IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:21:31 [davidb]
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01:04:23 [janina]
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15:02:16 [RRSAgent]
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15:02:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-html-a11y-irc
15:02:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:02:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:02:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:21 [trackbot]
Date: 19 May 2011
15:02:30 [janina]
Judy, our process on confirming longdesc is at risk if we lost this telecon, it's important we cover the phone quickly
15:02:43 [richardschwerdtfe]
RRSAgent, make log public
15:03:02 [janina]
I've been requested to stay in the mtg with Tim
15:03:18 [janina]
Can someone run the agenda? I believe Michael is on his way to do that.
15:03:20 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:03:31 [MichaelC_]
MichaelC_ has joined #html-a11y
15:04:27 [janina]
We have votes to record that came in via email. I can post when appropriate
15:04:57 [cyns]
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15:05:16 [MRanon]
zakim, mute me
15:05:16 [Zakim]
sorry, MRanon, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:56 [JF]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:05:57 [JF]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:05:59 [JF]
Scribe: Steve_Faulkner
15:06:00 [JF]
agenda: this
15:06:02 [JF]
agenda+Forwarded Text Subteam Issues (See Below)
15:06:03 [JF]
agenda+ HTML 5 Last Call WBS http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
15:06:05 [JF]
agenda+Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
15:06:06 [JF]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:06:08 [JF]
agenda+Other Business
15:06:09 [JF]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for 26 May http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:06:11 [JF]
agenda+ be done
15:07:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
15:07:33 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:07:38 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, +1.720.342.aaaa, ??P39, Eric, +44.207.391.aabb, [Microsoft], ??P11, Michael_Cooper
15:07:44 [JF]
agenda loaded
15:08:28 [janina]
Maybe that needs to be Hickson's problem
15:08:28 [JF]
zakim, aaa is rich
15:08:28 [Zakim]
sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:08:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:08:33 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger; got it
15:08:43 [JF]
zakim, aaaa is Rich
15:08:43 [Zakim]
sorry, JF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:08:58 [cyns]
zakim, who is on the phone
15:08:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cyns
15:09:04 [cyns]
cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:09:16 [MichaelC]
zakim, aabb is Lynn_Holdsworth
15:09:16 [Zakim]
+Lynn_Holdsworth; got it
15:09:21 [cyns]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, ??P39, Eric, Lynn_Holdsworth, [Microsoft], ??P11, Michael_Cooper
15:09:29 [Zakim]
-??P39
15:09:35 [cyns]
zakim, [microsoft] has me
15:09:35 [Zakim]
+cyns; got it
15:09:36 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P11 is Steve_Faulkner
15:09:37 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:10:01 [Zakim]
+??P39
15:10:12 [MRanon]
zakim, P39 is me
15:10:12 [Zakim]
sorry, MRanon, I do not recognize a party named 'P39'
15:10:18 [MRanon]
zakim, ??P39 is me
15:10:18 [Zakim]
+MRanon; got it
15:10:24 [MRanon]
zakim, mute me
15:10:24 [Zakim]
MRanon should now be muted
15:10:30 [JF]
zakim, who's on the phone
15:10:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', JF
15:10:39 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:10:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Eric, Lynn_Holdsworth, [Microsoft], Steve_Faulkner, Michael_Cooper, MRanon (muted)
15:10:41 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has cyns
15:10:47 [judy]
q+
15:11:16 [Stevef]
scribe:Steve_Faulkner
15:11:27 [Stevef]
scribe:Stevef
15:11:29 [MichaelC]
scribeNick: Stevef
15:11:47 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:11:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Forwarded Text Subteam Issues (See Below)" taken up [from JF]
15:12:50 [Stevef]
MC:lets do action reviw and subteam reports
15:12:51 [MichaelC]
agenda?
