IRC log of ua on 2011-06-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:27:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:27:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-irc
16:27:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:27:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:27:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:27:37 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 33 minutes
16:27:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:27:38 [trackbot]
Date: 02 June 2011
16:58:05 [JAllan]
Agenda+ welcoming the return of the co-chair!
16:58:40 [JAllan]
agenda+ discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results
16:59:05 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:59:25 [JAllan]
agenda+ accessibility issues wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/User_Agent_issues_effecting_A11y
17:00:26 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:00:30 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:01:04 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:01:08 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:01:08 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:01:11 [Zakim]
+Greg
17:01:24 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:01:33 [kford]
zakim, code?
17:01:33 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), kford
17:01:43 [Zakim]
+JAllan
17:01:46 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:01:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
17:01:55 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:01:56 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:02:08 [kford]
zakim, aaaais kford
17:02:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaaais kford', kford
17:02:19 [kford]
zakim, 425-883-aaaa is kford
17:02:19 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '425-883-aaaa'
17:02:36 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:02:47 [Jan]
zakim, ??P6 is really Jan
17:02:47 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:02:57 [kford]
zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford
17:02:57 [Zakim]
sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa'
17:02:58 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:03:41 [kford]
zakim, aaaa is kford
17:03:41 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:03:54 [Zakim]
+KimPatch
17:06:38 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:05 [JAllan]
zakim, aganda
17:07:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aganda', JAllan
17:07:17 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda
17:07:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', JAllan
17:07:22 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:07:22 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
17:07:24 [Zakim]
1. welcoming the return of the co-chair! [from JAllan]
17:07:26 [Zakim]
2. discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results [from JAllan]
17:07:27 [Zakim]
3. accessibility issues wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/User_Agent_issues_effecting_A11y [from JAllan]
17:07:29 [Zakim]
+??P13
17:07:37 [sharper]
zakim, ??P13 is sharper
17:07:37 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:09:04 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:09:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1, welcoming the return of the co-chair!, closed
17:09:05 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:07 [Zakim]
2. discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results [from JAllan]
17:11:33 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
17:11:33 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
17:13:06 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
17:13:06 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "welcoming the return of the co-chair!" taken up [from JAllan]
17:13:16 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
17:13:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1, welcoming the return of the co-chair!, closed
17:13:17 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:13:18 [Zakim]
2. discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results [from JAllan]
17:13:26 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 2
17:13:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results" taken up [from JAllan]
17:15:04 [sharper]
topic: Comments from Suzanne Taylor
17:15:53 [sharper]
topic: 5.3.1 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results#xq2
17:17:51 [kford]
I like that one.
17:19:20 [sharper]
All: general discussion surrounding Jan's comments
17:21:23 [sharper]
JR: withdraws comments
17:22:25 [sharper]
JA: cannot see the direct benefits apart from the minor clarity in the readability of the proposal
17:22:59 [sharper]
GL: bringing these out would make modularise in the testing slightly easier but this isn't a major thing
17:23:11 [sharper]
JA: what is the consensus of the group?
17:23:30 [sharper]
KP: easier to read if it is together, easier to test if it is a part.
17:25:18 [sharper]
GL moves to look at 5.3.3 If we include this it should include the same two bullet items at 3.5.1 defining what are considered accessibility features. Plus they all need unique titles.
17:25:40 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results#xq3
17:26:37 [jeanne]
separate =1
17:26:41 [sharper]
JA: should we split or keep them together?
17:26:55 [sharper]
JR split
17:26:58 [sharper]
KF split
17:27:02 [sharper]
SH Split
17:27:17 [sharper]
GL: neutral
17:27:26 [sharper]
JA: split
17:27:43 [sharper]
KP: neutral
17:27:53 [sharper]
RESOLVED: split these
17:28:13 [sharper]
topic: 5.3.3 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results#xq3
17:28:33 [jeanne]
action: JS to update document to split 5.3.1 to separate content from user interface. See the survey of 2 June.
17:28:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-565 - Update document to split 5.3.1 to separate content from user interface. See the survey of 2 June. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-06-09].
