IRC log of prov on 2011-06-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:01:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:13 [Zakim]
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15:01:15 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:01:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:01:16 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:01:16 [trackbot]
Date: 03 June 2011
15:01:33 [paolo]
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15:01:35 [tlebo]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:35 [Zakim]
sorry, tlebo, I don't know what conference this is
15:01:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see paolo, Zakim, RRSAgent, StephenCresswell, tlebo, GK_, dgarijo, YolandaGil, jun, frew, Yogesh, jorn, stain, sandro, trackbot
15:01:43 [tlebo]
zakim, this is #prov
15:01:44 [Zakim]
sorry, tlebo, I do not see a conference named '#prov' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:01:51 [YolandaGil]
Zakim, this will be prov-wg
15:01:51 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, YolandaGil
15:01:53 [sandro]
zakim, this will be prov
15:01:53 [Zakim]
ok, sandro, I see SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM already started
15:01:58 [Zakim]
15:02:06 [tlebo]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, ??P2, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro
15:02:13 [Zakim]
15:02:27 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:02:27 [RRSAgent]
15:02:34 [YolandaGil]
Zakim, this will be prov-wg
15:02:34 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, YolandaGil
15:02:39 [dgarijo]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:02:39 [Zakim]
I already had ??P7 as ??P7, dgarijo
15:02:44 [YolandaGil]
Zakim, this will be prov
15:02:44 [Zakim]
ok, YolandaGil, I see SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM already started
15:03:16 [GK_]
zakim, who is on the phone
15:03:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', GK_
15:03:25 [dgarijo]
Zakim, ??P7 is dgarijo
15:03:25 [Zakim]
+dgarijo; got it
15:03:28 [GK_]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, ??P2, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, ??P9
15:03:40 [Zakim]
15:03:41 [sandro]
scribe: tlebo
15:03:56 [Zakim]
15:03:58 [Zakim]
15:04:02 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see frew, [ISI], tlebo, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, ??P2
15:04:04 [jorn]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:04:04 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
15:04:20 [Zakim]
15:04:26 [Zakim]
15:04:33 [Zakim]
15:04:34 [Zakim]
15:04:47 [dgarijo]
15:04:49 [Zakim]
15:04:57 [jun]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:04:58 [Zakim]
+jun; got it
15:04:58 [GK_]
Having trouble with conference passcode again
15:05:02 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: Incubator Review Session, slides:
15:05:07 [Zakim]
15:05:25 [Zakim]
15:05:36 [GK_]
zakim, ??p8 is me
15:05:36 [Zakim]
+GK_; got it
15:06:20 [tlebo]
yolanda: notes the final report.
15:06:29 [jcheney]
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15:06:46 [dgarijo]
the link to the final report:
15:07:11 [paolo_]
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15:07:20 [tlebo]
topic: slide 3
15:07:35 [Zakim]
15:07:44 [jcheney]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:07:44 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
15:08:05 [tlebo]
trust, what things are and what they mean, how it was collected. CLOSED SYSTEM - we know it all and trust it.
15:08:23 [GK_]
Provenance: needed for operating in an open information system. Make implicit expectations of closed system explicit.
15:08:24 [tlebo]
contrast with OPEN SYSTEM - harder to use it because many contribute that you do not know.
15:08:45 [tlebo]
consumer: how can I trust what I see?
15:09:10 [GK_]
(Slide 3)^
15:09:38 [tlebo]
Yolanda listing examles of multiple sources from which we collect evidence. who created it, who is responsible, whom do I attribute?
15:09:56 [Zakim]
15:10:00 [tlebo]
how old, who is managing repository? how can we veify these aspects?
15:10:10 [tlebo]
topic: slide 4
15:10:45 [tlebo]
in business - how do we ensure compliance with processes. e.g., outsourcing and getting results.
15:11:18 [tlebo]
in science - how are results obtained? papers can get retracted.
15:11:33 [tlebo]
in news -
15:11:37 [GK_]
Wondering how much interaction is there between work on provenance and work on trust in open systems (e.g. trust conferences, etc.
15:11:57 [tlebo]
in law and IP - who owns or has released document with what permissions?
15:12:15 [tlebo]
topic: slide 5
15:12:44 [tlebo]
TBL's oh yeah button quote 1997
15:13:26 [tlebo]
trust at the top of the layer cake.
15:13:28 [tlebo]
topic: slide 6
15:13:59 [tlebo]
provenance need quotes.
15:14:16 [tlebo]
topic: slide 7
15:14:28 [tlebo]
open government
15:14:45 [Zakim]
15:15:09 [tlebo]
John Sheridan UK National Archives "Provenance is the number one issue that we face when publishing governmetn data in"
15:15:28 [Zakim]
15:15:33 [tlebo]
being able to qualify what the data means.
15:15:35 [tlebo]
topic: slide 8
15:15:52 [tlebo]
provenance in science. not being able to reproduce results.
15:16:25 [tlebo]
research forensics - people that dissect publications failing to reproduce results. e.g. clinical trials being done are based on false results.
15:17:22 [tlebo]
e.g. Nobel prize winner's paper was retracted becuase couldn't be reproduced (not the prize paper)
15:17:59 [tlebo]
some think "provenance is a no brainer; just do it :-)"
15:18:13 [tlebo]
topic: slide 9
15:18:27 [tlebo]
work done in incubator group
15:18:37 [tlebo]
topic: slide 10
15:18:38 [GK_]
IMO, If we can't make it a (nearly) a no-brainer for developers, we'll struggle to make it happen
15:19:25 [tlebo]
people don't know how to approach provenance.
15:19:53 [tlebo]
linked data community if facing the problem - querying the linked data and getting triples that don't make sense. what text extraction tools produced them?
15:20:19 [tlebo]
scattered terminology, confounded with "trust"
15:20:42 [GK_]
Before "provenance", there was a fair amount of SemWeb interest in "Context"
15:20:50 [tlebo]
increased interest in provenance: Luc claims 1/2 of provenance papers published in last two years.
15:20:53 [tlebo]
topic: slide 11
15:21:13 [tlebo]
incubator group: state of art and develop road map
15:21:41 [tlebo]
topic: slide 12
15:22:06 [tlebo]
topic: slide 13
15:22:27 [tlebo]
shared definition done at VERY END of group's work.
15:23:08 [tlebo]
summarized 30 use cases by using 3 flagship scenarios
15:23:22 [tlebo]
reviewed existing provenance vocabularies.
15:24:28 [tlebo]
numbers (11/15) are dates
15:24:36 [tlebo]
topic: slide 14
15:24:46 [jorn]
15:25:04 [tlebo]
(slide assumes audience knows period of activity)
15:25:52 [GK_]
I'd quite like to take this definition, and notes, into the WG work
15:26:31 [tlebo]
provenance is the infrastructure that provides the BASIS to decide trust, verification, etc.
15:27:01 [tlebo]
trust algorithm operate over provenance records.
15:27:40 [tlebo]
provenance assertions of provenance assertions
15:28:02 [tlebo]
infernece to handle incompleteness and errors.
15:28:11 [tlebo]
different accounts for same resource.
15:28:23 [jorn]
15:28:39 [tlebo]
topic: slide 16
15:29:22 [tlebo]
Three major dimensions to use to think about provenance.
15:30:04 [tlebo]
Dimention 1 - content = what are we representing?
15:30:15 [tlebo]
15:31:45 [tlebo]
(5 types of Dimension 1, Content: attribution, process, evolution and versioning, justification for decisions, and entailment)
15:31:54 [tlebo]
Dimension 2 - Management
15:32:40 [GK_]
@tlebo, still talking to (1) content, I think
15:33:12 [tlebo]
(4 types of Dimension 2, Management: publication, access, dissemintation control, scale)
15:33:41 [tlebo]
(@GK_ sorry, I confounded Data Access and Access)
15:33:53 [Zakim]
15:34:31 [tlebo]
I know 2) Mangement - Access as "Discoverability and Accessibility"
15:34:37 [Zakim]
15:34:48 [paolo]
zakim, ??P14 is me
15:34:48 [Zakim]
+paolo; got it
15:34:50 [jorn]
topic: slide 17
15:35:18 [jorn]
Zakim, who is noisy?
15:35:23 [Yogesh]
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15:35:30 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [ISI] (31%), jorn (26%), paolo (86%)
15:35:46 [tlebo]
Dimension 3 - Use includes (Understanding, interoperability, comparison, accountability, trust, imperfections, debugging)
15:35:49 [paolo]
just muted myself, sorry
15:35:57 [tlebo]
topic: slide 17
15:36:36 [pgroth]
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15:36:58 [pgroth]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:36:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [ISI], tlebo, +31.62.417.aaaa, sandro, dgarijo, jorn, Yogesh, zednik, jun, GK_, jcheney, ??P24, frew, paolo
15:37:08 [tlebo]
3 Dimensions are a framework to think about provenance issues.
15:37:11 [tlebo]
topic: slide 19
15:37:23 [pgroth]
Zakim, +31.62.417.aaaa is me
15:37:23 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
15:37:23 [tlebo]
30 use cases from the community
15:37:33 [GK_]
I've wrestled with these 3 dimensions; still not completely sure, but seems to be (1) what does provenance consist of; (2) how make provenance available; (3) what can I do with provenance once I get it?
15:38:02 [tlebo]
spent a lot of time defining how to structure use cases.
15:38:05 [tlebo]
topic: slide 21
15:38:16 [tlebo]
3 flagship scenarios
15:38:20 [tlebo]
topic: slide 22
15:39:01 [tlebo]
blogging news company needs to produce truthful and quality reports.
15:39:37 [tlebo]
tweets of panda, NYTimes journalist - all different sources that the blogging news company can use.
15:39:43 [jcheney]
By the way Yolanda there are slides for the Disease Outbreak scenario at:
15:39:49 [tlebo]
did the tweeter modify the image of the panda?