15:13:06 [MichaelC]
agenda order 3, 4, 1, 2
15:13:07 [LynnH_RNIB]
zakim, mute me
15:13:10 [Zakim]
sorry, LynnH_RNIB, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:13:12 [MichaelC]
zakim, take up item 3
15:13:14 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage" taken up [from JF]
15:13:20 [Stevef]
CYNS: asks for delay in text subteam report until janina, judy presenat
15:13:31 [MichaelC]
q- judy
15:14:28 [Stevef]
JF: made progress yeaterday, in regards to text alternatives and poster img, a pattern where stuff is a child element of the video element
15:15:01 [Stevef]
video takes video descriptions and poster description using aria-describedat
15:15:08 [Stevef]
q+
15:15:49 [Stevef]
JF: question about concatenation of id values content
15:16:01 [JF]
aria-describedby="foo bar"
15:16:03 [Stevef]
not descibedat, describedby
15:16:54 [Stevef]
RS: unclear about how it will work
15:17:18 [Stevef]
JF: in trad video, inside is fallback content
15:17:36 [janina]
Should I post the votes we received overnight via email now?
15:17:54 [Stevef]
JF: onscreen html text embedded in video
15:18:16 [Stevef]
RS: is the text hidden by the video, JF: yes
15:19:53 [Stevef]
JF: silvia sent an email out about the pattern
15:20:28 [Stevef]
JF: authros and user agents need to understand the pattern
15:20:47 [Stevef]
JF: please provide feedback as its important
15:20:55 [Stevef]
ack stevef
15:21:15 [Stevef]
MC: must move on in ten to other items
15:21:35 [Stevef]
RS: outstanding issues, i posted a link
15:21:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0457.html
15:22:30 [Stevef]
RS: we had a meeting chairs reviewed posposal, caveats did not get adressed should be addressed during LC
15:23:05 [Stevef]
RS: wanted to seperate drawing calls, alos problems with text metrics, but never got discussed
15:23:46 [Stevef]
RS: finally, really big thing is providing bounds of objects drawn on canvas, solution is to do hit testing on canvas
15:24:12 [Stevef]
RS: cannot enter defect yet as it will take time to work up
15:24:25 [Stevef]
RS: issue raised on public html
15:24:53 [Stevef]
RS: ian asked for use cases, they were provided, but he didn't repsond
15:25:25 [Stevef]
RS:going into last call still open issues need to be addressed, open up issue 131 after last call
15:26:06 [Stevef]
MC: understand that is an issue for a number of a11y issues
15:26:29 [Stevef]
MC: nothing from bug sub team
15:27:21 [MichaelC]
close action-111
15:27:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-111 Send e-mail message to a11y TF mailing list with a draft summary of the TF consensus position on what exceptions should be allowed for alt-less images (e.g., role=presentation, aria-labeledby, etc.) closed
15:28:14 [MichaelC]
close action-113
15:28:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-113 Create a change proposal for longdesc that includes example of how a user agent might render longdesc information closed
15:28:36 [MichaelC]
close action-114
15:28:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-114 Work with Steve and go through decisions from Lyon and document them regarding HTML-ISSUE-31 closed
15:30:50 [Zakim]
+??P49
15:32:06 [Stevef]
JS: 2 things we need to revisit today
15:32:24 [Stevef]
2 consensus decisions made, need to be rerun
15:33:04 [Stevef]
JS: once last call dealt with should revisit procedures
15:33:09 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P49 is Janina_Sajka
15:33:09 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
15:33:21 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:33:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from JF]
15:33:26 [MichaelC]
zakim, close this item
15:33:26 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:33:27 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:33:28 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:33:28 [Zakim]
1. Forwarded Text Subteam Issues (See Below) [from JF]
15:33:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Forwarded Text Subteam Issues (See Below)" taken up [from JF]
15:33:42 [Stevef]
JS: we need to follow published procedures, must vote on taskforce call
15:33:57 [cyns]
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15:33:58 [Stevef]
JS: must run a wbf
15:34:06 [Stevef]
for 3 days
15:34:12 [JF]
s/wbf/wbs
15:34:49 [Stevef]
RS: what happens with the survey
15:35:14 [Stevef]
JS: is same question
15:36:01 [Stevef]
do you support the proposal, do you support filing a formal objection
15:36:11 [Stevef]
q+
15:36:52 [Stevef]
