IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-05-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:59:15 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:15 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:16 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:16 [trackbot]
Date: 12 May 2011
14:59:34 [paulc]
paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:59:50 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
14:59:50 [Zakim]
MichaelC, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
15:00:11 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
15:00:40 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:00:47 [Zakim]
15:01:02 [Zakim]
15:01:23 [Zakim]
15:01:30 [Stevef]
Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:01:54 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P24 is Janina_Sajka
15:01:54 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
15:02:09 [Zakim]
15:02:28 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P4 is Steve_Faulkner
15:02:28 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:02:32 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:02:32 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:02:32 [janina]
agenda: this
15:02:32 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:02:32 [janina]
15:02:33 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
15:02:35 [janina]
agenda+ Text Subteam Issues
15:02:37 [janina]
agenda+ Role Presentation
15:02:39 [janina]
agenda+ Title
15:02:41 [janina]
15:02:43 [janina]
agenda+ Fig-Caption
15:02:46 [janina]
agenda+ Longdesc
15:02:49 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:02:51 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
15:02:53 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for 19 May
15:02:55 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:02:57 [LeifHSilli]
LeifHSilli has joined #html-a11y
15:03:00 [Zakim]
15:03:16 [judy]
judy has joined #html-a11y
15:03:42 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
15:03:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy
15:03:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:04:15 [Zakim]
15:04:20 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, ??P5
15:04:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P5', MikeSmith
15:04:26 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
15:04:26 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
15:04:28 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
15:04:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith
15:04:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:04:44 [mranon]
mranon has joined #html-a11y
15:05:45 [Zakim]
15:06:04 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:06:04 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:06:41 [janina]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:41 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Judy
15:06:48 [janina]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:48 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose paulc
15:06:58 [janina]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:58 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JF
15:07:07 [Zakim]
15:07:21 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P7 is Marco_Ranon
15:07:21 [Zakim]
+Marco_Ranon; got it
15:07:26 [mranon]
zackim, P7 is me
15:07:28 [MichaelC]
zakim, mute marco
15:07:28 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:07:39 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
15:07:41 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
15:07:41 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
15:08:07 [MichaelC]
chair: Janina_Sajka
15:08:10 [MichaelC]
zakim, close item 1
15:08:14 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:08:17 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
15:08:18 [Zakim]
I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:20 [Zakim]
2. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage [from janina]
15:08:22 [Zakim]
15:08:23 [MichaelC]
jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up
15:08:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina]
15:08:40 [MichaelC]
== media ==
15:08:52 [MichaelC]
discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element
15:09:14 [MichaelC]
js: request for stable URI for <missed>
15:09:30 [MichaelC]
also need to work on navigational concerns
15:09:34 [MichaelC]
== canvas ==
15:09:39 [MichaelC]
<nobody present>
15:09:44 [MichaelC]
== bug triage ==
15:10:31 [MichaelC]
mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week
15:10:39 [MichaelC]
gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many
15:10:47 [MichaelC]
gave rationales for each
15:10:49 [MichaelC]
no major highlights
15:10:59 [MichaelC]
zakim, mute marco
15:10:59 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:11:21 [MichaelC]
== ARIA mapping ==
15:11:35 [MichaelC]
cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call
15:11:39 [MichaelC]
lots of work to do
15:11:43 [MichaelC]
have identified starter points
15:11:52 [MichaelC]
js: that meets just before this call?
15:11:55 [MichaelC]
cs: yes, for now
15:11:59 [MichaelC]
js: need help?
