IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:22:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:22:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:22:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
21:22:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
21:22:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
21:22:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:22:13 [trackbot]
Date: 18 May 2011
21:22:36 [JF]
21:22:38 [JF]
scribe: JF
21:22:39 [JF]
agenda: this
21:22:41 [JF]
agenda+Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs
21:22:42 [JF]
agenda+Paused Media: Continuing Discussion
21:22:44 [JF]
agenda+ Actions Review
21:22:45 [JF]
agenda+Other Business?
21:22:47 [JF]
agenda+ be done
21:23:29 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum12
21:23:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'remove agendum12', JF
21:23:43 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 12
21:23:43 [Zakim]
agendum 12, Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs, dropped
21:23:52 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 13
21:23:52 [Zakim]
agendum 13, Paused Media: Continuing Discussion, dropped
21:23:59 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 14
21:23:59 [Zakim]
agendum 14, Actions Review, dropped
21:24:07 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 15
21:24:07 [Zakim]
agendum 15, Other Business?, dropped
21:24:15 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 16
21:24:15 [Zakim]
agendum 16, be done, dropped
21:25:26 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has now started
21:25:33 [Zakim]
21:27:13 [JF]
zakim, take up agendum 1
21:27:13 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
21:27:21 [JF]
scribe: JF
21:30:43 [silvia]
silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:31:51 [Zakim]
21:31:52 [Zakim]
21:31:55 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
21:32:17 [Zakim]
21:32:32 [Zakim]
21:33:32 [Zakim]
21:33:37 [Zakim]
21:33:50 [Zakim]
21:33:51 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
21:33:51 [Zakim]
21:33:51 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
21:34:05 [JF]
zakim, ??P2 is Janina
21:34:05 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
21:34:16 [janina]
zakim, ??P2 is Janina
21:34:16 [Zakim]
I already had ??P2 as Janina, janina
21:34:47 [JF]
zakim, agenda?
21:34:47 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
21:34:49 [Zakim]
3. Text Subteam Issues [from janina]
21:34:52 [Zakim]
4. Role Presentation [from janina]
21:34:54 [Zakim]
5. Title [from janina]
21:34:57 [Zakim]
6. Fig-Caption [from janina]
21:35:00 [Zakim]
7. Longdesc [from janina]
21:35:02 [Zakim]
8. Actions Review [from janina]
21:35:03 [Zakim]
9. Other Business [from janina]
21:35:04 [Zakim]
10. Identify Scribe for 19 May [from janina]
21:35:06 [Zakim]
11. be done [from janina]
21:35:06 [Zakim]
21:35:25 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 3
21:35:25 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Text Subteam Issues, dropped
21:35:32 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 4
21:35:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Role Presentation, dropped
21:35:32 [Bob_Lund]
Bob_Lund has joined #html-a11y
21:35:38 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 5
21:35:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Title, dropped
21:35:40 [janina]
zakim, ??P1 is Bob_Lund
21:35:41 [Zakim]
+Bob_Lund; got it
21:35:44 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 6
21:35:44 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Fig-Caption, dropped
21:35:48 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 7
21:35:48 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Longdesc, dropped
21:35:52 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 8
21:35:52 [Zakim]
agendum 8, Actions Review, dropped
21:35:57 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 9
21:35:57 [Zakim]
agendum 9, Other Business, dropped
21:36:11 [JF]
zakim, agenda?
21:36:11 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
21:36:13 [Zakim]
10. Identify Scribe for 19 May [from janina]
21:36:16 [Zakim]
11. be done [from janina]
21:36:20 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 10
21:36:20 [Zakim]
agendum 10, Identify Scribe for 19 May, dropped
21:36:24 [JF]
zakim, remove agendum 11
21:36:24 [Zakim]
agendum 11, be done, dropped
21:37:12 [JF]
agenda+Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs
21:37:14 [JF]
agenda+Paused Media: Continuing Discussion
21:37:15 [JF]
agenda+ Actions Review
21:37:17 [JF]
agenda+Other Business?
