14:59:11 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc
14:59:13 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:13 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:59:15 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:15 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:16 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:16 Date: 12 May 2011
14:59:34 paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:59:50 zakim, this is 2119
14:59:50 MichaelC, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
15:00:11 JF has joined #html-a11y
15:00:40 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:00:47 +Michael_Cooper
15:01:02 +??P24
15:01:23 +JF
15:01:30 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:01:54 zakim, ??P24 is Janina_Sajka
15:01:54 +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:02:09 +??P4
15:02:28 zakim, ??P4 is Steve_Faulkner
15:02:28 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:02:32 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:02:32 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:02:32 agenda: this
15:02:32 agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:02:32 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:02:33 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
15:02:35 agenda+ Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
15:02:37 agenda+ Role Presentation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0271.html
15:02:39 agenda+ Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
15:02:41 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle
15:02:43 agenda+ Fig-Caption http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0210.html
15:02:46 agenda+ Longdesc http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
15:02:49 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:02:51 agenda+ Other Business
15:02:53 agenda+ Identify Scribe for 19 May http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:02:55 agenda+ be done
15:02:57 LeifHSilli has joined #html-a11y
15:03:00 +Judy
15:03:16 judy has joined #html-a11y
15:03:42 zakim, who's here?
15:03:42 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy
15:03:45 On IRC I see judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:04:15 +??P5
15:04:20 Zakim, ??P5
15:04:20 I don't understand '??P5', MikeSmith
15:04:26 Zakim, ??P5 is me
15:04:26 +MikeSmith; got it
15:04:28 zakim, who's here?
15:04:28 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith
15:04:31 On IRC I see judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:04:44 mranon has joined #html-a11y
15:05:45 +[Microsoft]
15:06:04 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:06:04 +paulc; got it
15:06:41 zakim, pick a victim
15:06:41 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Judy
15:06:48 zakim, pick a victim
15:06:48 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose paulc
15:06:58 zakim, pick a victim
15:06:58 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JF
15:07:07 +??P7
15:07:21 zakim, ??P7 is Marco_Ranon
15:07:21 +Marco_Ranon; got it
15:07:26 zackim, P7 is me
15:07:28 zakim, mute marco
15:07:28 Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:07:39 scribe: MichaelC
15:07:41 Zakim, mute me
15:07:41 MikeSmith should now be muted
15:08:07 chair: Janina_Sajka
15:08:10 zakim, close item 1
15:08:14 zakim, next item
15:08:17 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
15:08:18 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:20 2. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage [from janina]
15:08:22 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:08:23 jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up
15:08:24 agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina]
15:08:40 == media ==
15:08:52 discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element
15:09:14 js: request for stable URI for
15:09:30 also need to work on navigational concerns
15:09:34 == canvas ==
15:09:39
15:09:44 == bug triage ==
15:10:31 mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week
15:10:39 gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many
15:10:47 gave rationales for each
15:10:49 no major highlights
15:10:59 zakim, mute marco
15:10:59 Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:11:21 == ARIA mapping ==
15:11:35 cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call
15:11:39 lots of work to do
15:11:43 have identified starter points
15:11:52 js: that meets just before this call?
15:11:55 cs: yes, for now
15:11:59 js: need help?
15:12:02 cs: yes
15:12:09 zakim, who's here?
15:12:09 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Cynthia_Shelly
15:12:11 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:12:12 On IRC I see mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:12:14 splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map
15:12:42 js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June
15:13:11 zakim, next item
15:13:11 agendum 3. "Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html" taken up [from janina]
15:13:13 Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
15:13:37 jb: 7-8 issues on the table
15:14:01
15:14:25 jf: re meta name = generator
15:14:29 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
15:14:38 leif has done a lot of work
15:14:44 creating a change proposal in wiki
15:14:50 still work to do
15:14:58 rich will try to join later
15:15:13 jb: expect work in near future?
15:15:28 jf: yes, but more to do in wiki
15:15:33 jb: role=presentation
15:15:41 being dealt with by bugs
15:15:50 RRSAgent, make minutes
15:15:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:16:11 cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to role=presentation
15:16:28 concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation
15:16:52 author doesn't know what they're doing in this case
15:16:54 talked with david singer
15:17:06 +q
15:17:24 since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning / accessibility evaluation issue
15:17:32 not a validator error
15:17:51 jb: need to check support for this?
