21:22:08 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:22:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-html-a11y-irc
21:22:10 RRSAgent, make logs world
21:22:12 Zakim, this will be 2119
21:22:12 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
21:22:13 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:22:13 Date: 18 May 2011
21:22:36 Chair: Janina_Sajka
21:22:38 scribe: JF
21:22:39 agenda: this
21:22:41 agenda+ Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs
21:22:42 agenda+ Paused Media: Continuing Discussion
21:22:44 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:22:45 agenda+ Other Business?
21:22:47 agenda+ be done
21:23:29 zakim, remove agendum12
21:23:29 I don't understand 'remove agendum12', JF
21:23:43 zakim, remove agendum 12
21:23:43 agendum 12, Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs, dropped
21:23:52 zakim, remove agendum 13
21:23:52 agendum 13, Paused Media: Continuing Discussion, dropped
21:23:59 zakim, remove agendum 14
21:23:59 agendum 14, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:24:07 zakim, remove agendum 15
21:24:07 agendum 15, Other Business?, dropped
21:24:15 zakim, remove agendum 16
21:24:15 agendum 16, be done, dropped
21:25:26 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has now started
21:25:33 +JF
21:27:13 zakim, take up agendum 1
21:27:13 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
21:27:21 scribe: JF
21:30:43 silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:31:51 +??P1
21:31:52 +??P2
21:31:55 janina has joined #html-a11y
21:32:17 -??P2
21:32:32 +??P2
21:33:32 -??P2
21:33:37 +silvia
21:33:50 +??P2
21:33:51 zakim, mute me
21:33:51 -??P1
21:33:51 silvia should now be muted
21:34:05 zakim, ??P2 is Janina
21:34:05 +Janina; got it
21:34:16 zakim, ??P2 is Janina
21:34:16 I already had ??P2 as Janina, janina
21:34:47 zakim, agenda?
21:34:47 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
21:34:49 3. Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html [from janina]
21:34:52 4. Role Presentation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0271.html [from janina]
21:34:54 5. Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle [from janina]
21:34:57 6. Fig-Caption http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0210.html [from janina]
21:35:00 7. Longdesc http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc [from janina]
21:35:02 8. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
21:35:03 9. Other Business [from janina]
21:35:04 10. Identify Scribe for 19 May http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
21:35:06 11. be done [from janina]
21:35:06 +??P1
21:35:25 zakim, remove agendum 3
21:35:25 agendum 3, Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html, dropped
21:35:32 zakim, remove agendum 4
21:35:32 agendum 4, Role Presentation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0271.html, dropped
21:35:32 Bob_Lund has joined #html-a11y
21:35:38 zakim, remove agendum 5
21:35:38 agendum 5, Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle, dropped
21:35:40 zakim, ??P1 is Bob_Lund
21:35:41 +Bob_Lund; got it
21:35:44 zakim, remove agendum 6
21:35:44 agendum 6, Fig-Caption http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0210.html, dropped
21:35:48 zakim, remove agendum 7
21:35:48 agendum 7, Longdesc http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc, dropped
21:35:52 zakim, remove agendum 8
21:35:52 agendum 8, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:35:57 zakim, remove agendum 9
21:35:57 agendum 9, Other Business, dropped
21:36:11 zakim, agenda?
21:36:11 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
21:36:13 10. Identify Scribe for 19 May http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
21:36:16 11. be done [from janina]
21:36:20 zakim, remove agendum 10
21:36:20 agendum 10, Identify Scribe for 19 May http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, dropped
21:36:24 zakim, remove agendum 11
21:36:24 agendum 11, be done, dropped
21:37:12 agenda+ Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs
21:37:14 agenda+ Paused Media: Continuing Discussion
21:37:15 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:37:17 agenda+ Other Business?
21:37:18 agenda+ be done
21:37:34 zakim, next agendum
21:37:34 agendum 17. "Clean Audio: Adjusting our Kinds and our docs" taken up [from JF]
21:38:02 zakim, who's here?
21:38:02 On the phone I see JF, silvia (muted), Janina, Bob_Lund
21:38:04 On IRC I see Bob_Lund, janina, silvia, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, Zakim, [tm], trackbot
21:38:17 regrets: Judy_Brewer
21:40:14 JS: this is what Sean discovered about Clear audio - it's clean Audio
21:40:16 +Eric
21:40:44 once we made this discovery, we were able to find documentation
21:40:58 suggests thta we change our docs as well as list of @kind
21:41:50 initial premise is in a 5:1 setting, the center channel is dedicated to dialog, thus if we can reduce/remove the other channels it will allow for better comprehension
21:42:35 seems that this is UK based, although picked up by ETSI
21:43:42 see: www.etsi.org
21:44:11 JS: seems that Silvia has already corrected the wiki
21:44:29 we need to discuss changing our @kind for this
21:44:33 is there any dissention?
