IRC log of dap on 2011-06-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:44:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:44:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:44:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:44:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:44:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:44:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
13:44:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
13:44:20 [trackbot]
Date: 01 June 2011
13:44:45 [fjh_]
Regrets+ Claes_Nilsson
13:45:34 [fjh]
13:46:19 [fjh]
Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
13:46:23 [fjh]
Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
13:49:42 [darobin]
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13:50:52 [DKA]
DKA has joined #dap
13:52:42 [fjh]
Regrets+ Niklas_Widell
13:53:44 [fjh]
zakim, code?
13:53:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), fjh
13:56:09 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:56:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.214.aaaa
13:57:15 [Zakim]
13:57:55 [fjh]
zakim, ?? is me
13:57:55 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
13:58:33 [fjh]
zakim, aaaa is bryan
13:58:33 [Zakim]
+bryan; got it
13:59:33 [fjh]
Topic: Administrative
14:00:02 [lgombos]
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14:00:39 [Zakim]
14:00:47 [Kyungtak]
Kyungtak has joined #dap
14:00:54 [DKA]
zakim, mute me
14:00:54 [Zakim]
DKA should now be muted
14:00:57 [Zakim]
14:00:57 [Zakim]
14:00:59 [DKA]
zakim, unmute me
14:00:59 [Zakim]
DKA should no longer be muted
14:01:05 [DKA]
zakim, mute me
14:01:05 [Zakim]
DKA should now be muted
14:01:14 [dom]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
14:01:15 [Zakim]
14:01:24 [darobin]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
14:01:24 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
14:01:24 [lgombos]
Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
14:01:38 [DKA]
Present+ Daniel_Appelquist
14:01:42 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
14:01:47 [Kyungtak]
Present+ Kyung-Tak_Lee
14:01:53 [Zakim]
14:02:05 [AnssiK]
zakim, ??P15 is me
14:02:05 [Zakim]
+AnssiK; got it
14:02:14 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:02:31 [AnssiK]
zakim, who's on the call
14:02:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the call', AnssiK
14:02:46 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bryan, fjh, DKA (muted), Dom, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, AnssiK
14:02:46 [AnssiK]
zakim, who's here
14:02:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see AnssiK, Kyungtak, lgombos, DKA, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh_, fjh, richt, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot
14:02:51 [Zakim]
AnssiK, you need to end that query with '?'
14:03:40 [Zakim]
+ +
14:04:09 [Dzung_Tran]
Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
14:04:11 [fjh]
zakim, aabb is wonsuk
14:04:11 [Zakim]
+wonsuk; got it
14:04:14 [Dzung_Tran]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
14:04:33 [dom]
Zakim, aabb is wonsuk_lee
14:04:33 [Zakim]
sorry, dom, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
14:04:34 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #dap
14:04:38 [AnssiK]
ScribeNick: AnssiK
14:04:48 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: Anssi rocks
14:04:49 [dom]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
14:04:52 [dom]
14:04:52 [fjh]
zakim, wonsuk is wonsuk_lee
14:04:52 [Zakim]
+wonsuk_lee; got it
14:04:53 [Zakim]
14:05:00 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bryan, fjh, DKA (muted), Dom, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, AnssiK, wonsuk_lee, richt
14:05:01 [richt]
Present+ Rich_Tibbett
14:05:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Cathy, Dzung_Tran, AnssiK, Kyungtak, lgombos, DKA, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh_, fjh, richt, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot
14:05:17 [Cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
14:05:24 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements
14:05:25 [wonsuk]
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14:05:27 [fjh]
19-21 July F2F logistics,
14:05:34 [AnssiK]
fjh: F2F is in July, please register
14:05:34 [fjh]
Please register -
14:05:46 [fjh]
14:05:46 [fjh]
14:05:46 [fjh]
14:05:48 [AnssiK]
... chartering is on its way
14:05:55 [AnssiK]
... AC reps are looking at it as we speak
14:05:58 [fjh]
DAP and Web RTC
14:05:58 [fjh]
14:06:05 [AnssiK]
... WebRTC and DAP chairs met recently
14:06:29 [AnssiK]
Dom: WebRTC will be dealing with the media streaming, DAP will handle the media recording
14:06:35 [Zakim]
14:06:39 [AnssiK]
... we could get inspiration from them
14:06:43 [fjh]
2nd Last Call DOM Events, end 28 June
14:06:43 [fjh]
14:06:45 [AnssiK]
fjh: DOM3 Events LC
14:06:53 [AnssiK]
... any other announcements?
