IRC log of css on 2011-05-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:23:03 [RRSAgent]
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15:23:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:23:12 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:23:12 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
15:23:17 [glazou]
RRSAgent: make logs public
15:42:14 [dbaron]
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15:50:14 [stearns]
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15:58:02 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:58:07 [Zakim]
15:58:12 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:58:12 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:59:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.550.aaaa
15:59:59 [stearns]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:59 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
16:00:36 [Zakim]
16:00:49 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:00:55 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:01:14 [Zakim]
16:01:30 [Zakim]
16:01:30 [johnjan]
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16:02:00 [Zakim]
16:02:18 [Cathy]
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16:02:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
16:02:46 [acebal]
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16:02:55 [TabAtkins]
zakim, aabb is me
16:02:55 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:03:12 [Zakim]
16:03:18 [Zakim]
16:04:31 [Zakim]
16:04:39 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p33 is me
16:04:39 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:04:54 [TabAtkins]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:04:56 [johnjan]
Zakim, microsoft has johnjan
16:04:56 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
16:05:16 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Extras for today? Bert sent one.
16:05:43 [Zakim]
+ +34.14.4.aacc
16:05:44 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Let's start with the CSS 2.1 pub request.
16:06:01 [acebal]
zakim, aacc is me
16:06:01 [Zakim]
+acebal; got it
16:06:16 [TabAtkins]
Bert: There was an internal meeting about the 2.1 review, all comments were positive.
16:06:34 [oyvind]
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16:06:38 [Zakim]
16:07:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.354.aadd
16:09:25 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Another thing you mentioned was the acks section.
16:09:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I suggested listing the current members of the WG.
16:09:56 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Because some former members of the WG are not listed, or people from www-style.
16:10:14 [TabAtkins]
Bert: If people have names to add, please give them to me quickly.
16:10:24 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Especially anyone who's sent lots of issues in LC.
16:11:18 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think it's fine to list people who contribute to the testsuite.
16:11:31 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Maybe in a separate section, specifically titled?
16:11:53 [Zakim]
16:12:01 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I don't think listing *all* WG members is a very honest thing to do, because there's a significant number of members who have never sent an email or attended a telcon.
16:12:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I don't like the "don't put anything" option, because it misrepresents the work the w3c members have done on this document.
16:12:30 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Bert, I'll mail you a compromise after the call.
16:12:43 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Did you get the testimonial from MS?
16:12:52 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Dunno, where did it come from?
16:13:10 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: From Michael Champion.
16:14:02 [TabAtkins]
plinss_: I'd like to add the links to the annotation system to the spec.
16:14:55 [TabAtkins]
arronei: I presume Bert will produce a diff from the last draft to the PR?
16:15:10 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I hadn't thought about how to make it public yet, any ideas?
16:15:28 [TabAtkins]
arronei: Hadn't thought. I don't particularly need it public yet, so we can get it quickly and then deal with public later.
16:15:51 [glazou]
16:16:02 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Please update the page with your arrival, etc.
16:16:32 [TabAtkins]
glazou: f2f agenda items, we have 9 including stuff coming from the forum.
16:17:26 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I'm definitely going to want to talk about Variables/Mixins/etc
16:18:06 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: I think Feature Queries in the backlog is an interesting topic.
16:18:16 [TabAtkins]
howcome: We'd like to talk about the CSS Viewport spec.
16:18:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I know Anne is on vacation, but do you think he'll have time to contribute to CSSOM when he's back?
16:18:44 [TabAtkins]
howcome: That's my assumption.
16:18:59 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Good, I've been playing with it and it's a huge pain.
16:19:30 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: It definitely needs some talking about. It needs the 2.1 treatment, but it needs to move forward to new areas as well.
16:19:48 [TabAtkins]
howcome: I think Anne's goal has been to describe something more than what exists today.
16:19:58 [plinss]
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16:20:01 [TabAtkins]
howcome: From our perspective, the CSSOM his high priority too.
16:20:35 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: I think the discussion should be about how to take this gigantic editors draft and get it to move forward.
16:21:12 [TabAtkins]
glazou: It's going to take time, but it's worth doing it.
16:21:36 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I'm going to start mailing the list about issues I've found with it.
16:21:58 [TabAtkins]
howcome: The most important thing from our perspective is to offer alternative to the string-based api.
16:22:05 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Big priority for us too.
16:22:13 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Yes, definitely. Tons of serialization.
16:22:42 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Anything else about the f2f?
16:22:49 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Now, publication requests.
16:22:57 [TabAtkins]
glazou: First is about Writing Modes. Elika requested an LCWD.
16:23:10 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: jdaggett suggested to wait and just publish a WD.
16:23:29 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I'm fine with that, so we can talk over the issues at the f2f and publish again afterwards.
16:23:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I'm fine with that.
16:23:42 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Publish Writing Modes as WD.
16:23:47 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Anyone from Adobe on the call?
16:24:01 [TabAtkins]
We have a request for Regions & Exclusions.