21:44:42 zakim, unmute me
21:44:42 silvia should no longer be muted
21:45:10 JS: less clear is the implication supporting this understanding of clean audio
21:45:19 with respect to control and our user-requirements
21:45:31 s/control/controls
21:46:04 SP: looked at clean audio as a track-level problem
21:46:32 we would have a track that hadd all audio content, and a second track with only the speech audio
21:47:11 however when analized this there are actually 2 ways of doing and delivering this
21:47:24 one is a 3 channel - left, right and speech
21:47:48 that remains one audio track (interleaved)
21:48:35 5:1 audio is similar as well
21:49:02 but now they are replacing the center channel with just speech, which allows people to increase the vlume of center to replicate clean audio
21:49:58 SP: question is how to get control of the center track
21:50:24 EC: additional problem and serious problem, is that most container formats cannot 3 or 5 channel audio
21:50:39 it can only be stereo or mono
21:51:00 for example mpeg 1 and mpeg3
21:51:19 very little today is encoded in anything but stereo
21:51:52 SP: the 3 relevant formats can (I believe) support multi-track formats, but therer are likely few files like that in the wild
21:52:17 and it pushes the problem into a larger area, and one that we cannot handle with JavaScript
21:52:38 prefer we create a new @kind called 'speech" which would be an individual speech track
21:53:09 EC: think this is the right way forward as well
21:57:58 SP: the API we have shold handle this. the ETSI spec is just a spec, don't believe there is any implementation in the wild to date
21:58:38 (Eric and Janina are provisional agreement, bob doesn't have an informed opin)
21:59:19 SP: suggest we put this on the list, see if there is any opposition to @kind of speech, and if no opposition then change the bugs to reflect this change
21:59:35 JS: perhaps invite somebody with experience with Clean audio to speak with us
21:59:49 SP: would LOVE to have somebody with experience to consult with us
22:00:11 if janina can find somebody that would be highly appreciated
22:00:57 zakim, next item
22:00:57 agendum 18. "Paused Media: Continuing Discussion" taken up [from JF]
22:01:27 SP: does it make sense to start a new thread?
22:01:48 (Question was about Clean Audio thread on the list)
22:02:00 JS: Paused media, where are we?
22:02:16 there has been a lot of discussion on list, including some new issues bob has introduced
22:02:23 not clear where to start
22:02:35 SP: an interesting week on that topic
22:02:43 we have trickled out a lot of thoughts
22:03:00 in my mind what we have started doing and where we are is very iunclear
22:03:17 started a list a few days ago, and should be updated on the dimensions we are trying to grapple with
22:03:29 one dimension is whether we have a graphical or text only browser
22:03:43 may be a side issue, but spills into this discussion as a use-case
22:03:58 the other is the video player design, how do we expose that textually?
22:04:05 to the accessibility API?
22:04:14 then what to do with the representative frame?
22:04:25 relates back to the missing autoplay attribute
22:04:54 another use-case is how we represent the video content short description, a longer description and full transcript
22:05:25 and then the still image need for short and long descriptions
22:05:55 SP: trying to keep the use-case clear and separate without looking at 'solutions' at this time
22:07:08 scribenic: janina
22:07:37 jf: If I'm understanding Silvia correctly, then I agree with this.
22:07:51 jf: Believe it comprehends the distinctions I've been trying to represent all along.
22:08:12 jf: If yes, think we've captured the requirements.
22:08:19 summary is also at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0367.html
22:08:21 ec: Well, I may disagree
22:08:41 jf: Tried carefully not to go to solutions but to state the needs, the user requirements
22:09:01 jf: Don't know how to answer "don't agree" when it's about user reqs ...
22:09:24 sp: Eric, what do you disagree with
22:09:37 ec: separate representation of the first frame
22:10:01 sp: that's the next step, i haven't gone there yet
22:11:43 sp: Next step would be to group things together, and create cnadidate ml
22:12:49 sp: trying to keep emotion out of this and find the best way to ml, based on good req understanding
22:13:58 jf: looking at the list in email -- graphical browser -- but think textual description for still images is missing
22:15:21 jf: if no visual text, we're not obligated to supply text to AT
22:15:34 jf: But, if graphic, we neet the graphic alternatives, short and long
22:16:49 jf: so what happens when there's no poster summary, but a poster?