14:07:07 [wonsuk]
14:07:29 [AnssiK]
darobin: web perf WG is about to release couple of things
14:07:43 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Minutes approval
14:07:47 [fjh]
14:08:02 [AnssiK]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 25 May 2011 are approved
14:08:08 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: TAG minimization draft
14:08:18 [DKA]
zakim, unmute me
14:08:18 [Zakim]
DKA should no longer be muted
14:08:27 [AnssiK]
fjh: I sent some comments
14:08:34 [fjh]
14:08:46 [dom]
Zakim, mute me
14:08:46 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:08:50 [fjh]
14:08:54 [AnssiK]
DKA: thanks for inviting me to call in
14:09:27 [DKA]
14:09:56 [AnssiK]
... I discussed the draft with people in this group and in Geolocation WG and WebApps WG as well last your at the TPAC meeting
14:10:16 [AnssiK]
... Web App Data Minimization is a working title
14:10:23 [AnssiK]
... it's about data minimization really
14:10:29 [dom]
"Data minimization in Web APIs"
14:10:44 [AnssiK]
... the topic spun off of the privacy workshop held in London last year
14:11:24 [AnssiK]
... we were trying to figure out what TAG could do to help in this space
14:11:50 [AnssiK]
... another WS in Boston was held between IAD? and W3C where we pondered the Privacy by Design concept
14:12:10 [AnssiK]
... it is more concrete concept if applied to (web) services
14:12:44 [AnssiK]
... I took an action to talk about the general principles, and how it applied to API design on the Web
14:13:35 [AnssiK]
... it is one concrete essential thing we can do, from TAG perspective
14:14:00 [AnssiK]
... any feedback is useful, schedule: will deliver the next draft by the end of this week
14:14:14 [AnssiK]
... will discuss the draft at the TAG F2F next week in Boston
14:14:29 [AnssiK]
... any feedback sent asap will likely make it into the TAG F2F meeting
14:14:48 [AnssiK]
... that's all folks
14:15:11 [dom]
14:15:13 [AnssiK]
fjh: promoting best practices like this is a good idea
14:15:20 [dom]
ack me
14:15:21 [AnssiK]
... any comments?
14:15:22 [fjh]
ack dom
14:15:49 [AnssiK]
DKA: the doc will become a TAG finding
14:15:54 [AnssiK]
... or a TAG Note
14:16:03 [AnssiK]
... preference: TAG finding
14:16:10 [AnssiK]
... personal preference
14:16:25 [fjh]
+1 to promoting data minimization within W3C and broader community
14:16:25 [AnssiK]
... would like it to be a checklist to check against
14:16:54 [darobin]
q+ to explain things a bit
14:17:04 [dom]
Zakim, mute me
14:17:04 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:17:28 [AnssiK]
fjh: I think creating something around data minimization is useful, but creating a bigger framework would easily get complex
14:17:45 [AnssiK]
DKA: agreed, will start small and let it grow organically
14:17:50 [darobin]
ack me
14:17:50 [Zakim]
darobin, you wanted to explain things a bit
14:18:21 [AnssiK]
DKA: diff TAG Note TAG Finding
14:18:44 [AnssiK]
... I think it could be said that TAG Finding represents something that's part of the Web Arch
14:18:54 [AnssiK]
... more substantial than TAG Notes
14:19:03 [AnssiK]
... like WG Notes
14:19:30 [AnssiK]
... TAG FIndings are not RECs
14:19:47 [dom]
ack me
14:20:30 [AnssiK]
Dom: one of the open questions for me is, which APIs would be affected by this
14:20:49 [AnssiK]
... would this apply to Geoloc WG deliverables
14:21:01 [AnssiK]
... data from sensors vs. user data
14:21:21 [AnssiK]
DKA: cannot diff between data from sensors v. private data
14:21:33 [fjh]
reminder of fingerprinting based on sensor and other information makes most information private in that sense
14:21:42 [AnssiK]
... any data that may interact with UAs
14:21:58 [AnssiK]
Dom: how this principle would apply to accel or battery, for example
14:22:20 [AnssiK]
DKA: accel case: the app should only request info it needs
14:22:27 [fjh]
14:22:32 [AnssiK]
... the API should not return all the information it has
14:22:42 [fjh]
14:22:47 [dom]
-> Device Orientation spec
14:23:02 [Dong-Young_Lee]
Dong-Young_Lee has joined #dap
14:23:06 [AnssiK]
... the could be sensitive info in that info, e.g. your accelerating might imply you are in a train
14:23:18 [AnssiK]
14:23:25 [AnssiK]
s/in that info//
14:23:30 [Dong-Young_Lee]
Present+ Dong-Young_Lee
14:23:40 [AnssiK]
... also data related to health info is very sensitive
14:23:45 [fjh]
The major issue is combining information, e.g. sensor information along with other information, impact on insurance tec
14:23:50 [fjh]
14:23:50 [AnssiK]
... e.g. blood pressure sensors
14:24:04 [darobin]
[I think that the core issue is to think before you spec]
14:24:26 [AnssiK]
... more and more sensitive sensors are added, so it is good to get these principles nailed down soon
14:24:34 [Zakim]
14:24:53 [AnssiK]
darobin: battery status obviously is not privacy sensitive, but each sensor would need to be evaluated against these principles
14:24:54 [Dong-Young_Lee]
zakim, +??P5 is me
14:24:54 [Zakim]
sorry, Dong-Young_Lee, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5'
14:25:08 [dom]
Zakim, ??P5 is Dong-Young_Lee
14:25:08 [Zakim]
+Dong-Young_Lee; got it
14:25:10 [AnssiK]
darobin: any other questions for Dan?
14:25:16 [fjh]
zakim, ?? is dong-young_lee
14:25:16 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named '??'
14:25:41 [Dong-Young_Lee]
zakim, ??P5 is me
14:25:41 [Zakim]
I already had ??P5 as Dong-Young_Lee, Dong-Young_Lee
14:26:18 [AnssiK]
darobin: should other WGs be informed of the work?
14:26:49 [AnssiK]
DKA: e.g. Geolocation WG has privacy on their radar
14:27:19 [AnssiK]
darobin: mention geopriv and Geoloc WG freaks out
14:27:48 [AnssiK]
DKA: thanks for your feedback DAP WG!
14:27:52 [Zakim]
14:28:04 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Contacts
14:28:20 [fjh]
Comments before Last Call, (Suresh)
14:29:02 [dom]
(my comment on using URLs for ContactField.value is still pending I think too)
14:29:13 [AnssiK]
richt: Suresh's comments haven't yet been baked in, other comments are in
14:30:06 [fjh]
suresh suggests propose to drop the fields 'revision', 'gender' and 'timezone'
14:30:13 [AnssiK]
darobin: going though fields to be removed, see the discussion on the ML
14:31:07 [AnssiK]
darobin: Suresh feedback: normative language in non-normative section
14:31:15 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: remove fields revision, gender and timezone from contact interface
14:31:19 [AnssiK]
richt: will fix
14:31:31 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: remove fields revision, gender and timezone from contact interface
14:32:13 [AnssiK]
richt: much based on vCard and PoCo, not so for CAB
14:32:46 [fjh]
an informative reference is not an endorsement is it
14:32:47 [richt]
to be clear, it's not a place to endorse other specifications.
14:32:58 [AnssiK]
darobin: PoCo needs to be in there, some fields reference it
14:33:19 [dom]
ack me
14:33:20 [AnssiK]
fjh: having a reference is not an endorsement, harmless to have extra references
14:33:33 [darobin]
"All properties included in this interface have a corresponding
14:33:35 [darobin]
definition in [POCO-SCHEMA], [IETF vCard], and [OMA CAB], thereby
14:33:36 [darobin]
allowing the API to be supported across implementations supporting these
14:33:38 [darobin]
various contact formats."
14:34:11 [fjh]
s/ is it//
14:34:14 [AnssiK]
Dom: reference needs to be bound to the actual text to be meaninful in the context of a spec
14:34:21 [richt]
will add Suresh's proposed text to the spec
14:34:33 [AnssiK]
darobin: Suresh's feedback processes
14:34:54 [richt]
will drop updatedSince as agreed on mailing list.
14:34:58 [AnssiK]
14:35:07 [dom]
ContactField.value as URLs?