16:24:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Lots of discussion about this on the lsit, and Vincent said he was integrating the feedback. Is that done?
16:24:35 [TabAtkins]
stearns: Not sure if he's finished that yet, but I know he's working on it.
16:25:07 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think there was a lot of discussion about merging or splitting Exclusions into/from Floats, so if Regions is ready it makes sense to publish, but we should wait for Exclusions until after the f2f.
16:25:16 [TabAtkins]
arronei: I agree.
16:25:27 [TabAtkins]
alexmog: Me too.
16:25:32 [alexmog]
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16:26:03 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Once the WG gets an email saying that Regions edits are done, publish as WD.
16:27:33 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Next, publishing Images.
16:28:09 [dbaron]
fantasai: should have a changes list
16:28:15 [dbaron]
Tab: I'd like to resolve on gradient angles.
16:28:22 [dbaron]
Daniel: probably better at F2F
16:28:35 [fantasai]
16:28:41 [dbaron]
fantasai: Got some Web author feedback on this issue (url)
16:28:56 [dbaron]
Tab: overwhelming majority go in one direction, which is how I've now changed the spec
16:29:02 [fantasai]
16:29:24 [dbaron]
Tab: now it's 0deg is north, 90deg is east, clockwise...
16:29:52 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Next is CSS3 Namespaces.
16:30:08 [TabAtkins]
glazou: We were supposed to get some comments from i18n, and still have nothing so far.
16:30:15 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I see the draft response on their list.
16:30:49 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: They give some background information, and recommend that Namespaces say that selectors should be compared as canonically equivalent.
16:31:02 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I replied saying that was out-of-scope for this draft, because we don't deal with selector matching in Namespaces.
16:31:10 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Can you mail the list with references to these two emails?
16:31:38 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: The in-scope issue that they could make would be that namespace prefixes should be canonicalized.
16:31:50 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Do we fall into normalization hell?
16:32:23 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think that if we wanted to address their concern if would be relatively straightforward to require that all CSS identifiers are parsed into NFC or whatever. Normalize on parsing, and just store it that way from then on.
16:32:50 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I think I remember a comment from david that normalizing at parse time is going to be very expensive.
16:33:20 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I remember a discussion where I said I'd much rather normalize strings than normalize later - I'd rather do it at the same time we do encoding conversion and such.
16:33:34 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So if we store all identifiers in a given normalization, is that okay?
16:34:16 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I was suggesting encoding-time normalization - authors could still manually get unnormalized things by using escape chars.
16:34:20 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Could you suggest some text?
16:34:37 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think this is higher-level than namespaces.
16:34:50 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: And I think we need good agreement between browsers that they're willing to do.
16:35:07 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Ok. The comment that it's something that must be addressed at a higher level is a good comment for us.
16:35:27 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Elika, please mail references to the two emails, and I'll write prose saying what dbaron just said. That way we can move the document along the rec track.
16:35:57 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Okay. Also, I think dbaron's suggestion makes a lot of sense.
16:36:08 [fantasai]
16:36:45 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: So everyone should ping their parser guys and see what they think.
16:36:59 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Whatever the answer, we can say that the issue shouldn't be addressed for the Namespaces spec itself.
16:37:52 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We can potentially say that namespace prefixes specifically are canonicalized. But we'd have to reject that suggestion to say that the greater issue is out of scope.
16:38:28 [TabAtkins]
glazou: At some point I'd like to discuss the OM for namespaces. Right now we have nothing, and it makes it impossible to serialize a stylesheet.
16:38:54 [TabAtkins]
glazou: We have a few technical items on the wiki to discuss still.
16:39:14 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Did we go over the website?
16:41:01 [TabAtkins]
[uncaught talk about alternate stylesheets?]
16:41:12 [fantasai]
for comparison, here's the design submitted by Divya
16:41:16 [fantasai]
16:41:34 [fantasai]
Bert said to go to
16:41:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So, should we switch? I say yes.
16:41:41 [fantasai]
and switch the alternate style sheet to "Main"
16:41:43 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Yes.
16:41:44 [TabAtkins]
arronei: Yes.
16:41:49 [plinss_sfo]
16:41:59 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Anyone, please check for errors or anything I can improve.
16:42:28 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I plan to turn it on before I leave for Japan, so sometime Monday.
16:42:42 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Change the website over to the new design from Divya.
16:42:55 [TabAtkins]
glazou: A companion item - the csswg blog.
16:43:07 [TabAtkins]
glazou: "What will it take to switch to wordpress?"
16:43:15 [TabAtkins]
Bert: On the tech side, it's easy, just put in a sysreq.
16:43:38 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Can we please do that? It would be amazingly easy.
16:43:55 [TabAtkins]
Bert: The only thing I'm unsure of is how to do templates.
16:43:57 [fantasai]
16:44:18 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: If the only thing we're blocked on is getting a wp template, we can do that.
16:44:55 [TabAtkins]
glazou: We'll just need the template before the switch.
16:45:08 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I'll be the point person, but I can't do the template myself.
16:45:15 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Ok, let's do the coordination offline.