22:17:44 jf: also agree that whether a first frame or external image is immaterial
22:18:36 ec: thought we were proposing descriptions ov video to supply to at for those who couldn't see the image
22:18:53 jf: if there's imagery on screen, it requires both a short and long description mechanism
22:20:17 jf: image and imagery are substantively the same for this purpose
22:21:00 janina: suggesting the short and long descriptions are fully in sync with longstanding wcag guidance
22:22:03 sp: do we need separate descriptions for video and the paused representation
22:22:11 jf: yes, because they describe different things
22:22:22 sp: why not one follow the other?
22:23:21 jf: we have the video element, it's the player chrome. it needs a11y name, etc., and we put things in this player including the video/audio when we press play
22:23:48 jf: the other thing inside that container, when the video isn't playing is a still image which needs description
22:24:07 sp: but if it was presented in the summary, does it need to be repeated?
22:24:20 jf: depends on how presented to the user
22:24:33 jf: what happens when i pause at 4 secs? poster, no.
22:25:05 jp: not that we need to describe every frame, but it may be useful to describe certain internal video frames
22:26:27 sp: so i want to go back to the use case of chapters, subchapters, etc
22:26:41 jf: except, this may be a useful way to handle that
22:28:13 sp: we remove an entire level of complexity if we can sequentially satisfy this
22:28:24 jf: want to check with several people for feedback
22:28:50 jf: question of what happens when the poster frame doesn't actually say anything about the video
22:29:12 sp: You can still add that text.
22:30:02 ec: by definition whatever is in the first frame is related to the video
22:30:44 ec: if we decide we need a second representation of that frame, we also need to decide when at presents that data
22:31:10 ec: e.g., if autoplay is on, you never get there
22:31:37 sp: which why i thought it should be regarded as background to the video
22:32:10 jf: but it's not a background image, background image has certain meanings, and this isn't it
22:32:39 sp: yes, same problem with button
22:33:08 jf: probably not likely though
22:34:02 +Eric.a
22:34:03 -Eric
22:34:35 sp: with css?
22:34:50 janina: pf is looking at it, rather behind on our css coordination
22:36:32 jf: the issue with autoplay is one key reason why i was pushing child element
22:36:43 sp: but it also doesn't solve the problem
22:37:01 jf: but it's a child of video in the dom, whether or not it takes an external image
22:37:37 sp: not technically possible
22:37:52 jf: not so sure, it can take on properties, e.g. description
22:39:27 sp: what to do in the fallback case? when it doesn't understand video element
22:39:47 sp: a broken image in the browser
22:40:08 jf: it's not an image element, it's a new element, so older browser that don't understand video won't understand this one either
22:40:33 ec: that frame is only displayed until video is started, and never again
22:41:46 jf: users wfor whom this matters will all turn autoplay off
22:42:22 janina: absolutely
22:42:44 jf: so users for whom this matters will see all the dexcriptions before starting the video
22:43:37 janina: what about when the video is stopped and the page reloaded
22:43:45 ec: it's reset
22:43:51 jf: is that wrong?
22:44:15 -Eric.a
22:45:13 ec: just don't understand why you need to separately describe something that's only there as a standin until the video starts
22:46:50 sp: we need to solve the problem that covers both circumstances, first frame, chosen frame, or external image
22:48:29 sp: why not a div or p inside the frame
22:48:35 jf: no, because no semantec meaning
22:49:13 jf: are you saying the description of the static image is the same as the description of the video?
22:49:32 sp: i think it's one thing that goes into the default fallback
22:50:18 -Bob_Lund
22:54:03
22:56:33
22:58:31 jf: but the longer description is not part of the transcript
22:58:44 jf: also the id attrib doesn't map to a11y apis
22:59:23 sp: can we focus just on short alts for now?
23:00:30 jf: i'm already seeing you have children of video, which is correct, imho
23:00:59 sp: nice that video gives a way to hide text on page without hacks
23:02:20
23:05:26 actually, here's an even better one:
23:05:43
23:05:51 Poster frame is a clockwork orange movie poster (long description)
23:06:17 Download the video file
23:06:18
23:07:30 sp: will allow a right click on transcript
23:08:42 jf: this feels right
23:08:58 jf: want to review aria roles,to make sure we can get that in
23:15:18 jf: think this might work, will check around with several people
23:15:26 sp: we should make sure this solves all our reqs
23:23:01 -silvia
23:30:52 zakim, bye
23:30:53 leaving. As of this point the attendees were JF, silvia, Janina, Bob_Lund, Eric
23:30:53 Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:31:00 rrsagent make draft public
23:31:07 rrsagent, make log public
23:31:14 rrsagent, make minutes
23:31:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-html-a11y-minutes.html janina