14:35:08 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:35:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
14:36:17 [AnssiK]
Dom: value prop on a contact fields should be URLs instead of free-form DOMString
14:36:25 [AnssiK]
... UA has to normalize the data
14:36:50 [AnssiK]
14:37:00 [AnssiK]
s/a contact/contact/
14:37:28 [AnssiK]
richt: would like to keep it as a DOMString, based on implementation experiences so far
14:37:54 [AnssiK]
dom: having a field which may be free-form or and URL does not help IOP
14:38:03 [AnssiK]
14:38:18 [dom]
dom: maybe we should have both .url and .value properties
14:38:36 [AnssiK]
darobin: looking at the tel: URI scheme
14:38:40 [bryan]
bryan has joined #dap
14:38:49 [AnssiK]
... to find out if it could work
14:38:59 [darobin]
14:39:01 [bryan]
present+ bryan_sullivan
14:39:10 [AnssiK]
... e.g. people who might enter phone numbers like above
14:40:16 [AnssiK]
dom: a picture can be either an URL reference or a base64-encoded data: URI
14:41:12 [AnssiK]
... if you *can* use URLs then you do use them
14:41:22 [AnssiK]
darobin: saving back to vCard?
14:41:26 [AnssiK]
... how does that work out?
14:41:49 [AnssiK]
dom: we don't have functions for creating contacts
14:42:02 [AnssiK]
darobin: there's no spec to reference for normalization
14:42:03 [darobin]
uri = tel:1234;
14:43:00 [AnssiK]
dom: this is a case we need implementors' feedback
14:43:07 [AnssiK]
... but this would be the Right Thing to do
14:43:16 [DKA]
DKA has joined #dap
14:43:35 [darobin]
[are we turning email into mailto: as well?]
14:43:43 [AnssiK]
richt: personal opinion is this may add too much burden on implementers
14:43:56 [AnssiK]
... and complexity
14:44:08 [AnssiK]
... saving back case is an issue too
14:44:13 [darobin]
[I see the value in having URIs handy, but it seems like convenience that can be done in script and could be added transparently in v2]
14:44:20 [AnssiK]
... cannot put restrictions on the fields
14:44:43 [AnssiK]
... at this stage the non-URL way is preferred
14:45:18 [AnssiK]
dom: picture field can take an URL of the pic, or a base64'd version of it as a data: URI
14:45:23 [AnssiK]
darobin: I'm fine with pictures
14:45:37 [darobin]
current = "a URL to an image resource or base64 encoded string of the image data."
14:45:40 [AnssiK]
richt: for pictures makes sense, absolutely
14:45:44 [dom]
14:45:50 [darobin]
new = "a URL to an image resource which may be a data: URL."
14:45:55 [AnssiK]
... need to handle this on case by case basis
14:45:56 [dom]
and urls?
14:46:26 [AnssiK]
... but for tel it is harder
14:47:22 [AnssiK]
dom: not sure the proposed new URL JS object is doing normalization as discussed above
14:47:47 [AnssiK]
richt: two ways: keep DOMString
14:48:01 [AnssiK]
... base the field on URL, which enforces URL behaviour
14:48:31 [richt]
we can base the field on a URL constructor or enforce it on DOMStrings. Both have different implications.
14:49:31 [dom]
-> feedback on contactfield as urls
14:50:01 [AnssiK]
darobin: return this to the list
14:50:16 [AnssiK]
... no decision time now it seems
14:50:33 [Zakim]
14:50:59 [dom]
I was about to say: we're already relying on HTML5, Web IDL, which have schedule problems of their own
14:51:09 [darobin]
Agreed upon = 1) dropping gender, timezone, revision; 2) AppB all informative; 3) add Suresh's sentence with OMA CAB; 4) remove updatedSince
14:51:19 [Zakim]
14:51:21 [AnssiK]
richt: pending for a proposal for backwards compatibility?
14:51:26 [AnssiK]
... delay publishing?
14:51:51 [AnssiK]
darobin: the URL "spec" is not scheduled for publishing?
14:52:04 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to figure status of URL object in JavaScript in Web Apps
14:52:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-402 - Figure status of URL object in JavaScript in Web Apps [on Dominique Hazaƫl-Massieux - due 2011-06-08].
14:52:13 [AnssiK]
... thought WebApps wanted to take it but they couldn't (too many deliverables already)
14:53:26 [AnssiK]
darobin: TODOs: resolve URL thing, once done LC ready
14:53:43 [AnssiK]
richt: good for me
14:53:46 [richt]
14:54:02 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Battery Status
14:54:04 [fjh]
Editors draft updated, (Anssi)
14:54:05 [fjh]
14:54:05 [fjh]
coordination, (Robin)
14:54:27 [darobin]
[that coordination link belongs to Contacts actually!]