15:12:02 [MichaelC]
cs: yes
15:12:09 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
15:12:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Cynthia_Shelly
15:12:11 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:12:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:12:14 [MichaelC]
splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map
15:12:42 [MichaelC]
js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June
15:13:11 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
15:13:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Text Subteam Issues" taken up [from janina]
15:13:13 [judy]
Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting:
15:13:37 [MichaelC]
jb: 7-8 issues on the table
15:14:01 [MichaelC]
<lists too fast to scribe>
15:14:25 [MichaelC]
jf: re meta name = generator
15:14:29 [JF]
15:14:38 [MichaelC]
leif has done a lot of work
15:14:44 [MichaelC]
creating a change proposal in wiki
15:14:50 [MichaelC]
still work to do
15:14:58 [Stevef]
rich will try to join later
15:15:13 [MichaelC]
jb: expect work in near future?
15:15:28 [MichaelC]
jf: yes, but more to do in wiki
15:15:33 [MichaelC]
jb: role=presentation
15:15:41 [MichaelC]
being dealt with by bugs
15:15:50 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:15:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
15:16:11 [MichaelC]
cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to role=presentation
15:16:28 [MichaelC]
concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation
15:16:52 [MichaelC]
author doesn't know what they're doing in this case
15:16:54 [MichaelC]
talked with david singer
15:17:06 [JF]
15:17:24 [MichaelC]
since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning / accessibility evaluation issue
15:17:32 [MichaelC]
not a validator error
15:17:51 [MichaelC]
jb: need to check support for this?
15:18:40 [MichaelC]
jb: over to Steve for title
15:18:56 [Zakim]
15:19:00 [MichaelC]
Leif making a case
15:19:13 [MichaelC]
sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on
15:19:18 [MichaelC]
jb: ready for discussion within tf?
15:19:20 [MichaelC]
sf: yes
15:19:24 [MichaelC]
jb: figcaption
15:19:25 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:19:33 [MichaelC]
would like to take off urgent track
15:20:06 [MichaelC]
recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do
15:20:13 [MichaelC]
cs: taking off urgent track is good
15:20:16 [MichaelC]
jb: longdesc
15:20:32 [MichaelC]
were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura
15:20:41 [MichaelC]
kept getting additional suggestions
15:20:51 [MichaelC]
want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment
15:20:55 [MichaelC]
jb: poster alt
15:21:18 [MichaelC]
jf: being discussed in media subteam
15:21:24 [MichaelC]
alternative text for paused video
15:21:28 [MichaelC]
same problem from different angle
15:21:50 [MichaelC]
active discussion, strong divide in opinion
15:22:16 [MichaelC]
there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt
15:22:24 [MichaelC]
not pursuing further at moment
15:22:54 [MichaelC]
jb: table summary
15:23:03 [MichaelC]
gregory working on, but out this week
15:23:07 [MichaelC]
probably taking off urgent path
15:23:12 [MichaelC]
jb: location of alt guidance
15:23:22 [MichaelC]
clear disagreement with HTML WG decision
15:23:29 [MichaelC]
probably will address on non-urgent basis
15:23:46 [MichaelC]
jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc
15:23:48 [paulc]
15:24:07 [MichaelC]
but first, bug support issue
15:24:32 [MichaelC]
cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements
15:24:39 [MichaelC]
but after discussion we view as not a big deal
15:25:12 [MichaelC]
do we need to push more?
15:25:29 [MichaelC]
ack j
15:25:46 [MichaelC]
jf: if <img src=foo alt=important role=presentation> which wins?
15:25:51 [MichaelC]
cs: role=presentation wins
15:25:54 [MichaelC]
but it's author error
15:26:07 [MichaelC]
from a validation perspective it's allowed
15:26:16 [MichaelC]
might be a warning
15:26:27 [MichaelC]
note validator doesn't know if alt is important
15:26:49 [MichaelC]
changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error
15:27:16 [MichaelC]
topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not restricting alt
15:27:47 [MichaelC]
js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art
15:28:16 [MichaelC]
cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work...
