16:49:15 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:49:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc 16:49:30 Zakim has joined #tagmem 16:50:20 Zakim, this will be TAG_Weekly 16:50:20 ok, JeniT; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 16:50:58 Topic: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/26-agenda 16:51:27 Scribe: Jeni Tennison 16:52:02 ScribeNick: JeniT 16:52:43 Meeting: W3C TAG Teleconference of 26 May 2011 16:52:57 Chair: Noah Mendelsohn 16:53:04 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/26-agenda 16:59:56 Ashok has joined #tagmem 17:00:17 noah has joined #tagmem 17:00:18 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started 17:00:26 +??P0 17:00:27 DKA has joined #tagmem 17:00:37 zakim, who is here? 17:00:38 On the phone I see ??P0 17:00:40 On IRC I see DKA, noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, JeniT, ht, plinss_, Yves, trackbot 17:00:45 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:00:46 Zakim, ??P0 is me 17:00:47 +JeniT; got it 17:01:00 zakim, noah_mendelsohn is me 17:01:00 +noah; got it 17:01:12 +DKA 17:01:21 +Masinter 17:01:25 ahoy-hoy 17:01:55 zakim, who is here? 17:01:55 On the phone I see JeniT, noah, DKA, Masinter 17:01:57 On IRC I see DKA, noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, JeniT, ht, plinss_, Yves, trackbot 17:02:05 Larry has joined #tagmem 17:02:16 agenda? 17:02:23 +??P2 17:02:30 zakim, ? is me 17:02:30 +ht; got it 17:02:40 Topic: Convene 17:02:43 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:02:52 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/26-agenda 17:03:02 zakim, who is here? 17:03:02 On the phone I see JeniT, noah, DKA, Masinter, ht, Ashok_Malhotra 17:03:03 On IRC I see Larry, DKA, noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, JeniT, ht, plinss_, Yves, trackbot 17:03:35 + +1.650.294.aaaa 17:03:35 +Yves 17:03:41 Noah: Approval of minutes? 17:03:56 topic: Approval of minutes 17:04:00 May 5: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes 17:04:02 zakim, aaaa is jar 17:04:02 +jar; got it 17:04:24 RESOLUTION: Minutes of 5 May 2011 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes are approved. 17:04:33 May 12: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/12-minutes 17:04:45 RESOLUTION: Minutes of 12 May 2011 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/12-minutes 17:04:52 Topic: Administrative Items 17:05:09 noah: Please tell me about summer schedules 17:05:27 noah: HTML5 has just gone to last call, due date for comments August 3rd 17:05:39 ... we have been specifically asked for TAG review 17:06:31 ... Should we have telcon next week? 17:06:51 ... Hold time for now, and I will try to cancel if we can 17:07:16 I cannot make a June 2 telecon 17:07:31 ... Regrets for June 2 17:08:30 Topic: HTML5 Last Call 17:08:54 noah: in the agenda is a link to a press release 17:09:04 Press release: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/html5lc-pr.html.en 17:10:30 ... there should be a mail somewhere but I haven't found it 17:10:31 q+ to talk about "language reference" 17:11:05 q+ to discuss prioritizing TAG topics to "architectural" issues 17:11:18 noah: when we met 2 weeks ago, DKA and ht volunteered to review selected items 17:11:26 ... DKA to review with an eye toward mobile 17:11:52 I think the TAG should give priority to helping resolve review comments from other W3C working groups and other standards organizations 17:12:01 DKA: I'm confused about language reference: was it previously the TAG's view that the language reference should be a normative document? 17:12:11 ... it's non-normative in this last call 17:12:26 noah: There are two documents, one by Mike Smith which is non-normative 17:12:35 ... what should be normative is the author-only view of the main spec 17:13:18 ... let me ask chairs about where that stands 17:14:03 DKA: The spec has a link to the 'web-developer edition' 17:14:17 noah: it does say it's non-normative 17:14:21 ACTION: Noah to follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ 17:14:22 Created ACTION-555 - Follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-02]. 