14:54:32 [darobin]
AnssiK: I have baked in all the changes
14:54:39 [AnssiK]
14:54:57 [darobin]
AnssiK: if you read this and dislike something, please simply send me email
14:55:03 [fjh]
14:55:05 [AnssiK]
14:55:12 [fjh]
s/[that coordination.*//
14:55:20 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:55:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
14:55:37 [darobin]
robin: new WD?
14:55:41 [darobin]
AnssiK: agreed
14:55:59 [fjh]
+1 to updated wd
14:56:23 [wonsuk]
+1 for republish updated wd
14:57:03 [Zakim]
14:57:11 [dom]
ISSUE: Should (some of the) ContactField objects use URLs rather than free-form strings?
14:57:11 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-111 - Should (some of the) ContactField objects use URLs rather than free-form strings? ; please complete additional details at .
14:57:14 [darobin]
AnssiK: need to define how events are triggered in such a way that they are testable; express [???] in IDL; and define "immediately" properly
14:57:43 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: New WD heartbeat for Battery, and start preparing for LC afterwards
14:57:55 [darobin]
ACTION: publish Battery heartbeat
14:57:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - publish
14:57:56 [AnssiK]
s/???/onbatterystatus event handler/
14:58:00 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to publish Battery heartbeat
14:58:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-403 - Publish Battery heartbeat [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-06-08].
14:58:16 [AnssiK]
14:58:21 [AnssiK]
there's the latest ED
14:58:30 [darobin]
coordination email to Geo:
14:58:57 [AnssiK]
darobin: not a blocker for LC
14:59:07 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Network Information
14:59:30 [AnssiK]
darobin: we could publish it right away
14:59:40 [AnssiK]
... would like people to take a look at it and send their +1s
14:59:53 [dom]
+1 on publishing
15:00:06 [AnssiK]
darobin: if no issues, we'll go to FPWD
15:00:08 [fjh]
15:00:18 [wonsuk]
+1 to publish
15:00:26 [AnssiK]
dom: only issue, privacy sensitive network name
15:00:36 [fjh]
15:00:38 [AnssiK]
darobin: should we keep it or remove it?
15:00:55 [fjh]
+1 to Dom, removing the privacy sensitive item
15:01:07 [AnssiK]
dom: prefer to remove networkName
15:01:13 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to remove networkName from Netinfo
15:01:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-404 - Remove networkName from Netinfo [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-06-08].
15:01:17 [AnssiK]
darobin: happy to remove it
15:01:24 [Zakim]
15:01:30 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to move NetInfo to FPWD
15:01:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-405 - Move NetInfo to FPWD [on Robin Berjon - due 2011-06-08].
15:01:38 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Feature Request Access Containers
15:01:44 [darobin]
15:01:48 [AnssiK]
darobin: heads up
15:01:52 [AnssiK]
... no feedback so far
15:01:57 [AnssiK]
15:02:03 [darobin]
ack AnssiK
15:02:08 [fjh]
action: fjh to review feature request access containers
15:02:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-406 - Review feature request access containers [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-06-08].
15:02:45 [AnssiK]
AnssiK: any discussion on moz labs?
15:02:52 [darobin]
15:02:57 [AnssiK]
darobin: not much in public, some private
15:03:13 [AnssiK]
... also in web security
15:03:46 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: HTML Media Capture
15:03:59 [fjh] (Dom)
15:03:59 [fjh] (Wonsuk)
15:04:05 [AnssiK]
darobin: discussed in HTML WG
15:04:14 [AnssiK]
... also feedback / questions from Wonsuk
15:04:53 [AnssiK]
s/also in/also discussed in/
15:05:31 [AnssiK]
Wonsuk: the scope of the capture would need to be clarified
15:05:35 [AnssiK]
... will come back later
15:05:42 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Other
15:05:54 [AnssiK]
darobin: any other specs?
15:06:10 [Zakim]
15:06:17 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
15:06:26 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:06:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fjh
15:06:29 [Zakim]
15:06:31 [Zakim]
15:06:35 [Zakim]
15:06:41 [Zakim]
15:06:43 [darobin]
RRSAgent: stop