15:01:11 RRSAgent has joined #prov 15:01:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/03-prov-irc 15:01:13 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:01:13 Zakim has joined #prov 15:01:15 Zakim, this will be 15:01:15 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 15:01:16 Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:01:16 Date: 03 June 2011 15:01:33 paolo has joined #prov 15:01:35 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:35 sorry, tlebo, I don't know what conference this is 15:01:36 On IRC I see paolo, Zakim, RRSAgent, StephenCresswell, tlebo, GK_, dgarijo, YolandaGil, jun, frew, Yogesh, jorn, stain, sandro, trackbot 15:01:43 zakim, this is #prov 15:01:44 sorry, tlebo, I do not see a conference named '#prov' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:01:51 Zakim, this will be prov-wg 15:01:51 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, YolandaGil 15:01:53 zakim, this will be prov 15:01:53 ok, sandro, I see SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM already started 15:01:58 -??P8 15:02:06 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:06 On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, ??P2, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro 15:02:13 +??P7 15:02:27 RRSAgent, pointer? 15:02:27 See http://www.w3.org/2011/06/03-prov-irc#T15-02-27 15:02:34 Zakim, this will be prov-wg 15:02:34 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, YolandaGil 15:02:39 Zakim, ??P7 is me 15:02:39 I already had ??P7 as ??P7, dgarijo 15:02:44 Zakim, this will be prov 15:02:44 ok, YolandaGil, I see SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM already started 15:03:16 zakim, who is on the phone 15:03:16 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', GK_ 15:03:25 Zakim, ??P7 is dgarijo 15:03:25 +dgarijo; got it 15:03:28 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:29 On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, ??P2, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, ??P9 15:03:40 -??P2 15:03:41 scribe: tlebo 15:03:56 -??P9 15:03:58 +??P2 15:04:02 zakim, who is on the call? 15:04:02 On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, ??P2 15:04:04 Zakim, ??P2 is me 15:04:04 +jorn; got it 15:04:20 +??P11 15:04:26 +Yogesh 15:04:33 -??P11 15:04:34 +zednik 15:04:47 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/File:Provenance-XG-Overview.pdf 15:04:49 +[IPcaller] 15:04:57 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:04:58 +jun; got it 15:04:58 Having trouble with conference passcode again 15:05:02 sandro has changed the topic to: Incubator Review Session, slides: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/File:Provenance-XG-Overview.pdf 15:05:07 +??P14 15:05:25 +??P8 15:05:36 zakim, ??p8 is me 15:05:36 +GK_; got it 15:06:20 yolanda: notes the final report. 15:06:29 jcheney has joined #prov 15:06:46 the link to the final report: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/ 15:07:11 paolo_ has joined #prov 15:07:20 topic: slide 3 15:07:35 +??P22 15:07:44 zakim, ??P22 is me 15:07:44 +jcheney; got it 15:08:05 trust, what things are and what they mean, how it was collected. CLOSED SYSTEM - we know it all and trust it. 15:08:23 Provenance: needed for operating in an open information system. Make implicit expectations of closed system explicit. 15:08:24 contrast with OPEN SYSTEM - harder to use it because many contribute that you do not know. 15:08:45 consumer: how can I trust what I see? 15:09:10 (Slide 3)^ 15:09:38 Yolanda listing examles of multiple sources from which we collect evidence. who created it, who is responsible, whom do I attribute? 15:09:56 +??P24 15:10:00 how old, who is managing repository? how can we veify these aspects? 15:10:10 topic: slide 4 15:10:45 in business - how do we ensure compliance with processes. e.g., outsourcing and getting results. 15:11:18 in science - how are results obtained? papers can get retracted. 15:11:33 in news - 15:11:37 Wondering how much interaction is there between work on provenance and work on trust in open systems (e.g. trust conferences, etc. 15:11:57 in law and IP - who owns or has released document with what permissions? 15:12:15 topic: slide 5 15:12:44 TBL's oh yeah button quote 1997 15:13:26 trust at the top of the layer cake. 15:13:28 topic: slide 6 15:13:59 provenance need quotes. 