21:26:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:26:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/25-html-a11y-irc
21:26:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
21:26:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
21:26:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
21:26:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
21:26:15 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:26:15 <trackbot> Date: 25 May 2011
21:26:41 <janina> zakim, agenda?
21:26:41 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
21:27:11 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:27:11 <janina> Chair:  Janina_Sajka
21:27:11 <janina> agenda: this
21:27:11 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:27:11 <janina> agenda+ Clean Audio: What shall WE call it?
21:27:11 <janina> agenda+ Paused Media: Continuing Discussion
21:27:13 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:27:15 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
21:27:18 <janina> agenda+ be done
21:27:19 <janina>  
21:27:27 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has now started
21:27:34 <Zakim> +??P1
21:27:43 <janina> zakim, ??P1 is Janina
21:27:43 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
21:28:10 <Zakim> +Sean
21:31:26 <janina> regrets: John_Foliot, Marc_Watson
21:32:03 <Zakim> +silvia
21:33:36 <Zakim> +Judy
21:34:18 <silvia> scribe: silvia
21:34:48 <silvia> next item
21:35:05 <janina> zakim, close item 1
21:35:05 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
21:35:06 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:35:08 <Zakim> 2. Clean Audio: What shall WE call it? [from janina]
21:35:13 <janina> zakim, next item
21:35:13 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Clean Audio: What shall WE call it?" taken up [from janina]
21:35:37 <Zakim> +Eric
21:36:56 <Sean_> Sean_ has joined #html-a11y
21:37:33 <silvia> zakim, mute me
21:37:33 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
21:38:10 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
21:38:41 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
21:38:41 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
21:45:38 <silvia> discussion about what the tracks are
21:46:05 <silvia> one type is a multi-channel mix in one track, where one channel has speech-only
21:46:17 <silvia> such a track is an alternative to main audio
21:46:37 <silvia> another type is an additional track that contains only speech and can be increased in volume over other tracks
21:46:48 <silvia> proposal is that we may need both
21:47:09 <silvia> however there is not enough real-world use case knowledge in the group to validate the use case
21:47:25 <silvia> we will seek further input from experts before making a decision
21:47:36 <silvia> zakim, close item 2
21:47:36 <Zakim> agendum 2, Clean Audio: What shall WE call it?, closed
21:47:37 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:47:39 <Zakim> 3. Paused Media: Continuing Discussion [from janina]
21:48:18 <silvia> janina: last week we seemed to have a solution for how to appropriately mark up alternative text, both short and long for video
21:48:32 <silvia> including poster
21:48:48 <silvia> both for graphical and non-graphical browsers
21:48:55 <silvia> I took it to PF today
21:49:23 <silvia> for example to find out if we retain language markup
21:49:39 <silvia> and the answer is: yes - the markup is retained for elements, but not for attributes
21:51:12 <silvia> however, if you go into a non-graphical browsing mode, I'm not sure we are safe
21:52:17 <silvia> eric: a non-graphical browser would not support the video element and thus should take the fallback inside it
21:53:57 <silvia> silvia: a lynx developer seemed to indicate that once a non-graphical browser supports html5, it would not display the content inside the video element
21:54:25 <silvia> instead it would compose such text from the video element's attributes
21:54:41 <silvia> I am not even sure we should be discussing this here in the a11y TF, but it's an issue for the larger group
21:55:14 <silvia> eric: it would then also have to support the aria attributes so it should have enough information from aria-describedby as we have suggested it
21:55:39 <silvia> janina: what are the next steps? need to discuss in the wider community?
21:55:46 <silvia> I wanted to introduce it into WAI today
21:56:38 <silvia> sean, eric: seems a fine solution
21:58:33 <silvia> silvia: the issue that John indicated was that when aria-describedby points to structured markup, screenreaders currently just read it out as text
21:58:56 <silvia> when it should in fact be read out as structured markup, e.g. including URLs
21:59:21 <silvia> Janina: yes, PF also agrees with this and screenreaders need to start interpreting such text correctly
22:00:07 <silvia> next step should be to get this information out more widely so we get good information on that
22:01:16 <silvia> janina: should this go into the HTML5 spec and / or into the HTML a11y User Agent implementation guide
22:01:44 <silvia> silvia: there is no spec change necessary for HTML5, but it might be good to add an example into it to get the approach in front of more eyes
22:02:29 <silvia> eric: what we need to explain to people is how aria-describeby works
22:03:17 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504
22:03:36 <janina> sorry wrong ...
