear that 3GPP wants to use those values 22:57:48 q? 22:57:54 any kind of HTML5 implementation? 22:58:13 JS: next steps? 22:58:32 JB: seems we are leaning towards inside of the HTML5 spec 22:58:56 and we've raised several questions against that 22:59:15 does it make sense to look at this more fully and try and reach a consensus 22:59:31 JS: thinks there is a split between inside and outside of spec thoughts 22:59:44 JB: can we continue to discuss on list for another week? 22:59:55 PLH: perhaps we can have David Singer on the call next week 23:00:13 q? 23:00:19 JS: should we respond with an update that we are not 'complete" yet but under active discussion 23:00:42 JB: will PLH coordinate with Janina to advance an update to 3GPP? 23:01:03 PLH: is that ok with Paul as well? (Paul agrees) 23:01:18 JS: will return to this next week 23:01:30 JS: thanks and see you all next week 23:01:33 -silvia 23:01:35 meeting concluded 23:01:37 -Sean 23:01:41 -Plh 23:01:42 -Judy 23:01:43 -Janina 23:01:44 -JF 23:02:20 zakim, bye 23:02:20 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.650.468.aaaa, JF, +44.844.800.aabb, Sean, Janina, silvia, [Microsoft], Judy, Michael_Cooper, Plh 23:02:20 Zakim has left #html-a11y 23:02:45 rrsagent, make logs public 23:02:57 rrsagent, make minutes 23:02:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-html-a11y-minutes.html JF 23:04:05 zakim, please part 23:14:21 janina has left #html-a11y 23:14:27 janina has joined #html-a11y 23:39:13 davidb has joined #html-a11y