15:28:27 [MichaelC]
can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense
15:28:38 [MichaelC]
can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes
15:28:50 [MichaelC]
so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite complex
15:28:56 [MichaelC]
therefore moves into warning territory
15:29:01 [MichaelC]
jf: agree sounds like warning
15:29:08 [MichaelC]
but important to capture the point
15:29:21 [MichaelC]
js: proposal to file bug
15:29:30 [MichaelC]
cs: having warning gives a hook
15:30:20 [MichaelC]
jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss
15:30:29 [MichaelC]
still needs to come back into text sub-team
15:30:36 [MichaelC]
not consensus there yet, needs further discussion
15:31:16 [MichaelC]
cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of perception of flip-flopping
15:31:25 [MichaelC]
jb: need further conversation on that
15:31:36 [MichaelC]
group yesterday considered new info
15:32:07 [MichaelC]
Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif
15:32:20 [MichaelC]
jb: moving on to title
15:32:26 [MichaelC]
cs: ok with either there
15:32:29 [Zakim]
15:32:46 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
15:32:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Eric
15:32:48 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:32:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see eric_carlson, mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:32:53 [Zakim]
15:33:18 [MichaelC]
zakim, IBM has Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:33:18 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger; got it
15:33:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:33:23 [LeifHSilli]
Just want to note the question I consider most important: Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says that aria-labelledby wins. See
15:33:45 [MichaelC]
sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence
15:34:12 [MichaelC]
<something about input devices>
15:34:22 [MichaelC]
asked vendors, got inconclusive responses
15:34:46 [MichaelC]
looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title
15:35:07 [MichaelC]
but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption
15:35:17 [MichaelC]
or at least available to all, not to some people some times
15:35:18 [JF]
+1 to Steve
15:35:38 [MichaelC]
no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device independent manner
15:35:42 [MichaelC]
filed a bug a year ago
15:35:47 [MichaelC]
was rejected
15:36:12 [MichaelC]
<re needing mouse to display title>
15:36:25 [MichaelC]
jb: questions?
15:36:50 [MichaelC]
objections to supporting proposal?
15:36:54 [janina]
15:36:55 [mranon]
15:37:18 [judy]
please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal
15:37:23 [janina]
15:37:24 [mranon]
15:37:30 [judy]
15:37:31 [JF]
+1 to steves proposal
15:38:41 [MichaelC]
rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal?
15:39:01 [MichaelC]
sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs
15:39:21 [paulc]
Where is Steve's proposal? Link please.
15:39:33 [janina]
Referenced in the agenda for today ...
15:39:36 [MichaelC]
main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt
15:39:47 [MichaelC]
rs: that's just webkit, right?
15:40:22 [MichaelC]
15:40:58 [paulc]
15:40:58 [MichaelC]
sf: don't want to promote that approach
15:41:45 [MichaelC]
q+ to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title as last resort
15:42:20 [MichaelC]
rs: clarification?
15:42:32 [MichaelC]
sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way
15:42:45 [MichaelC]
rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover
15:42:48 [MichaelC]
advisory text
15:42:53 [JF]
+q to this topic
15:43:04 [MichaelC]
ack me
15:43:04 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title as last resort
15:43:09 [paulc]
15:43:54 [MichaelC]
mc: ARIA allows title as last resort
15:44:04 [MichaelC]
sf: yes for accessible name
15:44:13 [MichaelC]
but shouldn't impact graphical rendering
15:44:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:45:06 [MichaelC]
jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors
15:45:19 [MichaelC]
lots of screen readers by default ignore title
15:45:29 [MichaelC]
because of redundancy with alt in legacy conetnt
15:45:34 [MichaelC]
15:45:57 [MichaelC]
because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put in both places
15:46:34 [MichaelC]
jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion?
15:46:56 [MichaelC]
rs: support
15:47:14 [MichaelC]
my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned off
15:47:17 [MichaelC]
that's not something I support
15:47:25 [MichaelC]
important to separate functionality of alt and tilte
15:47:31 [MichaelC]
15:47:41 [MichaelC]
jb: proposing change?