RS: tring to get a last call published looking for comments, we can still adress these duing call
15:36:54 [JF]
+q
15:37:35 [JF]
+1 to rich
15:37:46 [MichaelC]
ack s
15:38:25 [Stevef]
JS: lets discuss pf yesterday
15:38:44 [Stevef]
JS: will most probably be second last call
15:39:09 [Stevef]
JS: survey may be extended
15:40:01 [Stevef]
JS: PF cannot support last call in its current state, but could support it with inline annotation
15:41:03 [Stevef]
JS: each of us able to vote as individuals
15:41:21 [Stevef]
JF: PF is memebr private, i haven't seen the language
15:41:47 [Stevef]
JF: i cannot comment on it, last call is deep freeze
15:42:08 [Stevef]
JF: when we hit last call stuff will not be added
15:42:49 [Stevef]
JS: there will be continued editors drafts
15:42:55 [Stevef]
after last call
15:43:28 [Stevef]
JF: wg being asked to vote on moving goal posts
15:44:20 [Stevef]
RS: there are so many thiongs not addressed on a11y, all of a sudden we are going to last call
15:44:58 [Stevef]
CYNS: its risky to slow it down
15:45:47 [Stevef]
CYNS: HTML5 needs to meet it milestone and schedule and longdesc is not the thing to block it on
15:45:54 [Stevef]
q+
15:46:04 [JF]
ack JF
15:46:07 [JF]
+jf
15:46:18 [JF]
+q
15:46:41 [Stevef]
JS: i am most troubled by html4 features are not there
15:47:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
q+
15:48:29 [JF]
+1 to SteveF
15:50:32 [cyns]
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15:50:44 [cyns]
q?
15:50:50 [cyns]
q+
15:50:54 [Stevef]
JF: they knew this was an issue and played games with longdesc
15:51:00 [Stevef]
ack stevef
15:51:08 [Stevef]
acl JF
15:51:13 [Stevef]
ack JF
15:51:56 [Stevef]
JF: impression inside the wg that accessibility issues have no stop action
15:52:22 [MichaelC]
ack r
15:52:44 [Stevef]
RS: not rying to give priority to a11y issues, all i want to hear from the chairs of the html wg is that the last call draft includes accessibility issues
15:53:00 [Stevef]
RS: i have provided the issues
15:53:44 [Stevef]
JS: i want to see it in writing
15:54:07 [Stevef]
sorry RS: in writing
15:55:14 [Stevef]
JF: if they put it in writing then it will be ok
15:58:36 [cyns]
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15:58:48 [JF]
RESOLUTION:
15:58:50 [JF]
The Task Force supports the Issue 30 Change Proposal at:
15:58:51 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
15:59:08 [Stevef]
+1
15:59:16 [JF]
+1
15:59:30 [MRanon]
+1
15:59:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
+1
15:59:34 [LynnH_RNIB]
+1
16:00:12 [cyns]
-1
16:00:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
-1
16:00:51 [eric_carlson]
-1
16:00:59 [cyns]
without this bullet, I could support it
16:01:01 [cyns]
It is unlikely that many content creators or developers will learn ARIA (something not native HTML). They already feel like they've learned far more than they should have to know under their job description. And in many cases, their supervisors agree. (reference Cliff Tyllick)"
16:01:46 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc/AlternativesAreNotViableSolutions#aria-describedat
16:01:52 [Zakim]
-Eric
16:02:16 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
16:03:02 [Stevef]
i agree that "It is unlikely that many content creators or developers will learn ARIA (something not native HTML). They already feel like they've learned far more than they should have to know under their job description. And in many cases, their supervisors agree. (reference Cliff Tyllick)" should be removed
16:03:18 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
16:06:23 [Zakim]
-MRanon
16:06:24 [Zakim]
-Janina_Sajka
16:07:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
+1 if that sentence is removed
16:08:55 [MRanon]
(I can live with that sentence, but I want the highest chaces of success for the CP, so happy to let it go)
16:09:20 [JF]
+1 to MRanon's point
16:10:10 [janina]
My phone is back, but I'm getting conference restricted when I call
16:10:29 [janina]
Cynthia has me
16:11:23 [cyns]
cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:11:28 [janina]
Cynthia also dropped, you need to call both of us
16:11:32 [janina]
I'm at 202.494.7040
16:11:53 [cyns]
michael, I'll send my number in email
16:11:54 [MichaelC]
zakim, drop c
16:11:54 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a party named 'c'
16:12:01 [MichaelC]
zakim, drop microsoft
16:12:01 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] is being disconnected
16:12:02 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:12:19 [MichaelC]
zakim, room for 15?
