IRC log of css on 2011-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:39:38 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:39:43 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:39:43 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
15:39:49 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:54:19 [stearns]
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15:54:38 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
15:54:38 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
15:55:22 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:30 [Zakim]
15:55:39 [Zakim]
15:56:25 [Zakim]
15:56:32 [glazou]
Zakim, ?P33 is me
15:56:32 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P33'
15:56:40 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:56:40 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:56:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.290.aaaa
15:57:52 [Zakim]
15:58:02 [Zakim]
15:58:14 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:58:14 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:21 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is fantasai
15:58:21 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
15:58:25 [vhardy]
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15:58:37 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
15:58:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see stearns, plinss, fantasai, glazou
15:58:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see vhardy, stearns, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Martijnc, arno, kojiishi, unomi, szilles, shepazu, CSSWG_LogBot, karl, lhnz, krijnh, TabAtkins, hober, fantasai,
15:58:41 [Zakim]
... plinss, Bert, Hixie, gsnedders, jgraham, trackbot
15:58:44 [stearns]
zakim, aaa is vhardy
15:58:44 [Zakim]
sorry, stearns, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:59:00 [smfr]
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15:59:02 [stearns]
zakim, aaaa is vhardy
15:59:02 [Zakim]
sorry, stearns, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:59:10 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is vhardy
15:59:10 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:59:17 [plinss]
zakim, fantasai is vhardy
15:59:17 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
15:59:28 [plinss]
zakim, who is here?
15:59:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see stearns, plinss, vhardy, glazou
15:59:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see smfr, vhardy, stearns, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Martijnc, arno, kojiishi, unomi, szilles, shepazu, CSSWG_LogBot, karl, lhnz, krijnh, TabAtkins, hober,
15:59:31 [Zakim]
... fantasai, plinss, Bert, Hixie, gsnedders, jgraham, trackbot
15:59:41 [oyvinds]
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15:59:49 [Zakim]
16:00:28 [Zakim]
16:00:29 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:00:52 [Zakim]
16:01:01 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has me
16:01:01 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:01:12 [Zakim]
16:01:13 [johnjan]
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16:01:33 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft has johnjan
16:01:33 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
16:01:52 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
16:03:28 [Zakim]
16:03:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aabb
16:04:10 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is fantasai
16:04:10 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:04:43 [Zakim]
16:04:50 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p11 is me
16:04:50 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:04:56 [glazou]
ScribeNick: vhardy
16:05:09 [Zakim]
16:05:26 [TabAtkins]
Last-minute regrets - in a meeting.
16:05:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aacc
16:05:36 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is arronei
16:05:42 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is arno
16:05:54 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:06:00 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:06:13 [fantasai]
is there an agenda?
16:06:15 [murakami]
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16:06:19 [arno]
Zakim, aacc is arno
16:06:22 [Zakim]
sorry, arno, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:06:26 [howcome]
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16:06:31 [Zakim]
16:06:45 [vhardy]
glazou: The listserv at W3C has issues. I sent the agenda yesterday evening. It can take a ong time to see an email in your inbox.
16:07:07 [vhardy]
glazou: this is for W3C mailing lists in general, not just the CSS lists.
16:07:23 [vhardy]
arno: some of the email just seem to never make it to my inbox.
16:07:35 [vhardy]
glazou: this happened to me too.
16:07:43 [vhardy]
arno: yes, I do not see other people's email.
16:08:01 [vhardy]
glazou: other agenda items?
16:08:11 [Zakim]
16:08:17 [vhardy]
vhardy: will we have a meeting next week?
16:08:33 [vhardy]
glazou: not sure, we have a chairing problem.
16:08:45 [vhardy]
fantasai: may be Bert can char?
16:08:57 [vhardy]
glazou; yes, I'lll try to find a replacement.
16:08:59 [glazou]
16:09:25 [vhardy]
glazou: please respond to the questionaire about the next F2F.
16:09:33 [plinss]
16:09:59 [vhardy]
glazou: please also fill out the information about your flight and arrival/departure info.
16:10:43 [vhardy]
glazou: agenda items for Kyoto meeting. For now, we have CSS Regions/Exclusions, etc... (see above link).
16:10:49 [vhardy]
glazou: are there other items?
16:10:49 [Zakim]
16:12:13 [vhardy]
Hakon: could we discuss the multi-col test suite?
16:12:39 [Zakim]
16:12:45 [vhardy]
hakon: the test suite is a start.
16:12:50 [vhardy]
glazou: how complete is it?
16:13:01 [vhardy]
hakon: it is a bit short on functionality.
16:13:11 [vhardy]
hakon: we need more test cases for edge cases.
16:13:35 [vhardy]
hakon: we would like to reach about 200 tests.
16:13:55 [vhardy]
hakon: we currently have about 20.