15:47:53 [JF]
akc JF
15:48:09 [MichaelC]
rs: supporting Steve's
15:48:10 [JF]
ack JF
15:48:10 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to this topic
15:48:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
I support Steve Faulkner's proposal
15:48:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
on title
15:48:59 [JF]
zakim, who's here?
15:48:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Eric, [IBM]
15:48:59 [MichaelC]
pc: note Leif not here
15:49:01 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:49:03 [Zakim]
[IBM] has Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:49:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, eric_carlson, mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:49:09 [MichaelC]
js: was on Monday, other discussions
15:49:16 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:49:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
15:49:29 [MichaelC]
pc: proposal has a number of "new information"
15:49:39 [MichaelC]
is there a companion rationale to reopen decision?
15:49:41 [judy]
Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title?
15:49:44 [MichaelC]
jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed
15:49:51 [MichaelC]
sf: rationale is that there is new info
15:51:12 [MichaelC]
jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look for consensus but not necessarily unanimity
15:51:27 [MichaelC]
at moment think we have that
15:51:43 [MichaelC]
suggest we declare TF consensus
15:52:02 [MichaelC]
js: think we have that now
15:52:14 [MichaelC]
were specific that the question would be called in this call
15:53:04 [paulc]
15:54:58 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change proposal at and recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG
15:55:16 [MichaelC]
jb: moving back to longdesc
15:55:18 [MichaelC]
ack p
15:55:30 [MichaelC]
pc: trying to understand goal at the moment
15:55:38 [MichaelC]
current proposal being constantly updated
15:55:39 [paulc] updated on may 12
15:55:44 [judy]
===== longdesc =====
15:55:47 [judy]
15:56:03 [MichaelC]
change proposals not necessarily expected to be static
15:56:10 [MichaelC]
it's before the WG now
15:56:19 [paulc]
15:56:29 [MichaelC]
chairs track these things at above link
15:56:50 [MichaelC]
jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this
15:57:07 [MichaelC]
she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to change
15:57:23 [MichaelC]
so put on agenda here to measure support from task force
15:58:09 [MichaelC]
who supports Laura's proposal as is right now?
15:58:26 [JF]
15:58:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:58:43 [MichaelC]
no responses, is the issue that it's still changing?
15:58:45 [MichaelC]
ack jf
15:59:00 [MichaelC]
jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning
15:59:08 [MichaelC]
want to see final version
15:59:11 [MichaelC]
ack r
15:59:26 [MichaelC]
15:59:48 [JF]
+1 to Rich's comments
15:59:51 [MichaelC]
think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users
16:00:32 [MichaelC]
jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes
16:00:47 [MichaelC]
to PC, what is process expectation?
16:01:11 [MichaelC]
pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so jetlag...
16:01:26 [MichaelC]
hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next week
16:01:42 [MichaelC]
will enter our queue
16:01:57 [MichaelC]
jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen?
16:01:59 [MichaelC]
pc: yes
16:02:07 [MichaelC]
though we have already started discussing this
16:02:31 [MichaelC]
and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST
16:02:50 [JF]
bye all
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:29 [MikeSmith]
16:03:30 [MikeSmith]
16:03:36 [MikeSmith]
will be
16:03:57 [MichaelC]
topic: Next week
16:04:03 [MichaelC]
Mike to chair, Steve to scrivbe
16:04:03 [Zakim]
16:04:09 [Zakim]
16:04:09 [Zakim]
16:04:09 [MichaelC]
16:04:10 [Zakim]
16:04:12 [Zakim]
16:04:15 [Zakim]
16:04:23 [Zakim]
16:04:29 [Zakim]
16:05:06 [MichaelC]
zakim, drop marco
16:05:09 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon is being disconnected
16:05:12 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:05:12 [Stevef]
Stevef has left #html-a11y
16:05:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith, paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:05:24 [MichaelC]
scribeOptions: -final
16:05:25 [MichaelC]
trackbot, end meeting
16:05:25 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:05:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:05:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:05:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:05:27 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items