14:59:11 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 14:59:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc 14:59:13 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:59:13 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 14:59:15 Zakim, this will be 2119 14:59:15 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 14:59:16 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:59:16 Date: 12 May 2011 14:59:34 paulc has joined #html-a11y 14:59:50 zakim, this is 2119 14:59:50 MichaelC, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119". 15:00:11 JF has joined #html-a11y 15:00:40 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started 15:00:47 +Michael_Cooper 15:01:02 +??P24 15:01:23 +JF 15:01:30 Stevef has joined #html-a11y 15:01:54 zakim, ??P24 is Janina_Sajka 15:01:54 +Janina_Sajka; got it 15:02:09 +??P4 15:02:28 zakim, ??P4 is Steve_Faulkner 15:02:28 +Steve_Faulkner; got it 15:02:32 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 15:02:32 Chair: Janina_Sajka 15:02:32 agenda: this 15:02:32 agenda+ Identify Scribe 15:02:32 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List 15:02:33 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage 15:02:35 agenda+ Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html 15:02:37 agenda+ Role Presentation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0271.html 15:02:39 agenda+ Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle 15:02:41 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle 15:02:43 agenda+ Fig-Caption http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0210.html 15:02:46 agenda+ Longdesc http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc 15:02:49 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 15:02:51 agenda+ Other Business 15:02:53 agenda+ Identify Scribe for 19 May http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List 15:02:55 agenda+ be done 15:02:57 LeifHSilli has joined #html-a11y 15:03:00 +Judy 15:03:16 judy has joined #html-a11y 15:03:42 zakim, who's here? 15:03:42 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy 15:03:45 On IRC I see judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot 15:04:15 +??P5 15:04:20 Zakim, ??P5 15:04:20 I don't understand '??P5', MikeSmith 15:04:26 Zakim, ??P5 is me 15:04:26 +MikeSmith; got it 15:04:28 zakim, who's here? 15:04:28 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith 15:04:31 On IRC I see judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot 15:04:44 mranon has joined #html-a11y 15:05:45 +[Microsoft] 15:06:04 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc 15:06:04 +paulc; got it 15:06:41 zakim, pick a victim 15:06:41 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Judy 15:06:48 zakim, pick a victim 15:06:48 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose paulc 15:06:58 zakim, pick a victim 15:06:58 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JF 15:07:07 +??P7 15:07:21 zakim, ??P7 is Marco_Ranon 15:07:21 +Marco_Ranon; got it 15:07:26 zackim, P7 is me 15:07:28 zakim, mute marco 15:07:28 Marco_Ranon should now be muted 15:07:39 scribe: MichaelC 15:07:41 Zakim, mute me 15:07:41 MikeSmith should now be muted 15:08:07 chair: Janina_Sajka 15:08:10 zakim, close item 1 15:08:14 zakim, next item 15:08:17 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed 15:08:18 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:08:20 2. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage [from janina] 15:08:22 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:08:23 jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up 15:08:24 agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina] 15:08:40 == media == 15:08:52 discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element 15:09:14 js: request for stable URI for 15:09:30 also need to work on navigational concerns 15:09:34 == canvas == 15:09:39 15:09:44 == bug triage == 15:10:31 mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week 15:10:39 gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many 15:10:47 gave rationales for each 15:10:49 no major highlights 15:10:59 zakim, mute marco 15:10:59 Marco_Ranon should now be muted 15:11:21 == ARIA mapping == 15:11:35 cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call 15:11:39 lots of work to do 15:11:43 have identified starter points 15:11:52 js: that meets just before this call? 15:11:55 cs: yes, for now 15:11:59 js: need help? 15:12:02 cs: yes 15:12:09 zakim, who's here? 15:12:09 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Cynthia_Shelly 15:12:11 [Microsoft] has paulc 15:12:12 On IRC I see mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot 15:12:14 splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map 15:12:42 js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June 15:13:11 zakim, next item 15:13:11 agendum 3. "Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html" taken up [from janina] 15:13:13 Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html 15:13:37 jb: 7-8 issues on the table 15:14:01 15:14:25 jf: re meta name = generator 15:14:29 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming 15:14:38 leif has done a lot of work 15:14:44 creating a change proposal in wiki 15:14:50 still work to do 15:14:58 rich will try to join later 15:15:13 jb: expect work in near future? 