16:14:11 [vhardy]
hakon: I think Microsoft has between 50 and 100 tests.
16:14:55 [vhardy]
johnjan: It is Microsoft's intention to contribute the tests.
16:15:16 [vhardy]
glazou: other agenda items?
16:15:23 [johnjan]
we just want to make sure we're not going to submit a bunch of duplicates to the opera tests
16:15:35 [vhardy]
glazou: anything else about Kyoto?
16:15:45 [smfr]
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16:15:48 [vhardy]
plinss: I'll be there a few days in advance.
16:16:07 [alexmog]
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16:16:47 [vhardy]
vhardy: the SVG WG will not meet in Kyoto.
16:16:56 [vhardy]
glazou: yes, we had a message from them.
16:17:30 [vhardy]
glazou: Cameron McCormak sent a message on May 12th. The SVG WG will reschedule the meeting likely late July in the US.
16:18:00 [vhardy]
glazou: next agenda item. CSS 2.1 review period ended yesterday.
16:18:12 [vhardy]
glazou: 23 answers. 21 are ok-go ahead. 2 are requesting changes.
16:18:35 [vhardy]
glazou: some of the changes sent by Mohamed are related to references.
16:19:10 [vhardy]
glazou: David from Mozilla had a comment about issue 225. Nokia mentioned it to. Saying we could add it to the document since it is resolved.
16:19:33 [vhardy]
glazou: if we have add the resolution to the document, it could delay things. I would propose to move as fast as possible.
16:19:46 [vhardy]
fantasai: Bert said the director could agree to make that change.
16:20:03 [vhardy]
glazou: I am worried about a technical change that is not just editorial.
16:20:13 [vhardy]
fantasai: I think the Director should make that decision.
16:20:26 [vhardy]
fantasai: nobody objects to the change.
16:20:53 [vhardy]
glazou: the Director could also be worried that not everybody reviewed the issue 225 resolution.
16:21:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: That should be the director's call.
16:21:21 [vhardy]
glazou: our responsibility as chairs is to decide on what we should recommend for the director.
16:21:34 [vhardy]
glazou: unfortunately, Bert is not on the call.
16:21:43 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't think we should recommend against the chagne
16:21:48 [fantasai]
16:22:02 [vhardy]
glazou: If we can make some of the changes Mohamed recommended.
16:22:36 [vhardy]
glazou: please remind your AC rep. about PR release about 2.1
16:22:49 [glazou]
16:22:49 [vhardy]
glazou: let's move to other agenda items.
16:23:51 [vhardy]
vhardy: what do I need to do to prepare for WD publication.
16:24:22 [vhardy]
fantasai: talk to me and Bert off-line.
16:24:27 [vhardy]
vhardy: ok, will do.
16:24:56 [vhardy]
glazou: did you incorporate comments in the draft.
16:25:05 [vhardy]
vhardy: I am in the process to do that.
16:25:23 [vhardy]
glazou: we cannot make a decision to publish to WD because we do not have enough attendance in that call.
16:25:36 [vhardy]
glazou: I propose we wait until next week if we have a call or decide during the F2F.
16:25:49 [vhardy]
glazou: next item, we can talk about namespaces.
16:26:04 [vhardy]
glazou: I had an AI to ping the i18n WG.
16:26:34 [vhardy]
kojiishi: Actually, this was just discussed in the i18n meeting earlier today.
16:26:58 [vhardy]
kojiishi: we should have an answer by next week.
16:27:17 [vhardy]
glazou: I hope it will not imply a lot of changes. If it does not, we can publish.
16:27:23 [vhardy]
glazou: anything else on that topic?
16:27:31 [vhardy]
glazou: anything else we should discuss today?
16:27:46 [fantasai]
zakim, who is here?
16:27:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see stearns, plinss, vhardy, glazou, smfr, [Microsoft], [Apple], [Microsoft.a], fantasai, kojiishi, arronei, howcome, bradk
16:27:48 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has johnjan
16:27:48 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
16:27:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alexmog, smfr, murakami, bradk, johnjan, oyvinds, vhardy, stearns, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Martijnc, arno, kojiishi, unomi, szilles, CSSWG_LogBot, karl,
16:27:52 [Zakim]
... lhnz, krijnh, TabAtkins, hober, fantasai, plinss, Bert, Hixie, gsnedders, jgraham, trackbot
16:29:17 [vhardy]
fantasai: I have a question about what to do about the intric width of multi-col elements.
16:29:35 [vhardy]
hakon: I do not think this is a multi-col specific issue.
16:29:53 [vhardy]
hakon: I think this is an issue that we need to address, just not as a multi-col issue.
16:30:40 [vhardy]
glazou: do you mean that the algorithm to compute the width of columns is orthogonal to the widht of the elements themselves.