22:04:26 <janina> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-alt-techniques/
22:04:50 <silvia> it should probably go into the HTML alt techniques document
22:05:16 <silvia> janina: we also want it in the user agent guide, too
22:05:26 <silvia> in particular that that level of markup should be supported
22:05:40 <silvia> e.g. that uris need to be interpreted
22:06:02 <silvia> eric, silvia: sounds fine by me
22:06:12 <silvia> janina: will forward it in both cases
22:07:46 <silvia> silvia: the only thing that we may need a change proposal for, if we still want it, is the @transcript attribute
22:08:15 <silvia> it could be replaced by a @longdesc attribute as a means to link to a full transcript
22:08:26 <silvia> sean: I think they are semantically different
22:09:33 <silvia> silvia: instead we can just have it inside the aria-describedby markup just like we have it for the poster long description
22:09:58 <silvia> <video src="file.mp4" poster="poster.png" aria-describedby="posteralt videosummary" aria-label="MyPlayer video player">
22:09:58 <silvia>   <p id="videosummary">A Clockwork Orange Trailer (<a href="transcript.html">Transcript</a>)</p>
22:09:58 <silvia>   <p id="posteralt">Poster frame is a clockwork orange movie poster (<a href="posterlongdesc.html">long description</a>)</p>
22:09:58 <silvia>   <p><a href="file.mp4">Download the video file</a></p>
22:09:58 <silvia> </video>
22:12:30 <silvia> there is a lot of indirection now
22:12:39 <silvia> sean: is the fallback content even in the dom?
22:12:44 <silvia> eric, silvia: yes it is
22:14:26 <silvia> sean: with this markup, there is no semantic markup that a machine can rely on to interprete as the transcript
22:14:31 <silvia> the user has no way to get at that content
22:15:35 <silvia> silvia: yes, an attribute @transcript would allow creating a context menu item for users
22:16:12 <silvia> so do we want to start a discussion in the larger HTML5 group about introducing such an attribute?
22:16:57 <silvia> I can start such an email discussion on public-html
22:17:05 <silvia> janina: yes
22:17:10 <silvia> … general agreement
22:18:10 <silvia> ACTION: janina to work with authors of HTML alt techniques document and HTML a11y user agent implementation guide to add the aria-describedby video example there
22:18:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-127 - Work with authors of HTML alt techniques document and HTML a11y user agent implementation guide to add the aria-describedby video example there [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-06-01].
22:18:29 <silvia> ACTION: silvia to follow-up on @transcript attribute
22:18:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-128 - Follow-up on @transcript attribute [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2011-06-01].
22:18:47 <silvia> zakim, close item 3
22:18:47 <Zakim> agendum 3, Paused Media: Continuing Discussion, closed
22:18:48 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:18:50 <Zakim> 4. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
22:21:30 <silvia> Judy will follow up on a reply to the ISO/MPEG group
22:21:46 <silvia> re kind attribute values
22:21:58 <silvia> other actions are still open and continue
22:22:41 <silvia> there is also a bug on providing track usage examples - silvia will follow up
22:22:47 <silvia> zakim, close item 4
22:22:47 <Zakim> agendum 4, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, closed
22:22:49 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:22:50 <Zakim> 5. Other Business? [from janina]
22:24:56 <plh> plh has joined #html-a11y
22:25:02 <Zakim> +Plh
22:29:34 <silvia> note that Google proposed a WebVTT WG charter to W3C
22:30:45 <silvia> janina: we still have to take up the topic of navigation
22:32:07 <Zakim> +Eric.a
22:32:09 <Zakim> -Eric
22:33:17 <silvia> silvia: had a brief discussion with Ian about this and we may be able to satisfy it with existing techniques - have to look at it in more depth - there's a bug in the HTML bug tracker
22:33:29 <silvia> janina: keen to look at the Web Audio API
22:39:17 <silvia> there is an ETSI standard on this for broadcasting
22:39:25 <silvia> zakim, close item 5
22:39:25 <Zakim> agendum 5, Other Business?, closed
22:39:26 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
22:39:26 <Zakim> 6. be done [from janina]
22:40:11 <Zakim> -Eric.a
22:40:13 <Zakim> -Sean
22:40:15 <Zakim> -Judy
22:40:17 <Zakim> -Plh
22:40:20 <silvia> zakim, bye
22:40:20 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Janina, Sean, silvia, Judy, Eric, Plh
22:40:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
22:40:34 <silvia> rrsagent, make log public
22:40:52 <silvia> rrsagent, make minutes
22:40:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/25-html-a11y-minutes.html silvia
22:41:33 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
23:27:41 <davidb> davidb has joined #html-a11y