21:37:18 [JF]
agenda+ be done
21:37:34 [JF]
zakim, next agendum
21:37:34 [Zakim]
agendum 17. "Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs" taken up [from JF]
21:38:02 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
21:38:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see JF, silvia (muted), Janina, Bob_Lund
21:38:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Bob_Lund, janina, silvia, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, Zakim, [tm], trackbot
21:38:17 [janina]
regrets: Judy_Brewer
21:40:14 [JF]
JS: this is what Sean discovered about Clear audio - it's clean Audio
21:40:16 [Zakim]
21:40:44 [JF]
once we made this discovery, we were able to find documentation
21:40:58 [JF]
suggests thta we change our docs as well as list of @kind
21:41:50 [JF]
initial premise is in a 5:1 setting, the center channel is dedicated to dialog, thus if we can reduce/remove the other channels it will allow for better comprehension
21:42:35 [JF]
seems that this is UK based, although picked up by ETSI
21:43:42 [JF]
21:44:11 [JF]
JS: seems that Silvia has already corrected the wiki
21:44:29 [JF]
we need to discuss changing our @kind for this
21:44:33 [JF]
is there any dissention?
21:44:42 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
21:44:42 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
21:45:10 [JF]
JS: less clear is the implication supporting this understanding of clean audio
21:45:19 [JF]
with respect to control and our user-requirements
21:45:31 [JF]
21:46:04 [JF]
SP: looked at clean audio as a track-level problem
21:46:32 [JF]
we would have a track that hadd all audio content, and a second track with only the speech audio
21:47:11 [JF]
however when analized this there are actually 2 ways of doing and delivering this
21:47:24 [JF]
one is a 3 channel - left, right and speech
21:47:48 [JF]
that remains one audio track (interleaved)
21:48:35 [JF]
5:1 audio is similar as well
21:49:02 [JF]
but now they are replacing the center channel with just speech, which allows people to increase the vlume of center to replicate clean audio
21:49:58 [JF]
SP: question is how to get control of the center track
21:50:24 [JF]
EC: additional problem and serious problem, is that most container formats cannot 3 or 5 channel audio
21:50:39 [JF]
it can only be stereo or mono
21:51:00 [JF]
for example mpeg 1 and mpeg3
21:51:19 [JF]
very little today is encoded in anything but stereo
21:51:52 [JF]
SP: the 3 relevant formats can (I believe) support multi-track formats, but therer are likely few files like that in the wild
21:52:17 [JF]
and it pushes the problem into a larger area, and one that we cannot handle with JavaScript
21:52:38 [JF]
prefer we create a new @kind called 'speech" which would be an individual speech track
21:53:09 [JF]
EC: think this is the right way forward as well
21:57:58 [JF]
SP: the API we have shold handle this. the ETSI spec is just a spec, don't believe there is any implementation in the wild to date
21:58:38 [JF]
(Eric and Janina are provisional agreement, bob doesn't have an informed opin)
21:59:19 [JF]
SP: suggest we put this on the list, see if there is any opposition to @kind of speech, and if no opposition then change the bugs to reflect this change
21:59:35 [JF]
JS: perhaps invite somebody with experience with Clean audio to speak with us
21:59:49 [JF]
SP: would LOVE to have somebody with experience to consult with us
22:00:11 [JF]
if janina can find somebody that would be highly appreciated
22:00:57 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:00:57 [Zakim]
agendum 18. "Paused Media: Continuing Discussion" taken up [from JF]
22:01:27 [JF]
SP: does it make sense to start a new thread?
22:01:48 [JF]
(Question was about Clean Audio thread on the list)
22:02:00 [JF]
JS: Paused media, where are we?
22:02:16 [JF]
there has been a lot of discussion on list, including some new issues bob has introduced
22:02:23 [JF]
not clear where to start
22:02:35 [JF]
SP: an interesting week on that topic
22:02:43 [JF]
we have trickled out a lot of thoughts
22:03:00 [JF]
in my mind what we have started doing and where we are is very iunclear
22:03:17 [JF]
started a list a few days ago, and should be updated on the dimensions we are trying to grapple with
22:03:29 [JF]
one dimension is whether we have a graphical or text only browser
22:03:43 [JF]
may be a side issue, but spills into this discussion as a use-case
22:03:58 [JF]
the other is the video player design, how do we expose that textually?
22:04:05 [JF]
to the accessibility API?
22:04:14 [JF]
then what to do with the representative frame?