16:30:47 [vhardy]
16:30:57 [vhardy]
fantasai: where should I address this?
16:31:22 [vhardy]
fantasai: we need to define the shrink wrap algorithm for table and other use cases.
16:32:01 [vhardy]
fantasai: I would like if this issue should be left undefined or if we should add it to the appendix of wrapping mode.
16:32:27 [vhardy]
hakon: yes, I think you should do.
16:33:13 [vhardy]
fantasai: multi-col has special considerations, such as the max-content-width that is different for multi-col elements.
16:34:35 [vhardy]
hakon: I do not think we should single out the multi-col elements.
16:35:50 [vhardy]
fantasai: describes a use case with multi-column where there are specificities.
16:36:22 [vhardy]
hakon: we have simplified the multi-column specification.
16:36:43 [vhardy]
fantasai: I would like to address these use cases.
16:41:41 [fantasai]
we have 3 options
16:41:44 [vhardy]
fantasai: we have 3 options:
16:41:54 [fantasai]
a) leave shrinkwrap undefined, as currently in css3-multicol
16:42:16 [fantasai]
b) define shrinkwrap to ignore multi-col properties, calculate as if columns weren't there
16:42:31 [fantasai]
c) define shrinkwrap with consideration of multicol properties
16:44:29 [vhardy]
hakon: there is already interoperable implementations of shrinkwrap in multi-col. It is not documented, but it is interoperably implemented.
16:44:48 [vhardy]
hakon: if we document it, it should document current implementation.
16:45:06 [vhardy]
galzou: fantasai says that the current impls. do not cover all scripts.
16:45:19 [vhardy]
fantasai: yes, and other more complicated use cases we have not though of yet.
16:45:29 [vhardy]
glazou: so we are not ready yet to standardize that?
16:45:59 [vhardy]
fantasai: no, it is just that shrinkwrapping multi-col elements is that it is more important than we thought.
16:46:19 [vhardy]
glazou: we have a pretty stable multi-col spec. that we can move along the spec. track.
16:46:39 [vhardy]
glazou: the shrinkwrap algorithm needs to be extended separately, and implementors will have to do their work.
16:46:48 [vhardy]
hakon: yes, I agree.
16:47:06 [vhardy]
hakon: if there are new use cases, we could address them in a later spec.
16:47:25 [vhardy]
glazou: yes, if we wait to address all use cases, we will drag the effort.
16:47:37 [vhardy]
fantasai: I am not asking to modify the multi-col spec.
16:47:51 [vhardy]
hakon: but you are asking to specifiy multi-col functionality in a different spec.
16:48:15 [vhardy]
glazou: do we have a proposal?
16:48:20 [vhardy]
fantasai: yes.
16:48:33 [vhardy]
glazou: we need the whole group to be present for this discussion.
16:48:53 [vhardy]
glazou: we cannot resolve it today. We can discuss it next week or during the F2F.
16:49:17 [vhardy]
glazou: changing something in the feature related to the relation between two specification is something we can still discuss.
16:49:54 [vhardy]
glazou: in the meantime, I propose we make progress on the multi-col spec. and make progress on the test suite, move it along as it is today. We have implementations, use cases on the web.
16:49:59 [vhardy]
fantasai: ok with me.
16:50:04 [vhardy]
hakon: ok with me.
16:51:04 [vhardy]
glazou: no change in the multi-col spec. for now. We will discuss shrinkwrap issues related to multi-col with hakon present.
16:51:45 [vhardy]
plinss: I proposed change to mercurial. Did not hear any objection. Planning to make the change today.
16:52:04 [vhardy]
fantasai: do we have documentation on the mercurial client.
16:52:50 [vhardy]
arronei: I have concerned about the documentation as well. We would need a place with documentation.
16:53:03 [vhardy]
fantasai: we would need instructions for common functionality.
16:53:15 [vhardy]
plinss: I can put this together.
16:53:26 [vhardy]
fantasai: documenting merge process would be great.
16:54:38 [vhardy]
(discussion about CVS/SVN merits)
16:56:45 [vhardy]
glazou: any objection to move to mercurial?
16:56:51 [vhardy]
fantasai: none if we have instructions.
16:56:57 [vhardy]
(no objection)
16:57:01 [fantasai]
very simple, clear, easy-to-follow instructions
16:57:08 [vhardy]
RESOLUTION: moving test suite to mercurial.
16:57:08 [fantasai]
not "here's a link to the manual" :)
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17:03:04 [Zakim]
17:03:05 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were stearns, plinss, glazou, +1.415.290.aaaa, vhardy, smfr, arronei, hober, [Microsoft], johnjan, bradk, +1.415.920.aabb, fantasai, kojiishi, +1.415.832.aacc, howcome
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