15:15:28 jf: yes, but more to do in wiki 15:15:33 jb: role=presentation 15:15:41 being dealt with by bugs 15:15:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:15:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:16:11 cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to role=presentation 15:16:28 concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation 15:16:52 author doesn't know what they're doing in this case 15:16:54 talked with david singer 15:17:06 +q 15:17:24 since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning / accessibility evaluation issue 15:17:32 not a validator error 15:17:51 jb: need to check support for this? 15:18:40 jb: over to Steve for title 15:18:56 +Eric 15:19:00 Leif making a case 15:19:13 sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on 15:19:18 jb: ready for discussion within tf? 15:19:20 sf: yes 15:19:24 jb: figcaption 15:19:25 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y 15:19:33 would like to take off urgent track 15:20:06 recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do 15:20:13 cs: taking off urgent track is good 15:20:16 jb: longdesc 15:20:32 were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura 15:20:41 kept getting additional suggestions 15:20:51 want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment 15:20:55 jb: poster alt 15:21:18 jf: being discussed in media subteam 15:21:24 alternative text for paused video 15:21:28 same problem from different angle 15:21:50 active discussion, strong divide in opinion 15:22:16 there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt 15:22:24 not pursuing further at moment 15:22:54 jb: table summary 15:23:03 gregory working on, but out this week 15:23:07 probably taking off urgent path 15:23:12 jb: location of alt guidance 15:23:22 clear disagreement with HTML WG decision 15:23:29 probably will address on non-urgent basis 15:23:46 jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc 15:23:48 q+ 15:24:07 but first, bug support issue 15:24:32 cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements 15:24:39 but after discussion we view as not a big deal 15:25:12 do we need to push more? 15:25:29 ack j 15:25:46 jf: if important which wins? 15:25:51 cs: role=presentation wins 15:25:54 but it's author error 15:26:07 from a validation perspective it's allowed 15:26:16 might be a warning 15:26:27 note validator doesn't know if alt is important 15:26:49 changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error 15:27:16 topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not restricting alt 15:27:47 js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art 15:28:16 cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work... 15:28:27 can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense 15:28:38 can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes 15:28:50 so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite complex 15:28:56 therefore moves into warning territory 15:29:01 jf: agree sounds like warning 15:29:08 but important to capture the point 15:29:21 js: proposal to file bug 15:29:30 cs: having warning gives a hook 15:30:20 jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss 15:30:29 still needs to come back into text sub-team 15:30:36 not consensus there yet, needs further discussion 15:31:16 cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of perception of flip-flopping 15:31:25 jb: need further conversation on that 15:31:36 group yesterday considered new info 15:32:07 Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif 15:32:20 jb: moving on to title 15:32:26 cs: ok with either there 15:32:29 -Cynthia_Shelly 15:32:46 zakim, who's here? 15:32:46 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Eric 15:32:48 [Microsoft] has paulc 15:32:50 On IRC I see eric_carlson, mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot 15:32:53 +[IBM] 15:33:18 zakim, IBM has Rich_Schwerdtfeger 15:33:18 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger; got it 15:33:21 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y 15:33:23 Just want to note the question I consider most important: Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says that aria-labelledby wins. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290 15:33:45 sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence 15:34:12 15:34:22 asked vendors, got inconclusive responses 15:34:46 looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title 15:35:07 but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption 15:35:17 or at least available to all, not to some people some times 15:35:18 +1 to Steve 15:35:38 no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device independent manner 15:35:42 filed a bug a year ago 15:35:47 was rejected 15:36:12 15:36:25 jb: questions? 15:36:50 objections to supporting proposal? 15:36:54 +1 15:36:55 +1 15:37:18 please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal 15:37:23 +1 15:37:24 +1 15:37:30 +1 15:37:31 +1 to steves proposal 15:38:41 rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal? 15:39:01 sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs 15:39:21 Where is Steve's proposal? Link please. 