22:04:25 [JF]
relates back to the missing autoplay attribute
22:04:54 [JF]
another use-case is how we represent the video content short description, a longer description and full transcript
22:05:25 [JF]
and then the still image need for short and long descriptions
22:05:55 [JF]
SP: trying to keep the use-case clear and separate without looking at 'solutions' at this time
22:07:08 [janina]
scribenic: janina
22:07:37 [janina]
jf: If I'm understanding Silvia correctly, then I agree with this.
22:07:51 [janina]
jf: Believe it comprehends the distinctions I've been trying to represent all along.
22:08:12 [janina]
jf: If yes, think we've captured the requirements.
22:08:19 [silvia]
summary is also at
22:08:21 [janina]
ec: Well, I may disagree
22:08:41 [janina]
jf: Tried carefully not to go to solutions but to state the needs, the user requirements
22:09:01 [janina]
jf: Don't know how to answer "don't agree" when it's about user reqs ...
22:09:24 [janina]
sp: Eric, what do you disagree with
22:09:37 [janina]
ec: separate representation of the first frame
22:10:01 [janina]
sp: that's the next step, i haven't gone there yet
22:11:43 [janina]
sp: Next step would be to group things together, and create cnadidate ml
22:12:49 [janina]
sp: trying to keep emotion out of this and find the best way to ml, based on good req understanding
22:13:58 [janina]
jf: looking at the list in email -- graphical browser -- but think textual description for still images is missing
22:15:21 [janina]
jf: if no visual text, we're not obligated to supply text to AT
22:15:34 [janina]
jf: But, if graphic, we neet the graphic alternatives, short and long
22:16:49 [janina]
jf: so what happens when there's no poster summary, but a poster?
22:17:44 [janina]
jf: also agree that whether a first frame or external image is immaterial
22:18:36 [janina]
ec: thought we were proposing descriptions ov video to supply to at for those who couldn't see the image
22:18:53 [janina]
jf: if there's imagery on screen, it requires both a short and long description mechanism
22:20:17 [janina]
jf: image and imagery are substantively the same for this purpose
22:21:00 [janina]
janina: suggesting the short and long descriptions are fully in sync with longstanding wcag guidance
22:22:03 [janina]
sp: do we need separate descriptions for video and the paused representation
22:22:11 [janina]
jf: yes, because they describe different things
22:22:22 [janina]
sp: why not one follow the other?
22:23:21 [janina]
jf: we have the video element, it's the player chrome. it needs a11y name, etc., and we put things in this player including the video/audio when we press play
22:23:48 [janina]
jf: the other thing inside that container, when the video isn't playing is a still image which needs description
22:24:07 [janina]
sp: but if it was presented in the summary, does it need to be repeated?
22:24:20 [janina]
jf: depends on how presented to the user
22:24:33 [janina]
jf: what happens when i pause at 4 secs? poster, no.
22:25:05 [janina]
jp: not that we need to describe every frame, but it may be useful to describe certain internal video frames
22:26:27 [janina]
sp: so i want to go back to the use case of chapters, subchapters, etc
22:26:41 [janina]
jf: except, this may be a useful way to handle that
22:28:13 [janina]
sp: we remove an entire level of complexity if we can sequentially satisfy this
22:28:24 [janina]
jf: want to check with several people for feedback
22:28:50 [janina]
jf: question of what happens when the poster frame doesn't actually say anything about the video
22:29:12 [janina]
sp: You can still add that text.
22:30:02 [janina]
ec: by definition whatever is in the first frame is related to the video
22:30:44 [janina]
ec: if we decide we need a second representation of that frame, we also need to decide when at presents that data
22:31:10 [janina]
ec: e.g., if autoplay is on, you never get there
22:31:37 [janina]
sp: which why i thought it should be regarded as background to the video
22:32:10 [janina]
jf: but it's not a background image, background image has certain meanings, and this isn't it
22:32:39 [janina]
sp: yes, same problem with button
22:33:08 [janina]
jf: probably not likely though
22:34:02 [Zakim]
22:34:03 [Zakim]
22:34:35 [janina]
sp: with css?