17:29:31 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:32:43 [sharper]
JA: don't see that we need to specifically call out w3 specs that are implemented. this seems like a granular subset of 5.3.2. and should be written in the intent of 5.3.2
17:33:14 [sharper]
JS: I have a concern that we are confusing the issue by "W3C specifications designed to enhance accessibility of the content technology (e.g. WAI-ARIA)". I would rather see "implement and cite in the conformance claim how the user agent implements WAI-ARIA." But this makes WAI-ARIA a requirement of all user agents, and I am not sure if it applies to ALL user agents.
17:34:27 [sharper]
JR: this is where a subset of the other one.
17:34:40 [sharper]
GL: If we include this it should include the same two bullet items at 3.5.1 defining what are considered accessibility features. Plus they all need unique titles.
17:36:01 [sharper]
GL: we don't require any other specifications to be implemented, however we do say that if there are accessibility features in the OS etc then that has to be supported it therefore should be a separate SC, or a separate category and 3.5.1
17:36:17 [sharper]
JA: like the idea of just adding
17:36:40 [sharper]
GL: parallel language to 3.5.1
17:39:17 [sharper]
GL: I don't think what we're really trying to say comes out in the SC.
17:40:16 [mhakkinen]
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17:41:25 [sharper]
GL: for technologies that you implement support their accessibility features, and implement accessibility technologies… wordsmithing out loud
17:42:45 [sharper]
GL: we need to handle the fact that in some cases there is additional technologies we want user agents to support or implement
17:43:12 [sharper]
JL: we could add this to 5.3.1 or if we're splitting up this we could add it separately
17:43:21 [sharper]
s/JL/GL
17:45:08 [sharper]
JA: recaps… the third point– would be the platform stuff with an example of the accessibility API…?
17:46:00 [sharper]
GL: stream of consciousness - wordsmithing becomes too complex to the scribe
17:46:12 [sharper]
s/to/for
17:48:29 [Jan]
There is a useful list of platform API links here: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20110426/#gl_a12
17:49:23 [sharper]
Joan A: splitting the platform from the content and then adding the third one that is parallel to the content one that says you also implement and document any complementary specs for accessibility, is that necessary?
17:49:35 [sharper]
s/Joan A/JA
17:49:45 [sharper]
JR+1
17:49:48 [sharper]
MH+1
17:49:52 [sharper]
KP+1
17:50:09 [sharper]
KF+1
17:50:30 [sharper]
JS: done we cover this in our standard section?
17:50:55 [sharper]
JS: do we not just need to make this clear that ARIA goes is here?
17:52:29 [sharper]
JR: 4.1.1 seems to be relevant in this case therefore we do not have anything about MSAA
17:53:10 [sharper]
GL: does that mean we can take the platform staff out of 5.3/JR I think that's right
17:53:19 [sharper]
s/staff/stuff
17:54:01 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110519/#gl-AT-access
17:56:47 [sharper]
JR: if you want to say something about have should talk to the platform should go up in 4.1
17:56:55 [JAllan]
+1
17:57:27 [sharper]
GL: s/have/how we should/
17:57:52 [sharper]
s/GL: /
17:58:49 [sharper]
RESOLVED: GL to take this off-line and come up with a structured solution–JR to assist
17:59:38 [Jan]
5.1.1 (former 1.1.1) Non-Web-Based Accessible (Level A) :
17:59:40 [Jan]
Non-Web-based user agent user interfaces comply with and cite the requirements of standards or operating environment conventions that benefit accessibility. (Level A)
18:00:03 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110519/#gl-desktop-access
18:01:56 [JAllan]
action: Greg to write platform vs a11y spec that help accessibility. as part of discussion of 5.3.3 in survey
18:01:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-566 - Write platform vs a11y spec that help accessibility. as part of discussion of 5.3.3 in survey [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-06-09].
18:02:30 [sharper]
topic: 5.3.4 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results#xq4
18:02:54 [sharper]
JS: Agrees with proposal
18:03:05 [sharper]
JR: Perhaps at Level AAA.
18:03:19 [sharper]
JA: This seems to be more of an authoring tool feature. Though UA do have script error consoles and other types of debugging views, so a11y errors could be included in those. on reflection...the various developer and a11y toolbars (Wave and WAT) could meet this. I don't see this rising to the level of a must or should include in a UA to be accessible to users.
18:03:35 [sharper]
GL: If we include it, it'd be easier to read if the inline example were moved to the end of the sentence. Plus they all need unique titles.
18:04:26 [sharper]
JR: related comments - This usage of a user agent is veering into ATAG territory. I wonder if this could be handled by an informative section on how user agents can be part of the authoring process and that browser developers should look at ATAG?
18:04:49 [sharper]
JA: likes this
18:05:00 [sharper]
JS: likes this to
18:05:18 [sharper]
s/to/too
18:06:48 [sharper]
JR: in the informative section we say that user agents are often used by developers flipping between an authoring tool and a user agent and therefore you should also look at the ATAG.
18:07:01 [sharper]
MH: I'm in agreement with Chile are
18:07:13 [sharper]
s/Chile are/JR
18:07:49 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:07:59 [sharper]
RESOLVED: JR will take an action on this
18:08:47 [Jan]
Action: JR to create a section in the Intro explaining that user agents can be used in authoring processes and that therefore user agents developers should look at ATAG.
18:08:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-567 - Create a section in the Intro explaining that user agents can be used in authoring processes and that therefore user agents developers should look at ATAG. [on Jan Richards - due 2011-06-09].
18:09:26 [sharper]
KP+1
18:09:31 [sharper]
KF+1
18:09:33 [sharper]
SH+1
18:10:19 [sharper]
RESOLVED: remove 5.3.4 in line with the actions above.
18:10:21 [sharper]
topic: 5.3.5 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results#xq5
18:11:34 [sharper]
JS: accept
18:11:45 [sharper]
JR: Perhaps at AAA? This usage of a user agent is veering into ATAG territory. I wonder if this could be handled by an informative section on how user agents can be part of the authoring process and that browser developers should look at ATAG?
18:11:58 [sharper]
JA: This seems to be more of an authoring tool feature. Though UA do have script error consoles and other types of debugging views, so a11y errors could be included in those. on reflection...the various developer and a11y toolbars (Wave and WAT) could meet this. I don't see this rising to the level of a must or should include in a UA to be accessible to users.
18:12:14 [sharper]
GL: Looks like a duplicate of the proposed 5.3.4?
18:12:31 [sharper]
JA: JR- could you include this in the write-up for 5.3.4
18:13:12 [sharper]
JS: this is to move to a different area where we thought it would be a more appropriate section
18:13:43 [sharper]
RESOLVED: move to part of the introductory statement that JR will write
18:14:05 [sharper]
topic: 5.3.6 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results#xq6
18:14:22 [sharper]
JA: this is already covered in the discussions previously
18:14:39 [sharper]
RESOLVED: no action required
18:14:40 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
18:14:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2, discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110601/results, closed
18:14:42 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:14:43 [Zakim]
3. accessibility issues wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/User_Agent_issues_effecting_A11y [from JAllan]
18:14:47 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
18:14:47 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "accessibility issues wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/User_Agent_issues_effecting_A11y" taken up [from JAllan]
18:16:44 [sharper]
zakim, agenda?
18:16:44 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:16:46 [Zakim]
3. accessibility issues wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/User_Agent_issues_effecting_A11y [from JAllan]
18:23:41 [sharper]
JA: explaining placeholder
18:24:01 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:24:08 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:24:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:30:31 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:30:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:30:53 [Zakim]
-kford
18:31:21 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:32:20 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
18:32:21 [Zakim]
-JAllan
18:32:33 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:32:45 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:33:01 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
18:33:23 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:33:35 [JAllan]
present: jallan, kford, kpatch, mhakkenin, glowney, jspellman, sharper, jrichards
18:33:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:33:57 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-actions.rdf :
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update document to split 5.3.1 to separate content from user interface. See the survey of 2 June. [1]
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-irc#T17-28-33
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Greg to write platform vs a11y spec that help accessibility. as part of discussion of 5.3.3 in survey [2]
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-irc#T18-01-56
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to create a section in the Intro explaining that user agents can be used in authoring processes and that therefore user agents developers should look at ATAG. [3]
18:33:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/02-ua-irc#T18-08-47