16:12:22 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-a11y)16:12Z scheduled with code 2119 (A11Y) for 60 minutes until 1712Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
16:12:32 [Zakim]
-Steve_Faulkner
16:12:33 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
16:12:35 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
16:12:46 [Zakim]
-Lynn_Holdsworth
16:12:58 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:12:59 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:12:59 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:13:00 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Foliot, +1.720.342.aaaa, Eric, +44.207.391.aabb, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Lynn_Holdsworth, cyns, Steve_Faulkner, MRanon, Janina_Sajka
16:13:04 [Zakim]
apparently WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended, MichaelC
16:13:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cyns, MikeSmith, MichaelC, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, LynnH_RNIB, janina, richardschwerdtfe, MRanon, judy, Stevef, davidb, [tm], trackbot
16:13:16 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
16:13:18 [Zakim]
Team_(html-a11y)16:12Z has now started
16:13:23 [Zakim]
MichaelC, this was already Team_(html-a11y)16:12Z
16:13:24 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches Team_(html-a11y)16:12Z
16:13:30 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
16:13:40 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:13:49 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:13:52 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
16:13:58 [Zakim]
+Janina
16:14:23 [MichaelC]
zakim, Ipcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:14:23 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:14:25 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:14:35 [MichaelC]
zakim, Microsoft has Cynthia
16:14:35 [Zakim]
+Cynthia; got it
16:15:10 [Zakim]
+Lynn_Holdsworth
16:16:03 [Stevef]
ok
16:16:42 [Stevef]
JF: longdesc is worth fighting for, has become symbolic of the brokeness of accessibility support
16:16:57 [Stevef]
JS: strategic value is high
16:17:27 [Stevef]
CYNS: that is part of the problem, it has lots of good things in it
16:18:26 [Stevef]
JF: we have more proof and evidence that longdesc should stay in HTML5
16:18:30 [LynnH_RNIB]
zakim, mute me
16:18:30 [Zakim]
sorry, LynnH_RNIB, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:19:06 [Stevef]
JF: consensus is not unanimity
16:19:58 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
16:20:05 [Stevef]
JS: can't pull it in time
16:21:36 [LynnH_RNIB]
Zakim, I am Lynn
16:21:36 [Zakim]
ok, LynnH_RNIB, I now associate you with Lynn_Holdsworth
16:23:28 [JF]
RESOLUTION:
16:23:30 [JF]
The Task Force supports a Formal Objection escalation should it appear that HTML last call is to be published without the longdesc as in our supported proposal
16:23:37 [janina]
+1
16:23:41 [cyns]
cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:23:44 [janina]
Laura_Carlson, Leonie_Watson, Geoff_Freed, Joshue_OConnor, Gez_Lemon voting yes by email
16:23:46 [JF]
+1
16:23:49 [cyns]
-1
16:24:05 [janina]
Silvia_Pfeiffer, Charlesr_ McCathieNevile, Sean_Hayes gvoting no by email
16:24:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
-1
16:24:22 [LynnH_RNIB]
+1
16:24:23 [JF]
Leif H. silli by email +1
16:24:34 [MRanon]
+1
16:25:26 [Stevef]
+1
16:30:14 [Stevef]
gotta go bye
16:31:32 [Zakim]
-Steve_Faulkner
16:35:42 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
16:35:47 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:35:48 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:35:48 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
16:35:52 [Zakim]
-Lynn_Holdsworth
16:36:15 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
16:41:30 [laura]
laura has joined #html-a11y
16:44:00 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has joined #html-a11y
16:44:52 [MichaelC]
trackbot, end meeting
16:44:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:44:52 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, John_Foliot, Janina, Steve_Faulkner, Cynthia, Lynn_Holdsworth
16:44:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:44:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-html-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
16:44:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:44:54 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items