15:14:16 topic: slide 7 15:14:28 open government 15:14:45 -frew 15:15:09 John Sheridan UK National Archives data.gov.uk "Provenance is the number one issue that we face when publishing governmetn data in data.gov.uk" 15:15:28 +frew 15:15:33 being able to qualify what the data means. 15:15:35 topic: slide 8 15:15:52 provenance in science. not being able to reproduce results. 15:16:25 research forensics - people that dissect publications failing to reproduce results. e.g. clinical trials being done are based on false results. 15:17:22 e.g. Nobel prize winner's paper was retracted becuase couldn't be reproduced (not the prize paper) 15:17:59 some think "provenance is a no brainer; just do it :-)" 15:18:13 topic: slide 9 15:18:27 work done in incubator group 15:18:37 topic: slide 10 15:18:38 IMO, If we can't make it a (nearly) a no-brainer for developers, we'll struggle to make it happen 15:19:25 people don't know how to approach provenance. 15:19:53 linked data community if facing the problem - querying the linked data and getting triples that don't make sense. what text extraction tools produced them? 15:20:19 scattered terminology, confounded with "trust" 15:20:42 Before "provenance", there was a fair amount of SemWeb interest in "Context" 15:20:50 increased interest in provenance: Luc claims 1/2 of provenance papers published in last two years. 15:20:53 topic: slide 11 15:21:13 incubator group: state of art and develop road map 15:21:41 topic: slide 12 15:22:06 topic: slide 13 15:22:27 shared definition done at VERY END of group's work. 15:23:08 summarized 30 use cases by using 3 flagship scenarios 15:23:22 reviewed existing provenance vocabularies. 15:24:28 numbers (11/15) are dates 15:24:36 topic: slide 14 15:24:46 (month/day) 15:25:04 (slide assumes audience knows period of activity) 15:25:52 I'd quite like to take this definition, and notes, into the WG work 15:26:31 provenance is the infrastructure that provides the BASIS to decide trust, verification, etc. 15:27:01 trust algorithm operate over provenance records. 15:27:40 provenance assertions of provenance assertions 15:28:02 infernece to handle incompleteness and errors. 15:28:11 different accounts for same resource. 15:28:23 s/infernece/inference/ 15:28:39 topic: slide 16 15:29:22 Three major dimensions to use to think about provenance. 15:30:04 Dimention 1 - content = what are we representing? 15:30:15 s/Dimention/Dimension/ 15:31:45 (5 types of Dimension 1, Content: attribution, process, evolution and versioning, justification for decisions, and entailment) 15:31:54 Dimension 2 - Management 15:32:40 @tlebo, still talking to (1) content, I think 15:33:12 (4 types of Dimension 2, Management: publication, access, dissemintation control, scale) 15:33:41 (@GK_ sorry, I confounded Data Access and Access) 15:33:53 -??P14 15:34:31 I know 2) Mangement - Access as "Discoverability and Accessibility" 15:34:37 +??P14 15:34:48 zakim, ??P14 is me 15:34:48 +paolo; got it 15:34:50 topic: slide 17 15:35:18 Zakim, who is noisy? 15:35:23 Yogesh has joined #prov 15:35:30 jorn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [ISI] (31%), jorn (26%), paolo (86%) 15:35:46 Dimension 3 - Use includes (Understanding, interoperability, comparison, accountability, trust, imperfections, debugging) 15:35:49 just muted myself, sorry 15:35:57 topic: slide 17 15:36:36 pgroth has joined #prov 15:36:58 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:36:58 On the phone I see [ISI], tlebo, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, jorn, Yogesh, zednik, jun, GK_, jcheney, ??P24, frew, paolo 15:37:08 3 Dimensions are a framework to think about provenance issues. 15:37:11 topic: slide 19 15:37:23 Zakim, +31.62.417.aaaa is me 15:37:23 +pgroth; got it 15:37:23 30 use cases from the community 15:37:33 I've wrestled with these 3 dimensions; still not completely sure, but seems to be (1) what does provenance consist of; (2) how make provenance available; (3) what can I do with provenance once I get it? 15:38:02 spent a lot of time defining how to structure use cases. 15:38:05 topic: slide 21 15:38:16 3 flagship scenarios 15:38:20 topic: slide 22 15:39:01 blogging news company needs to produce truthful and quality reports. 15:39:37 tweets of panda, NYTimes journalist - all different sources that the blogging news company can use. 15:39:43 By the way Yolanda there are slides for the Disease Outbreak scenario at: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario 15:39:49 did the tweeter modify the image of the panda? 