17:15:14 ACTION: Noah to follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ is not normative 17:15:14 Created ACTION-556 - Follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ is not normative [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-02]. 17:15:51 close ACTION-555 17:15:51 ACTION-555 Follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ closed 17:15:58 noah: the web-author view is generated from the same source as the main spec 17:16:08 ... we said that was an acceptable compromise 17:16:27 ... The TAG's position was that if this was published as normative, we're OK with it. 17:16:37 The IANA registration says the "Published specification" is "This document" but appears in both the language reference document and the main document 17:16:57 noah: DKA, are you looking to review things from the perspective of mobile? 17:17:35 DKA: Yes, specifically app cache stuff, to the extent that's still in the spec 17:18:12 noah: What should the TAG's top priorities be for this last call? 17:18:47 q? 17:19:10 q? 17:19:23 ht: I was going to review the list of acceptable strings within the DOCTYPE. 17:19:45 ... I want to review carefully the description of prefix binding. 17:20:21 ack next 17:20:23 ack next 17:20:23 DKA, you wanted to talk about "language reference" 17:20:28 Larry, you wanted to discuss prioritizing TAG topics to "architectural" issues 17:20:29 q- 17:20:52 masinter: I think we should prioritise comments from other Working Groups and standards groups 17:21:16 I'm sympathetic, but we need a process for doing that. Are you available to review those comments? 17:21:23 ... We could communicate this to other groups that are commenting on the spec, that we would help if they want help. 17:21:43 noah: There are some comments that are being carried forward, and there will be more as last call proceeds. 17:24:25 Larry: I'm suggesting we should give higher priority to topics suggested by others rather than within the TAG. 17:24:41 q? 17:24:48 q+ jar to agree with lm 17:24:53 +1 to requests from WGs 17:24:59 q? 17:25:03 ack next 17:25:05 jar, you wanted to agree with lm 17:25:09 JAR: I agree with Larry. 17:25:18 ht: I agree wrt W3C Working Groups. 17:25:50 noah: We could leave this in the minutes, and perhaps a WG will turn up and ask for help 17:25:57 ... or we could reach out and tell people? 17:26:07 Larry: Note to the WG chairs 17:26:43 noah: Let's get consensus over such a note. 17:29:20 . ACTION: Larry to draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org 17:30:34 ACTION: Larry to draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org 17:30:34 Created ACTION-557 - Draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-06-02]. 17:31:03 noah: There's a lot that we have no one assigned to read or comment on. 17:31:33 Jeni: Is microdata part of last call. 17:31:36 Yves: yes 17:31:37 http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/ 17:31:47 http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-microdata-20110525/ 17:32:35 ACTION: Jeni to review Microdata last call Due 2011-06-06 17:32:35 Created ACTION-558 - Review Microdata last call Due 2011-06-06 [on Jeni Tennison - due 2011-06-02]. 17:33:15 NM: F2F session on HTML5 last call? 17:33:56 noah: Anyone else? 17:34:06 HTML5 17:34:06 HTML+RDFa 1.1 17:34:06 HTML Microdata 17:34:06 HTML Canvas 2D Context 17:34:06 Polyglot Markup: HTML-Compatible XHTML Documents 17:34:06 HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives 17:35:07 ACTION: Jeni to review HTML+RDfa last call Due 2011-06-06 17:35:08 Created ACTION-559 - Review HTML+RDfa last call Due 2011-06-06 [on Jeni Tennison - due 2011-06-02]. 17:35:27 JAR: Discussion time may be useful 17:35:30 JAR: I predict we'll be able to make good use of discussion time at the F2F 17:36:03 noah: Let's see what the other things are that we want to talk about at the F2F. 17:36:19 that is, specifically about RDFa and microdata, even if we're not all really well prepared 17:36:44 noah: I think we should look at Polyglot. 17:36:54 polyglot should indeed be on the reading list 17:36:57 +1 to us commenting on polyglot 17:36:58 ht: There's been a long thread in xml-dev about it. 17:37:01 +1 17:37:06 http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/ 17:38:08 ACTION: Henry to review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 17:38:09 Created ACTION-560 - Review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 [on Henry Thompson - due 2011-06-02]. 17:38:30 http://www.w3.org/TR/html-alt-techniques/ 17:39:06 noah: Does alt text relate to accessibility? 17:39:13 ... is this a priority? 17:39:14 Here's the xml-dev thread on polyglot: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201105/msg00128.html 17:39:46 Larry: Maybe there's a meta-issue about the proper working group for this document. 17:40:33 ht: The chairs have said they're going to last call without the accessibility area nailed down. 17:41:43 Larry: I'd like to read it wrt is this the right way to specify accessibility techniques. 17:42:54 Larry: IETF have documents about internationalisation, security, privacy etc 17:43:05 ... W3C has a group that handles accessibility. 17:43:33 ... What guidelines should we give for expressing these techniques: should they be normative? how do we deal with contradictions? 17:44:25 noah: These folks have been wrestling with this for years. 17:45:09 I think that the main function of the tag is to "go meta" 17:45:11 ... They went to last call; no one is asking us to go meta; how are we going to get these large documents reviewed? 17:45:40 Larry: I think we could do this in 15 minutes. 17:46:59 q? 17:47:15 DKA: I was at the AC meeting last week, there was a lot of controversy around HTML5 17:47:21 I think you can "go meta" in 15 minutes, it's not necessarily an endless task, but 15 minutes isn't optimal 17:47:29 ... Paul Cotton stated he expected it to go to 2nd/3rd Last Call 17:47:47 ... There are a bunch of open issues, a lot to do with accessibility, a lot of controversy around those issues. 17:48:33 I think the issue really has to do with disagreement about how accessibility techniques are made normative, and that commenting specifically on the meta-issue would be appropriate for the TAG 17:48:43 s|Paul Cotton stated he expected it to go to 2nd/3rd Last Call|| 17:49:10 Topic: F2F Agenda Review 17:49:23 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/11F2FAgendaPlanning.html 17:49:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html Yves 17:50:17 noah: Let's read through rapidly, and then we'll go back over 17:50:49 ... First establish top priorities. 17:51:10 ... Commit to 2/3 deliverables. 17:51:15 shouldn't HTML5 topics be a "Top Priority" of the F2F? 17:51:26 ... Move client-side state to publication. 17:52:00 I'd give technical topics a higher priority than "align product pages", which is a task in service 17:52:36 Larry: The third topic is not a technical priority, and I'd give technical topics a priority. 17:52:55 q+ to ask about the XML/HTML report wrt its previous state 17:53:08 noah: I'll make note with HTML5 as a priority. 17:53:21 ... Starting to make list of required reading. 17:54:12 noah: Is ACTION-531 going to be ready for the F2F? 17:54:25 Larry: Having trouble getting input from other people. 17:54:49 q+ ht2 to ask for 1/2 a slot to discuss 3023bis and IRIbis status 17:54:49 noah: We will have some administration. 17:55:02 well, I haven't pushed hard on Philippe and Thomas, but i imagine they're busy with HTML5 and Privacy 17:55:07 noah: General Topics 17:55:27 q+ jar to get a word in edgewise 17:55:36 ... Discussed having lunch with Jim to see what he has to say. 17:56:28 ... Scope is that HTTP is not designed properly to run on these network stacks, so we have serious work to do to rework HTTP. 17:56:40 +1 17:57:08 noah: IAB telcon while we're at the F2F 17:57:37 ... ACTION-549 on Larry/Henry/Yves to create agenda 17:58:39 noah: Copyright & deep linking 18:00:12 JeniT: Would like to go through document 18:00:28 ... and identify places where TAG has opinion about impact of legal decisions 18:00:39 q+ to strongly urge avoiding recommending legal positions, and instead document customary & ordinary practice 18:00:56 ... dated version of document will be done shortly and email sent to Noah. 18:01:50 larry, we've been over that ground. the tag is unanimous in not wanting to give legal opinion. this goes without saying 18:02:03 noah: Privacy 18:02:14 not what JeniT said 18:02:43 Larry, I'm not saying make legal recommendations at all... 18:03:11 Larry, I'm saying as we discussed and agreed a few weeks ago, stating the technical impact of particular legal decisions that governments and lawyers could make. 18:04:10 DKA: We should read Privacy Report and try to understand impact. 18:04:38 noah: Ashok, could you lead us in discussion on privacy workshop? 18:04:59 Ashok: Yes 18:05:02 q? 18:05:22 ... This is a large and complicated topic, do-not-track is one aspect of it. 18:05:43 ... Need to also talk about Dan's stuff on minimisation etc. 18:05:55 q? 18:05:59 q+ 18:06:35 ack next 18:06:37 ht, you wanted to ask about the XML/HTML report wrt its previous state 18:07:08 ht: We reviewed XML/HTML report last F2F, talked about it with Norm, quick look it doesn't look changed -- can we find out how much it's changed? 18:07:15 ACTION: Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML 18:07:15 Sorry, couldn't find user - Norm 18:07:22 ACTION: Noah to ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML 18:07:22 Created ACTION-561 - Ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-02]. 18:07:40 noah: I think the report has come since the last F2F. 18:07:49 ack next 18:07:50 ht2, you wanted to ask for 1/2 a slot to discuss 3023bis and IRIbis status 18:08:24 ht: Need to know about what to do about 3023bis, XML Core is getting antsy. 18:08:41 ACTION: Henry to organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis 18:08:41 Created ACTION-562 - Organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis [on Henry Thompson - due 2011-06-02]. 18:08:43 ack next 18:08:45 jar, you wanted to get a word in edgewise 18:09:46 jar: On Issue-27 -- I'm not asking for F2F time necessarily on this. 18:10:35 ... Also, most of my time since last F2F has been on Issue-57 18:10:47 ... Would be nice to have a bit of feedback from the TAG on it. 18:10:49 issue-57? 18:10:49 ISSUE-57 -- Mechanisms for obtaining information about the meaning of a given URI -- open 18:10:49 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/57 18:11:11 HST leaving 18:11:18 -ht 18:11:33 jar: There's a document that's in draft to read. 18:13:00 noah: DKA: Can you keep in mind ACTION-460 18:13:17 q? 18:13:35 ack next 18:13:37 Larry, you wanted to strongly urge avoiding recommending legal positions, and instead document customary & ordinary practice 18:13:42 replace "JAR hopes to have an ISSUE-57 document" with "JAR will have an ISSUE-57 document" 18:13:47 ack next 18:14:15 DKA: Hopping back to Ashok's comment on privacy and do-not-track, but think it might be most timely way that we can focus attention at the F2F. 18:14:35 q? 18:14:37 ... We could provide some input into the process. 18:14:58 Ashok: We're in agreement. 18:15:13 noah: HTML/XML Unification 18:15:30 ... Assume we do want to discuss this, unless there's not much new. 18:15:43 ... Web Apps 18:16:09 ... Should be new draft on client-side state, big priority to complete that. 18:16:23 ... API minimisation 18:16:41 DKA: On agenda on DEP(?) call next week 18:16:59 ... better draft going to be last minute thing, but it's a small document. 18:17:45 ACTION-514 Due 2011-06-03 18:17:45 ACTION-514 Draft finding on API minimization due date now 2011-06-03 18:17:46 s/DEP(?)/DAP/ 18:18:16 noah: Interaction (ACTION-537) 18:18:35 DKA: Not time to do this. 18:18:48 ACTION-537 Due 2011-07-15 18:18:48 ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction due date now 2011-07-15 18:19:04 noah: Packaged Web Apps 18:19:46 DKA: Probably nothing to comment on until later in the summer. 18:20:17 noah: F2F is opportunity for you to explain the issues? 18:20:33 DKA: Maybe 20 minutes talking about the different approaches? 18:20:45 ... Fits in with HTML5 review, because one approach is app cache. 18:21:11 noah: Security 18:21:25 ... Our expertise is spotty. 18:21:43 ... John Kemp started something, Larry took it on. 18:22:26 Larry: I need to get hold of John Kemp. 18:23:18 noah: Security is even worse than privacy. 18:23:31 ... We were educating ourselves on perma-cookies etc. 18:23:49 ... Should we have a session and brainstorm? 18:23:49 q? 18:24:25 DKA: Would be useful to a TAG statement on the web security model. 18:24:32 q+ to talk about IETF websec 18:24:37 noah: No one has stepped up to do this. 18:24:58 Larry: There's a websec WG with chairs and agendas 18:25:20 noah: Thomas Roessler is supposed to be heading W3C's security agenda. 18:25:27 where is the W3C security work in the process? 18:25:54 jar: Web security model is basically CORS, and we're waiting for their Last Call, and they haven't done a heartbeat for a year. 18:26:15 Larry: This needs to be an action item for the web security group in W3C. 18:26:33 noah: Does the TAG have a stake in this? 18:26:51 s/Web security model/if Web security model/ 18:27:15 s/and we're waiting/then we're waiting/ 18:27:38 Larry: Nothing on the F2F, I'll work on getting something into the WG. 18:27:56 ack 18:28:00 q? 18:28:03 ack Larry 18:28:03 Larry, you wanted to talk about IETF websec 18:28:37 noah: Fragment IDs inc. #! and RDFa 18:28:47 ... Action on Jeni & JAR 18:29:30 JeniT: I will draft something for JAR. 18:29:43 noah: Dropping Issue-27 for F2F 18:30:04 noah: Persistence of references 18:30:19 JAR: I'm not going to have a draft finding but I will have some stuff to present and talk about 18:30:34 ... Probably not until a few days before. 18:30:58 -DKA 18:31:16 noah: Not planning to schedule... ACTION-531 18:31:35 ... similarly ACTION-543 18:32:07 I owe action on mime-web 18:32:21 noah: ACTION-510 18:32:32 action-510? 18:32:32 ACTION-510 -- Tim Berners-Lee to write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN 18:32:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510 18:32:45 noah: JeniT should look into ACTION-510 18:33:13 Larry: Perhaps we could meet with Jeff in Boston? Perhaps Thomas? 18:33:21 ... other W3C staff members? 18:33:56 how about Sandro for issue-57 ? 18:35:04 noah: Larry, please see if you can get W3C people involved to talk about registeries 18:35:58 ... Happy to invite Sandro. 18:36:30 ... Will try for more formal agenda for next Tue/Wed 18:36:47 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:37:06 -Yves 18:37:20 noah: Adjourned 18:37:22 -noah 18:37:23 -Masinter 18:37:27 -JeniT 18:37:29 -jar 18:37:29 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:37:30 Attendees were JeniT, noah, DKA, Masinter, ht, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.650.294.aaaa, Yves, jar 18:40:05 zakim, bye 18:40:05 Zakim has left #tagmem 18:40:41 Present: JeniT, noah, DKA, Masinter, ht, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.650.294.aaaa, Yves, jar 18:41:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:41:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-minutes.html JeniT 18:42:11 rrsagent, bye 18:42:53 rrsagent, make log public 18:43:03 rrsagent, bye 18:43:03 I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-actions.rdf : 18:43:03 ACTION: Noah to follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ [1] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T17-14-21 18:43:03 ACTION: Noah to follow up with HTML WG chairs as to why http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/author/ is not normative [2] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T17-15-14 18:43:03 ACTION: Larry to draft note for chairs list on TAG interest in hearing of architectural issues and comments relating to HTML5...draft to be sent to tag@w3.org [3] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T17-30-34 18:43:03 ACTION: Jeni to review Microdata last call Due 2011-06-06 [4] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T17-32-35 18:43:03 ACTION: Jeni to review HTML+RDfa last call Due 2011-06-06 [5] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T17-35-07 18:43:03 ACTION: Henry to review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 [6] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T17-38-08 18:43:03 ACTION: Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML [7] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T18-07-15 18:43:03 ACTION: Noah to ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML [8] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T18-07-22 18:43:03 ACTION: Henry to organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis [9] 18:43:03 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-tagmem-irc#T18-08-41