15:18:40 jb: over to Steve for title
15:18:56 +Eric
15:19:00 Leif making a case
15:19:13 sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on
15:19:18 jb: ready for discussion within tf?
15:19:20 sf: yes
15:19:24 jb: figcaption
15:19:25 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:19:33 would like to take off urgent track
15:20:06 recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do
15:20:13 cs: taking off urgent track is good
15:20:16 jb: longdesc
15:20:32 were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura
15:20:41 kept getting additional suggestions
15:20:51 want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment
15:20:55 jb: poster alt
15:21:18 jf: being discussed in media subteam
15:21:24 alternative text for paused video
15:21:28 same problem from different angle
15:21:50 active discussion, strong divide in opinion
15:22:16 there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt
15:22:24 not pursuing further at moment
15:22:54 jb: table summary
15:23:03 gregory working on, but out this week
15:23:07 probably taking off urgent path
15:23:12 jb: location of alt guidance
15:23:22 clear disagreement with HTML WG decision
15:23:29 probably will address on non-urgent basis
15:23:46 jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc
15:23:48 q+
15:24:07 but first, bug support issue
15:24:32 cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements
15:24:39 but after discussion we view as not a big deal
15:25:12 do we need to push more?
15:25:29 ack j
15:25:46 jf: if which wins?
15:25:51 cs: role=presentation wins
15:25:54 but it's author error
15:26:07 from a validation perspective it's allowed
15:26:16 might be a warning
15:26:27 note validator doesn't know if alt is important
15:26:49 changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error
15:27:16 topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not restricting alt
15:27:47 js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art
15:28:16 cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work...
15:28:27 can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense
15:28:38 can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes
15:28:50 so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite complex
15:28:56 therefore moves into warning territory
15:29:01 jf: agree sounds like warning
15:29:08 but important to capture the point
15:29:21 js: proposal to file bug
15:29:30 cs: having warning gives a hook
15:30:20 jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss
15:30:29 still needs to come back into text sub-team
15:30:36 not consensus there yet, needs further discussion
15:31:16 cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of perception of flip-flopping
15:31:25 jb: need further conversation on that
15:31:36 group yesterday considered new info
15:32:07 Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif
15:32:20 jb: moving on to title
15:32:26 cs: ok with either there
15:32:29 -Cynthia_Shelly
15:32:46 zakim, who's here?
15:32:46 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Eric
15:32:48 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:32:50 On IRC I see eric_carlson, mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:32:53 +[IBM]
15:33:18 zakim, IBM has Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:33:18 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger; got it
15:33:21 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:33:23 Just want to note the question I consider most important: Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says that aria-labelledby wins. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290
15:33:45 sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence
15:34:12
15:34:22 asked vendors, got inconclusive responses
15:34:46 looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title
15:35:07 but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption
15:35:17 or at least available to all, not to some people some times
15:35:18 +1 to Steve
15:35:38 no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device independent manner
15:35:42 filed a bug a year ago
15:35:47 was rejected
15:36:12
15:36:25 jb: questions?
15:36:50 objections to supporting proposal?
15:36:54 +1
15:36:55 +1
15:37:18 please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal
15:37:23 +1
15:37:24 +1
15:37:30 +1
15:37:31 +1 to steves proposal
15:38:41 rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal?
15:39:01 sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs
15:39:21 Where is Steve's proposal? Link please.
15:39:33 Referenced in the agenda for today ...
15:39:36 main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt
15:39:47 rs: that's just webkit, right?
15:40:22 q+
15:40:58 Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
15:40:58 sf: don't want to promote that approach
15:41:45 q+ to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
15:42:20 rs: clarification?
15:42:32 sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way
15:42:45 rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover
15:42:48 advisory text
15:42:53 +q to this topic
15:43:04 ack me
15:43:04 MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
15:43:09 q-
15:43:54 mc: ARIA allows title as last resort
15:44:04 sf: yes for accessible name
15:44:13 but shouldn't impact graphical rendering
15:44:32 q?
15:45:06 jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors
15:45:19 lots of screen readers by default ignore title
15:45:29 because of redundancy with alt in legacy conetnt
15:45:34