22:34:50 [janina]
janina: pf is looking at it, rather behind on our css coordination
22:36:32 [janina]
jf: the issue with autoplay is one key reason why i was pushing child element
22:36:43 [janina]
sp: but it also doesn't solve the problem
22:37:01 [janina]
jf: but it's a child of video in the dom, whether or not it takes an external image
22:37:37 [janina]
sp: not technically possible
22:37:52 [janina]
jf: not so sure, it can take on properties, e.g. description
22:39:27 [janina]
sp: what to do in the fallback case? when it doesn't understand video element
22:39:47 [janina]
sp: a broken image in the browser
22:40:08 [janina]
jf: it's not an image element, it's a new element, so older browser that don't understand video won't understand this one either
22:40:33 [janina]
ec: that frame is only displayed until video is started, and never again
22:41:46 [janina]
jf: users wfor whom this matters will all turn autoplay off
22:42:22 [janina]
janina: absolutely
22:42:44 [janina]
jf: so users for whom this matters will see all the dexcriptions before starting the video
22:43:37 [janina]
janina: what about when the video is stopped and the page reloaded
22:43:45 [janina]
ec: it's reset
22:43:51 [janina]
jf: is that wrong?
22:44:15 [Zakim]
22:45:13 [janina]
ec: just don't understand why you need to separately describe something that's only there as a standin until the video starts
22:46:50 [janina]
sp: we need to solve the problem that covers both circumstances, first frame, chosen frame, or external image
22:48:29 [janina]
sp: why not a div or p inside the frame
22:48:35 [janina]
jf: no, because no semantec meaning
22:49:13 [janina]
jf: are you saying the description of the static image is the same as the description of the video?
22:49:32 [janina]
sp: i think it's one thing that goes into the default fallback
22:50:18 [Zakim]
22:54:03 [JF]
22:54:05 [JF]
22:54:06 [JF]
22:54:08 [JF]
<p>A Clockwork Orange Trailer</p>
22:54:09 [JF]
<p>(A short description of what the sighted user sees) A clockwork orange poster</p>
22:54:11 [JF]
How do I provide the long textual description that is 4 paragraphs long?
22:54:12 [JF]
22:56:33 [silvia]
<video src="file.mp4" poster="file.png" aria-describedby="posteralt videosummary">
22:56:58 [janina]
jf: remember short description is read auto; but the longer description is only invoked by the user
22:57:07 [silvia]
<p id="videosummary">A Clockwork Orange Trailer</p>
22:58:01 [janina]
sp: we'll always need to go to a link for longder; which is where transcription came in
22:58:13 [silvia]
<p id="posteralt">A clockwork orange poster</p>
22:58:15 [silvia]
22:58:31 [janina]
jf: but the longer description is not part of the transcript
22:58:44 [janina]
jf: also the id attrib doesn't map to a11y apis
22:59:23 [janina]
sp: can we focus just on short alts for now?
23:00:30 [janina]
jf: i'm already seeing you have children of video, which is correct, imho
23:00:59 [janina]
sp: nice that video gives a way to hide text on page without hacks
23:02:20 [silvia]
<video src="file.mp4" poster="file.png" aria-describedby="posteralt videosummary">
23:03:21 [silvia]
<p id="videosummary">A Clockwork Orange Trailer (<a href="transcript.html">Transcript</a>)</p>
23:04:24 [silvia]
<p id="posteralt">Poster frame is a clockwork orange movie poster (<a href="transcript.html#posterlongdesc">long description</a>)</p>
23:04:26 [silvia]
23:05:26 [silvia]
actually, here's an even better one:
23:05:43 [silvia]
<video src="file.mp4" poster="file.png" aria-describedby="posteralt videosummary" transcript="transcript.html">
23:05:51 [silvia]
p id="videosummary">A Clockwork Orange Trailer (<a href="transcript.html">Transcript</a>)</p>
23:05:51 [silvia]
<p id="posteralt">Poster frame is a clockwork orange movie poster (<a href="transcript.html#posterlongdesc">long description</a>)</p>
23:06:17 [silvia]
<p><a href="file.mp4">Download the video file</a></p>
23:06:18 [silvia]
23:07:30 [janina]
sp: will allow a right click on transcript
23:08:42 [janina]
jf: this feels right
23:08:58 [janina]
jf: want to review aria roles,to make sure we can get that in
23:15:18 [janina]
jf: think this might work, will check around with several people
23:15:26 [janina]
sp: we should make sure this solves all our reqs
23:23:01 [Zakim]
23:30:52 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:30:53 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were JF, silvia, Janina, Bob_Lund, Eric
23:30:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:31:00 [janina]
rrsagent make draft public
23:31:07 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
23:31:14 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:31:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina