14:45:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:45:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-irc
14:45:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:45:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:45:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:45:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:45:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:45:07 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2011
14:45:17 <luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:45:17 <Zakim> ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:40 <luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
14:45:55 <luc> Chair: Paul Groth
14:46:08 <luc> Scribe: smiles
14:46:22 <luc> rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:38 <luc> Regrets: Kai Eckert
14:51:15 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:51:17 <Zakim> +??P12
14:51:28 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P12 is pgroth
14:51:28 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:51:37 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:51:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth
14:52:45 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
14:52:45 <Zakim> +luc
14:52:47 <Zakim> -luc
14:52:47 <Zakim> +luc
14:53:42 <Zakim> +??P21
14:53:55 <smiles> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:53:55 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
14:54:36 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
14:54:55 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
14:55:21 <simoninireland> simoninireland has joined #prov
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa
14:57:39 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P22
14:58:06 <Zakim> +DavidSchaengold
14:58:08 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
14:58:17 <DavidSchaengold> DavidSchaengold has joined #prov
14:58:30 <tlebo> What command do I use to associate my irc handle to my phone?
14:58:39 <Zakim> +??P30
14:58:42 <EdoardoandDavid> EdoardoandDavid has joined #prov
14:58:44 <pgroth> \me Zakim blah is blah
14:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aabb
14:59:15 <jorn> Zakim: ??P30 is me
14:59:23 <tlebo> \me Zakim P22 is tlebo
14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P35
14:59:31 <Edoardo_and_David> Edoardo_and_David has joined #prov
14:59:32 <tlebo> Zakim P22 is tlebo
14:59:41 <CarlOGC> CarlOGC has joined #prov
14:59:49 <jorn> Zakim, ??P30 is me
14:59:49 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
14:59:50 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P22 is tlebo
14:59:50 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
14:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.805.893.aacc
14:59:52 <Zakim> +??P37
14:59:56 <frew> frew has joined #prov
15:00:00 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:00:12 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:00:12 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:00:12 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:00:17 <Zakim> +??P3
15:00:34 <YogeshSimmhan> YogeshSimmhan has joined #prov
15:00:42 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov
15:00:45 <Zakim> +SatyaSahoo
15:00:46 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov
15:00:53 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:00:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's there?
15:00:54 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.
15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P4
15:01:03 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (28%)
15:01:28 <Zakim> +paolo_
15:01:34 <Zakim> +olaf
15:01:38 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:01:44 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:01:51 <luc> Guest: Paolo (paolo_) Missier 
15:01:54 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd
15:02:03 <iker> iker has joined #prov
15:02:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:14 <luc> Guest: Satya Sahoo  
15:02:18 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:02:22 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, [IPcaller]
15:02:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:02:32 <luc> Guest: Yogesh Simmhan
15:02:35 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller] is jun
15:02:36 <Zakim> +??P40
15:02:40 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:02:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P40 is me
15:02:51 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:53 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:03:01 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:03 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney
15:03:04 <frew> I am +1.805.893.aacc
15:03:06 <Zakim> +??P42
15:03:31 <zednik> I am +1.518.633.aadd
15:03:40 <dgarijo> Zakim, 1.805.893.aacc is frew
15:03:40 <Zakim> sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '1.805.893.aacc'
15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P44
15:03:54 <Zakim> +??P8
15:03:56 <Christine> Hi. Sorry everyone. I'm not sure how to assign myself. Calling using VOIP. (Thanks Luc, you did send instructions.)
15:04:11 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:04:14 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, ??P8
15:04:14 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me
15:04:14 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:04:46 <GK_> GK_ has joined #prov
15:04:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:04:58 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame
15:05:00 <frew> +q
15:05:39 <jorn> zakim, aad is zednik
15:05:39 <Zakim> sorry, jorn, I do not recognize a party named 'aad'
15:05:40 <dgarijo> Type: "Zakim, <YOUR id> is me"
15:05:45 <jorn> zakim, aadd is zednik
15:05:45 <Zakim> +zednik; got it
15:05:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone
15:05:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', pgroth
15:06:01 <jorn> zakim, aacc is frew
15:06:01 <Zakim> +frew; got it
15:06:04 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,
15:06:09 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame
15:06:21 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:21 <Zakim> +??P17
15:06:27 <frew> zakim, frew is +1-805-893-7356
15:06:27 <Zakim> ++1-805-893-7356; got it
15:06:37 <smiles> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:37 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:06:46 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:06:52 <CarlOGC> zakim skype carl.n.reed CarlOGC
15:06:57 <GK> +??P44
15:07:01 <pgroth>   http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-12
15:07:01 <luc> Guest: Yolanda Gil
15:07:01 <smiles> TOPIC: Admin
15:07:13 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of 12 May telecon
15:07:20 <simoninireland> +1
15:07:21 <dgarijo> +1
15:07:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:07:22 <satya> +1
15:07:23 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:07:23 <smiles> +1
15:07:23 <SamCoppens> zakim, +??44 is SamCoppens
15:07:23 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '+??44'
15:07:24 <frew> +1
15:07:25 <jcheney> +1
15:07:26 <jorn> +1
15:07:28 <tlebo> +1
15:07:29 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:07:37 <GK> +1
15:07:42 <olaf> +1
15:07:45 <iker> +1
15:07:46 <jun> +1
15:07:48 <SamCoppens> zakim, ??44 is SamCoppens
15:07:49 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '??44'
15:07:55 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1-805-893-7356, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:08:01 <Zakim> ... zednik, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda
15:08:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:08:14 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 25 (3%), pgroth (54%), DavidSchaengold (24%), ??P35 (51%), ??P44 (12%)
15:08:16 <pgroth> minutes accepted
15:08:18 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:08:25 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P44 is SamCoppens
15:08:25 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:08:31 <SamCoppens> thanks
15:09:02 <smiles> pgroth: action to add links to examples (active topics from front Wiki page) has been done
15:09:14 <frew> zakim, +1-805-893-7356 is me
15:09:14 <Zakim> +frew; got it
15:09:23 <smiles> ... encourage all to add links when new active topics
15:09:41 <satya> q+
15:09:46 <pgroth> ack frew
15:09:55 <smiles> pgroth: slowly resolving issues getting everyone on group, mailing list
15:10:07 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:10:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,
15:10:10 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda
15:10:19 <smiles> satya: how soon will invited expert issues be resolved?
15:10:30 <satya> q-
15:10:37 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
15:10:44 <smiles> pgroth: don't know, for W3C
15:10:47 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes
15:11:01 <Zakim> +??P44
15:11:13 <GK> zakim, ??P44 is me
15:11:13 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:11:17 <smiles> pgroth: we need scribes for the next weeks - please add you names, else will pick on people
15:11:36 <luc> see instructions http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
15:11:44 <VinhNguyen> VinhNguyen has joined #prov
15:11:53 <luc> we can help set up before meeting
15:12:03 <smiles> pgroth: responsibilities of scribes are to write summaries of what people say, and commands are available on the link luc just sent
15:12:27 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample
15:12:42 <smiles> TOPIC: data journalism example
15:12:56 <jorn> zakim,, who|s noisy
15:13:00 <Zakim> I don't understand ', who|s noisy', jorn
15:13:05 <smiles> pgroth: we decided to take an example-based approach, comments were received, are there any more?
15:13:08 <khalidbelhajjame> there is noise on the line
15:13:09 <jorn> zakim, who's noisy
15:13:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', jorn
15:13:38 <GK> zakim, who is talking
15:13:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', GK
15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:13:50 <dgarijo> zakim, who is making noise?
15:13:54 <Zakim> -jorn
15:13:58 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), +1.518.276.aaaa (4%), Yolanda (51%)
15:14:09 <Zakim> dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (5%), pgroth (32%), Yolanda (43%)
15:14:10 <smiles> YolandaG: liked example, but where we illustrate what a provenance container is, need to be clear that not all provenance may be in that container - may need to access other areas
15:14:30 <Zakim> -smiles
15:14:34 <tlebo> yolanda: should consider situation where not all provenance is in the same "container", and would need to go fetch additional provenance for that resource.
15:14:35 <Zakim> +??P45
15:14:46 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:14:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:14:56 <jun> +1 to YolandaG
15:14:58 <pgroth> can people use the queue
15:15:15 <luc> ???: multiple sources are not represented yet in the example
15:15:25 <Zakim> +VinhNguyen
15:15:32 <pgroth> Zakim, mute YolandaG
15:15:32 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to YolandaG
15:15:35 <Zakim> +??P46
15:15:40 <pgroth> Zakim, mute Yolanda
15:15:40 <Zakim> Yolanda should now be muted
15:15:55 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:16:02 <pgroth> q?
15:16:06 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (9%), pgroth (43%), DavidSchaengold (13%), ??P35 (14%), smiles (18%)
15:16:29 <luc> carlOGC: to send a few words to incorporate map 
15:16:38 <smiles> CarlOGC: asks about incorporating a map into the example
15:16:49 <tlebo> would the group mind expanding the variables used in the scenario? (e.g. lcp1)
15:17:12 <tlebo> +1 to continuing with example.
15:17:27 <smiles> pgroth: can we proceed with example as is, and expand as we go along - nice to move on to discussing concepts
15:17:29 <GK> +1 to moving on, update example as needed.
15:17:48 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for continuing to change the example along instead of trying to get right now
15:17:55 <pgroth> proposal: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands
15:17:57 <YogeshSimmhan> +1
15:17:58 <jorn> +1
15:18:00 <dgarijo> +1
15:18:02 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:18:02 <satya> I agree, we should start with the example and let it evolve
15:18:02 <tlebo> +1
15:18:03 <olaf> +1 to moving on
15:18:03 <smiles> +1
15:18:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:18:06 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:18:07 <SamCoppens> +1
15:18:09 <paolo> +1
15:18:11 <jun> +1
15:18:12 <iker> +1 moving on
15:18:15 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (27%)
15:18:18 <zednik> +1
15:18:19 <simoninireland> +1
15:18:20 <jcheney> +1
15:18:23 <jorn> zakim, please mute khalidbelhajjame 
15:18:23 <Zakim> khalidbelhajjame should now be muted
15:18:28 <VinhNguyen> +1
15:18:35 <GK> +1
15:18:37 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
15:18:57 <frew> if you are in a public place then please mute
15:19:01 <pgroth> proposal accepted
15:19:02 <tlebo> +q
15:19:03 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:19:15 <Zakim> +??P8
15:19:28 <smiles> tlebo: what are the next steps beyond making tweaks to scenario?
15:19:33 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me
15:19:35 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:20:05 <dgarijo> +q
15:20:23 <smiles> pgroth: proceed as we have been doing by email to discuss example
15:20:27 <tlebo> pgroth: how to proceed with current example: continue to discuss via email.
15:20:40 <luc> ack tlebo
15:20:46 <pgroth> ack dgarijo
15:20:53 <smiles> dgarijo: proposal to add another example(s) on mailing list
15:20:54 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:20:57 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy?
15:20:57 <tlebo> []: do we create a new example to capture scientific domain.
15:20:58 <satya> q+
15:21:11 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidSchaengold (59%), ??P35 (29%)
15:21:15 <pgroth> i droped
15:21:17 <tlebo> q?
15:21:20 <pgroth> can you take over luc
15:21:37 <luc> yes
15:21:42 <jorn> zakim, please mute DavidSchaengold
15:21:42 <Zakim> DavidSchaengold should now be muted
15:21:47 <tlebo> q?
15:21:50 <dgarijo> finally!
15:21:52 <Zakim> +??P12
15:22:08 <pgroth> zakim, ??P12 is pgroth
15:22:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:22:27 <tlebo> proposal: create an additional example for scientific domain.
15:22:51 <smiles> luc: agreed last time to start with first example for discussing concepts, bring other examples when need found
15:22:54 <satya> q-
15:23:04 <tlebo> luc: we agreed to start with this example to discuss concepts. When this scenario does not capture the concepts of sci prov, we develop new example.
15:23:17 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:23:33 <tlebo> +1 working with the example as is.
15:23:36 <smiles> pgroth: we need to move on discussing concepts, but can keep iterating
15:23:58 <smiles> TOPIC: provenance access and query task force
15:24:04 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0071.html
15:24:15 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Access_and_Query_Task_Force
15:24:31 <smiles> pgroth: discussion of architecture on mailing list, any comments on how to get tf started?
15:24:49 <Zakim> +paulo
15:24:50 <smiles> olaf: we agreed on a set of objectives for F2F
15:25:20 <smiles> ... including draft for access and query architecture
15:25:22 <iker> +1 olaf proposal
15:25:34 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov/
15:25:41 <GK> q+, to say I'm not sure how the provenance XG report really works as a foundation
15:25:46 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Olaf's proposal
15:25:52 <smiles> PROPOSED: base draft architecture on XG report linked above
15:25:57 <d3a303> d3a303 has joined #prov
15:26:03 <dgarijo> +1
15:26:07 <SamCoppens> +1
15:26:50 <smiles> GK: not clear from XG report what the problem trying to be solved is
15:26:50 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaee
15:27:08 <tlebo> []: we need a clear problem statement for PAQ-TF.
15:27:12 <satya> q+
15:27:18 <smiles> ... will send thoughts to mailing list on this
15:27:26 <paulo> q+
15:27:41 <luc> ack satya
15:27:46 <smiles> satya: agree with Olaf, but in XG report did not discuss query mechanism only access
15:27:58 <smiles> ... will we discuss query separately?
15:28:21 <smiles> pgroth: olaf's proposal was around access, fit into web architecture
15:28:33 <luc> q+
15:29:57 <Zakim> -jorn
15:30:00 <tlebo> paulo: we need questions for the provenance example.
15:30:15 <smiles> paulo: we have scenario with list of questions which could be posed, but should have queries which motivate problem - design for answering questions asked
15:30:16 <Zakim> +??P45
15:30:25 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me
15:30:25 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:30:34 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample#Provenance_Questions
15:31:18 <smiles> luc: discussions on access task force were good, and discussion of XG report was positively received
15:31:31 <smiles> ... we were pointed to POWDER as something to consider
15:32:06 <smiles> ... queries are in scope of this WG, but not intent of WG to design a query language for provenance
15:32:40 <GK> +1 not designing a query language
15:32:45 <smiles> pgroth: two proposals to proceed: use incubator group report section to build up from
15:32:59 <GK> q+ to say not opposing use of XG doc
15:33:05 <pgroth> ack paulo
15:33:07 <pgroth> ack luc
15:33:09 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 to olaf proposal to use XG report as starting point
15:33:16 <Zakim> -Yogesh
15:33:18 <smiles> ... second, crisply define the problems we are trying to solve first
15:33:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:33:44 <smiles> +1
15:33:45 <Zakim> +Yogesh
15:33:45 <SamCoppens> +1
15:33:45 <jcheney> +1 for starting point
15:33:46 <simoninireland> +1
15:33:47 <olaf> +1
15:33:48 <jorn> +1
15:33:49 <dgarijo> +1
15:33:50 <tlebo> +1
15:33:50 <d3a303> +1
15:33:51 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:33:55 <jun> +1 for starting point
15:33:56 <GK> +1 (taking into account resevrations noted in email)
15:34:04 <satya> I also propose that we rename PAQ task force as provenance access task force
15:34:05 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:34:09 <satya> +1
15:34:11 <dgarijo> also, +1 to not designing a new query language.
15:34:25 <Zakim> -paulo
15:34:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:34:27 <d3a303> d3a303 - is ericstephan - btw :-)
15:34:34 <pgroth> ack GK
15:34:34 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say not opposing use of XG doc
15:34:38 <GK> q-
15:34:48 <d3a303> d3a303 has left #prov
15:34:51 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame
15:35:24 <smiles> khalid: with regard to query language being outside scope of WG, we should be clear that only access
15:35:26 <smiles> RESOLVED: use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft
15:35:30 <GK> q+ to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK
15:35:37 <luc> It is still the case that we may want to explain how to use, say SPARQL, to query provenance
15:35:38 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
15:35:48 <satya> q+
15:36:36 <smiles> pgroth: could rename access and query task force to access only, but also have reference to sparql endpoints etc in charter
15:36:48 <Zakim> +paulo
15:36:57 <satya> q-
15:36:57 <pgroth> q?
15:37:00 <smiles> satya: not proposing new query language, but say how existing languages to fit into architecture
15:37:36 <smiles> GK: maybe in scope how to make use of existing query languages, mechanisms
15:38:12 <smiles> TOPIC: concepts illustration
15:38:31 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html
15:38:39 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
15:38:45 <smiles> pgroth: asked people to discuss how example can be used to illustrate concepts from charter
15:39:23 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:39:28 <paulo> q+
15:39:29 <smiles> ... used scenario to propose examples for concepts - not many comments yet - are they reasonable?
15:39:39 <pgroth> ack GK
15:39:39 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK
15:39:45 <pgroth> ack paulo
15:40:05 <Altintas> Altintas has joined #prov
15:40:19 <smiles> paulo: maybe limiting that example is so focused on a process
15:42:02 <smiles> ... use of process may blind us to cover all aspects we need
15:42:44 <paulo> q+
15:42:48 <smiles> pgroth: we want to define the set of concepts we want to use, need a process for this activity
15:43:34 <smiles> ... (process for wg, not in model)
15:43:44 <luc> paul: explain what an issue is
15:43:54 <pgroth> What term do we adopt for concept 'xxx' and how do we define it?"
15:44:13 <luc> paul, please explain what an issue is
15:44:13 <smiles> pgroth: raise an issue for each concept in the charter of form above
15:44:30 <ericstephan> q+
15:44:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/
15:44:39 <Zakim> - +1.509.375.aaee
15:44:45 <smiles> ... an issue is something which can be raised in the tracker for discussion until resolution
15:44:57 <pgroth> q-
15:45:02 <pgroth> eric?
15:45:22 <ericstephan> lost connection getting back on
15:45:27 <paulo> q+
15:45:29 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaff
15:45:37 <smiles> pgroth: initial set from charter, and if new concepts people can raise them as issues
15:45:41 <Zakim> -jorn
15:45:43 <jorn> zakim, aaff probably is ericstephan 
15:45:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff probably is ericstephan', jorn
15:45:44 <ericstephan> q+ again sorry
15:45:56 <Zakim> +??P14
15:46:07 <jorn> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:46:08 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:46:34 <jcheney> "issue" is just the name for something the tracker tracks...
15:46:46 <smiles> paulo: consider questions we have to be answered with model, as we may have concepts which are not answering any question
15:46:46 <luc> paulo has got a point, we have a list of queries associated with the example
15:47:04 <luc> a "w3c issue" is like a bug in bugzilla
15:47:35 <jcheney> some of them might be uncontroversial and so "resolved" immediately.
15:48:13 <jorn> zakim, aaff is probably ericstephan 
15:48:13 <Zakim> +ericstephan?; got it
15:48:18 <smiles> luc: paulo is right that we do not want concepts not used in any queries, so we need to show how they are used to answer queries
15:48:25 <smiles> ... we have a list and need to extend it over time
15:48:48 <smiles> PROPOSED: raise issue for discussing each concept
15:48:49 <satya> for raising issue?
15:48:49 <simoninireland> +1
15:48:49 <tlebo> +1 using tracker 
15:48:49 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:48:50 <dgarijo> +1
15:48:51 <ericstephan> +1
15:48:52 <satya> +1
15:48:52 <jorn> +1
15:48:53 <jcheney> +1
15:48:53 <smiles> +1
15:48:53 <GK> +1
15:48:54 <jun> +1
15:48:54 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:48:54 <zednik> +1
15:48:54 <Altintas> +1
15:48:55 <frew> +1
15:48:55 <SamCoppens> +1
15:48:56 <paulo> q+
15:48:57 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
15:48:58 <olaf> +1
15:48:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:49:00 <YogeshSimmhan> +1
15:49:00 <jcheney> q+
15:49:58 <smiles> eric: can connection task force use these concepts to identify which groups they may pertain to?
15:50:25 <pgroth> ack paulo
15:50:32 <pgroth> ack eristephan
15:50:41 <pgroth> q?
15:50:51 <smiles> jcheney: when using issue tracker, there is a formal process for asking for comments from outside
15:51:20 <smiles> ... guidance says good to have examples to illustrate disagreements
15:51:30 <dgarijo> ack ericstephan
15:51:31 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#formal-address
15:51:34 <jcheney> q-
15:52:06 <smiles> RESOLVED: use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions
15:52:23 <tlebo> wiki?
15:52:32 <smiles> pgroth: how to suggest definitions?
15:52:34 <luc> a wiki page per concept?
15:52:44 <tlebo> +1
15:52:47 <zednik> +1
15:52:52 <luc> i don't think so
15:53:03 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 a wiki page per concept
15:53:05 <ericstephan> +1 luc's idea
15:53:07 <jorn> +1
15:53:12 <smiles> pgroth: once we have a wiki page per concept, then what?
15:53:13 <satya> +1 for wiki page
15:53:15 <tlebo> q+
15:53:16 <luc> so, when we raise an issue, we also create the corresponding wiki page
15:53:22 <olaf> +1
15:53:29 <satya> Create a definition for the concept
15:53:35 <jun> +1
15:53:41 <SamCoppens> +1
15:53:45 <GK> q+ to suggest that someone familiar with W3C support tools should make proposal (on list, with links) then have us throw rocks at it?
15:53:47 <smiles> tlebo: use wiki to represent current definition, have wiki link as part of the tracker (issue)
15:53:57 <dgarijo> +1
15:53:58 <jorn> there are history links in the wiki, aren't they? so use them in emails?
15:53:59 <Altintas> +1
15:54:11 <luc> q+
15:54:12 <satya> from the XG final report?
15:54:16 <luc> ack again
15:54:18 <luc> ack sorry
15:54:20 <smiles> pgroth: how to get first set of definitions?
15:54:24 <luc> q+
15:54:59 <smiles> GK: maybe more productive for someone familiar with W3C tooling put something initial together
15:55:35 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov
15:55:43 <GK> q-
15:55:47 <smiles> luc: proposal of inviting submitting definitions is good, but some definitions may be mutually dependent, so need mechanism to cross-ref definitions
15:55:51 <luc> q-
15:55:53 <satya> a note on the wiki page of the concept to cross-reference?
15:56:23 <Zakim> -??P3
15:56:28 <smiles> PROPOSED: idea is everyone allowed to submit own definitions, then merge
15:56:29 <GK> q+ to suggest suggested definitions should be grounded in example
15:56:37 <luc> or is better to put one proposal, which get discussed?
15:56:44 <tlebo> concept references within a definition can link via wiki link.
15:56:58 <smiles> GK: in asking people to submit, could ask that grounded in example?
15:57:04 <dgarijo> +1
15:57:32 <smiles> pgroth: (agree with GK, add to proposal above)
15:57:43 <satya> + 1 for proposal 1
15:57:51 <smiles> pgroth: alternative proposal to start with one definition, and edit (based on example)
15:57:55 <luc> ... or prposed alternative definition
15:57:56 <tlebo> multiple working definitions could be placed onto the same concept's wiki page
15:57:57 <GK> q+ point of order: proposals not mutually exclusive?
15:58:53 <tlebo> what percentage of the working group can edit the wiki?
15:58:54 <smiles> GK: just suggesting that whatever process used, ground in example
15:58:59 <luc> q+
15:59:25 <jcheney> +q
15:59:25 <GK> q-
15:59:27 <luc> q-
15:59:33 <pgroth> ack tlebo
15:59:36 <smiles> luc: maybe difficult to come up with initial definitions - instead paraphrase something rather than formal definition
16:00:04 <smiles> jcheney: formal or informal definitions?
16:00:11 <paulo> q+
16:00:16 <zednik> +1 informal
16:00:20 <jcheney> q-
16:00:23 <jorn> +1 for informal first...
16:00:25 <Zakim> -??P42
16:00:32 <dgarijo> +1 to informal
16:00:33 <luc> q+
16:00:34 <tlebo> re: formality, have both rdfs/owl statements and inform descriptions on same wiki page for the concept?
16:00:52 <smiles> paulo: agree on distinction between informal and formal definitions (are informal definitions actually definitions?)
16:01:23 <Zakim> -jorn
16:01:28 <smiles> luc: half of wg did not belong to incubator, we are first trying to build a shared vocabulary
16:01:36 <GK> +1 to building shared vocabulary
16:01:48 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
16:01:53 <Zakim> +??P62
16:01:58 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
16:02:00 <zednik> +1 to building shared vocabularly
16:02:06 <jorn> Zakim, ??p62 is me
16:02:06 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
16:02:06 <smiles> ... starting with a formal definition is not helping, informal definition using paraphrasing, examples, graphical notation is better
16:02:19 <olaf> +1 for proposal 1 with informal definitions
16:02:28 <jun> + informal
16:02:30 <dgarijo> +1
16:02:30 <jcheney> +1
16:02:31 <jorn> +1
16:02:31 <zednik> +1
16:02:31 <tlebo> +1 formal +1 informal
16:02:33 <ericstephan> +1
16:02:33 <frew> +1
16:02:34 <satya> +1 for informal
16:02:35 <Edoardo_and_David> +1
16:02:36 <pgroth> proposal  for information to start
16:02:38 <smiles> pgroth: informal definitions to start?
16:02:39 <smiles> +1
16:02:41 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
16:02:43 <paolo> +1 informal
16:02:44 <dgarijo> +1 informal
16:02:44 <DavidSchaengold> +1 for informal
16:02:45 <GK> +1 start informal, build shared vocab
16:02:46 <CarlOGC> +1
16:02:48 <YogeshSimmhan> +1
16:02:48 <Altintas> +1
16:02:50 <SamCoppens> +1
16:02:54 <Altintas> or informal
16:03:28 <Zakim> -frew
16:03:32 <smiles> pgroth: will set up web pages for concepts, task for defining concepts
16:03:32 <Zakim> -jun
16:03:34 <Zakim> -SatyaSahoo
16:03:35 <Zakim> -ericstephan?
16:03:36 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaaa
16:03:39 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:03:41 <Zakim> -DavidSchaengold
16:03:42 <paolo> paolo has left #prov
16:03:43 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
16:03:45 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:03:47 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aabb
16:03:49 <Zakim> -olaf
16:03:51 <Zakim> -Yogesh
16:03:53 <Zakim> -paolo_
16:03:55 <Zakim> -zednik
16:03:57 <Zakim> -VinhNguyen
16:04:01 <Zakim> -luc
16:04:01 <smiles> rrsagent, set log public
16:04:03 <Zakim> -GK
16:04:04 <ericstephan> Yes Zakim?
16:04:07 <Zakim> -paulo
16:04:07 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
16:04:09 <Zakim> -??P35
16:04:11 <smiles> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html smiles
16:04:15 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:04:17 <Zakim> -??P4
16:04:17 <luc> thanks simon
16:04:21 <Zakim> -??P17
16:04:27 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:04:28 <smiles> trackbot, end telcon
16:04:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, DavidSchaengold, +1.858.210.aabb, jorn, tlebo, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, paolo_, olaf,
16:04:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:04:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:04:32 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, Yogesh, jun, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, zednik, Yolanda, SamCoppens, frew, GK, VinhNguyen, paulo, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.509.375.aaff, ericstephan?