15:39:56 [jorn]
"without getting sued" :)
15:40:50 [tlebo]
manage heterogenous provenance records. how to present them, how to expose more details.
15:40:53 [tlebo]
topic: slide 25
15:40:58 [tlebo]
disease outbreak
15:41:00 [Luc]
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15:41:56 [tlebo]
different communities analyzing the outbreak
15:42:10 [tlebo]
topic: slide 26
15:42:24 [Zakim]
15:42:37 [tlebo]
business scenario - how does a company show that they complied with a contract? letting the consumer run verification procedures.
15:42:52 [tlebo]
keeping some processes proprietary, but not breaking the verification.
15:43:14 [tlebo]
topic: slide 30
15:43:20 [tlebo]
start of art report
15:43:40 [tlebo]
topic: slide 31
15:43:52 [tlebo]
areas of research and application for provenance
15:43:55 [tlebo]
topic: slide 32
15:43:58 [tlebo]
Luc's survey
15:44:57 [tlebo]
(I organized the mappings at
15:45:40 [tlebo]
yolanda enumerating the provenance vocabularies
15:46:33 [jorn]
provenance surveys in literature:
15:46:37 [tlebo]
origina mappings that Yolanda mentioned:
15:46:45 [tlebo]
topic: slide 34
15:47:15 [tlebo]
short vs longer term recommendations for next steps.
15:47:33 [tlebo]
reproducability should be longer term
15:48:16 [zednik]
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15:48:19 [tlebo]
topic: open to questions
15:48:22 [pgroth]
15:48:45 [Zakim]
15:48:56 [GK_]
15:48:58 [Zakim]
15:49:06 [jorn]
Zakim, ??p2 is me
15:49:06 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
15:49:56 [tlebo]
GK_: relationships to other work? Trust in open systems. Has provenance work interacted with work in trust in open systems and the Trust Conferences.
15:50:22 [tlebo]
Yolanda: published survey of Trust in CS and semweb 3/4 years ago. on prov-xg wiki state of the art report.
15:50:30 [jorn]
15:51:22 [tlebo]
trust: can you trust a certain entity. Can I authenticate to give access. Develop algorithms that I trust you and you trust another (transfer of trust) PLENTY of work this.
15:51:37 [tlebo]
LESS work on "can I trust this content" (as opposed to "can I trust this entity"
15:51:59 [tlebo]
trust you on movie recommendation or using one road over another.
15:52:09 [tlebo]
content-based trust research is quite narrow.
15:52:19 [tlebo]
trusting agents vs. trusting content.
15:52:41 [Zakim]
15:53:21 [tlebo]
Yolanda: many say doing provenance is easy, just make a schema and do it.
15:53:42 [tlebo]
but the content in the provenance record is one, but how do you access, manage, and use those records?
15:53:51 [tlebo]
it requires many considerations.
15:54:13 [tlebo]
need for standards - many systems that track provenance by themselves, but how can other systems get, read and use those records?
15:54:18 [GK_]
q+ to test understanding of dimensions
15:54:28 [tlebo]
need provenance in an open system where you don't have full control.
15:54:39 [pgroth]
ack GK_
15:54:39 [Zakim]
GK_, you wanted to test understanding of dimensions
15:55:07 [dgarijo]
not only that, but provide guidelines for publishing provenance should be important too
15:55:41 [tlebo]
GK_ how do 3 dimensions apply to doing a user requirements analysis? "what, how, and why" a fair reflection?
15:55:44 [tlebo]
yolanda: yes
15:56:28 [tlebo]
q+ to ask about scientific applications.
15:57:15 [tlebo]
tlebo: scientific apps? observation and measurements?
15:57:35 [tlebo]
yolanda: use case 2, but there are MANY sociological aspects within that scientific process.
15:58:41 [tlebo]
tlebo: is there a nugget of observation and measurement within the disease outbreak flagship scenario?
15:58:43 [tlebo]
yolanda: yes.
15:58:58 [tlebo]
pgroth: notion of objects
15:59:25 [Luc]
thanks Yolanda!
15:59:29 [jun]
thank you very much Yolanda!
15:59:30 [tlebo]
+1 for Yolanda being helpful!
15:59:31 [pgroth]
+1 thanks
15:59:32 [jorn]
yupp, thanks a lot :)
15:59:33 [GK_]
Thank you Yolanda.
15:59:37 [paolo]
thank you once again, Yolanda!
15:59:38 [dgarijo]
thank Yolanda!
15:59:49 [dgarijo]
15:59:57 [Zakim]
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16:00:14 [paolo]
paolo has left #prov
16:00:16 [YolandaGil]
rrsagent, set log public
16:00:25 [YolandaGil]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate YolandaGil
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16:01:37 [pgroth]
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16:01:50 [Zakim]
SW_(Prov WG)11:00AM has ended
16:01:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were frew, [ISI], tlebo, sandro, dgarijo, jorn, Yogesh, zednik, jun, GK_, jcheney, paolo, pgroth, luc
16:02:32 [StephenCresswell]
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