15:39:56 "without getting sued" :) 15:40:50 manage heterogenous provenance records. how to present them, how to expose more details. 15:40:53 topic: slide 25 15:40:58 disease outbreak 15:41:00 Luc has joined #prov 15:41:56 different communities analyzing the outbreak 15:42:10 topic: slide 26 15:42:24 +luc 15:42:37 business scenario - how does a company show that they complied with a contract? letting the consumer run verification procedures. 15:42:52 keeping some processes proprietary, but not breaking the verification. 15:43:14 topic: slide 30 15:43:20 start of art report 15:43:40 topic: slide 31 15:43:52 areas of research and application for provenance 15:43:55 topic: slide 32 15:43:58 Luc's survey 15:44:57 (I organized the mappings at https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArTeDpS4-nUDdFBrQ3ZJMXROUHh4SmxRUVE5V0QwbVE&hl=en_US#gid=0) 15:45:40 yolanda enumerating the provenance vocabularies 15:46:33 provenance surveys in literature: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Survey 15:46:37 origina mappings that Yolanda mentioned: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings#Mappings 15:46:45 topic: slide 34 15:47:15 short vs longer term recommendations for next steps. 15:47:33 reproducability should be longer term 15:48:16 zednik has joined #prov 15:48:19 topic: open to questions 15:48:22 q? 15:48:45 -jorn 15:48:56 q+ 15:48:58 +??P2 15:49:06 Zakim, ??p2 is me 15:49:06 +jorn; got it 15:49:56 GK_: relationships to other work? Trust in open systems. Has provenance work interacted with work in trust in open systems and the Trust Conferences. 15:50:22 Yolanda: published survey of Trust in CS and semweb 3/4 years ago. on prov-xg wiki state of the art report. 15:50:30 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Survey 15:51:22 trust: can you trust a certain entity. Can I authenticate to give access. Develop algorithms that I trust you and you trust another (transfer of trust) PLENTY of work this. 15:51:37 LESS work on "can I trust this content" (as opposed to "can I trust this entity" 15:51:59 trust you on movie recommendation or using one road over another. 15:52:09 content-based trust research is quite narrow. 15:52:19 trusting agents vs. trusting content. 15:52:41 -frew 15:53:21 Yolanda: many say doing provenance is easy, just make a schema and do it. 15:53:42 but the content in the provenance record is one, but how do you access, manage, and use those records? 15:53:51 it requires many considerations. 15:54:13 need for standards - many systems that track provenance by themselves, but how can other systems get, read and use those records? 15:54:18 q+ to test understanding of dimensions 15:54:28 need provenance in an open system where you don't have full control. 15:54:39 ack GK_ 15:54:39 GK_, you wanted to test understanding of dimensions 15:55:07 not only that, but provide guidelines for publishing provenance should be important too 15:55:41 GK_ how do 3 dimensions apply to doing a user requirements analysis? "what, how, and why" a fair reflection? 15:55:44 yolanda: yes 15:56:28 q+ to ask about scientific applications. 15:57:15 tlebo: scientific apps? observation and measurements? 15:57:35 yolanda: use case 2, but there are MANY sociological aspects within that scientific process. 15:58:41 tlebo: is there a nugget of observation and measurement within the disease outbreak flagship scenario? 15:58:43 yolanda: yes. 15:58:58 pgroth: notion of objects 15:59:25 thanks Yolanda! 15:59:29 thank you very much Yolanda! 15:59:30 +1 for Yolanda being helpful! 15:59:31 +1 thanks 15:59:32 yupp, thanks a lot :) 15:59:33 Thank you Yolanda. 15:59:37 thank you once again, Yolanda! 15:59:38 thank Yolanda! 15:59:49 *thanks 15:59:57 -Yogesh 16:00:01 -jcheney 16:00:03 -jun 16:00:03 -GK_ 16:00:04 -jorn 16:00:04 -paolo 16:00:04 -dgarijo 16:00:05 -luc 16:00:09 -??P24 16:00:14 paolo has left #prov 16:00:16 rrsagent, set log public 16:00:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:00:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/03-prov-minutes.html YolandaGil 16:01:27 -[ISI] 16:01:29 -tlebo 16:01:31 -sandro 16:01:34 -pgroth 16:01:37 pgroth has left #prov 16:01:49 -zednik 16:01:50 SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM has ended 16:01:52 Attendees were frew, [ISI], tlebo, sandro, dgarijo, jorn, Yogesh, zednik, jun, GK_, jcheney, paolo, pgroth, luc 16:02:32 StephenCresswell has left #prov