15:39:33 Referenced in the agenda for today ... 15:39:36 main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt 15:39:47 rs: that's just webkit, right? 15:40:22 q+ 15:40:58 Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle 15:40:58 sf: don't want to promote that approach 15:41:45 q+ to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation 15:42:20 rs: clarification? 15:42:32 sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way 15:42:45 rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover 15:42:48 advisory text 15:42:53 +q to this topic 15:43:04 ack me 15:43:04 MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation 15:43:09 q- 15:43:54 mc: ARIA allows title as last resort 15:44:04 sf: yes for accessible name 15:44:13 but shouldn't impact graphical rendering 15:44:32 q? 15:45:06 jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors 15:45:19 lots of screen readers by default ignore title 15:45:29 because of redundancy with alt in legacy conetnt 15:45:34 s/conetnt/content/ 15:45:57 because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put in both places 15:46:34 jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion? 15:46:56 rs: support 15:47:14 my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned off 15:47:17 that's not something I support 15:47:25 important to separate functionality of alt and tilte 15:47:31 s/tilte/title/ 15:47:41 jb: proposing change? 15:47:53 akc JF 15:48:09 rs: supporting Steve's 15:48:10 ack JF 15:48:10 JF, you wanted to this topic 15:48:33 I support Steve Faulkner's proposal 15:48:39 on title 15:48:59 zakim, who's here? 15:48:59 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, JF, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), Eric, [IBM] 15:48:59 pc: note Leif not here 15:49:01 [Microsoft] has paulc 15:49:03 [IBM] has Rich_Schwerdtfeger 15:49:05 On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, eric_carlson, mranon, judy, LeifHSilli, Stevef, JF, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot 15:49:09 js: was on Monday, other discussions 15:49:16 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:49:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:49:29 pc: proposal has a number of "new information" 15:49:39 is there a companion rationale to reopen decision? 15:49:41 Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title? 15:49:44 jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed 15:49:51 sf: rationale is that there is new info 15:51:12 jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look for consensus but not necessarily unanimity 15:51:27 at moment think we have that 15:51:43 suggest we declare TF consensus 15:52:02 js: think we have that now 15:52:14 were specific that the question would be called in this call 15:53:04 Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle 15:54:58 RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG 15:55:16 jb: moving back to longdesc 15:55:18 ack p 15:55:30 pc: trying to understand goal at the moment 15:55:38 current proposal being constantly updated 15:55:39 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc updated on may 12 15:55:44 ===== longdesc ===== 15:55:47 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc 15:56:03 change proposals not necessarily expected to be static 15:56:10 it's before the WG now 15:56:19 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-030 15:56:29 chairs track these things at above link 15:56:50 jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this 15:57:07 she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to change 15:57:23 so put on agenda here to measure support from task force 15:58:09 who supports Laura's proposal as is right now? 15:58:26 +q 15:58:39 q+ 15:58:43 no responses, is the issue that it's still changing? 15:58:45 ack jf 15:59:00 jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning 15:59:08 want to see final version 15:59:11 ack r 15:59:26 same 15:59:48 +1 to Rich's comments 15:59:51 think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users 16:00:32 jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes 16:00:47 to PC, what is process expectation? 16:01:11 pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so jetlag... 16:01:26 hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next week 16:01:42 will enter our queue 16:01:57 jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen? 16:01:59 pc: yes 16:02:07 though we have already started discussing this 16:02:31 and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST 16:02:50 bye all 16:03:11 -[Microsoft] 16:03:29 yep 16:03:30 wi 16:03:36 will be 16:03:57 topic: Next week 16:04:03 Mike to chair, Steve to scrivbe 16:04:03 -[IBM] 16:04:09 -Eric 16:04:09 -Judy 16:04:09 s/scrivbe/scribe/ 16:04:10 -Steve_Faulkner 16:04:12 -Janina_Sajka 16:04:15 -Michael_Cooper 16:04:23 -MikeSmith 16:04:29 -JF 16:05:06 zakim, drop marco 16:05:09 Marco_Ranon is being disconnected 16:05:12 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended 16:05:12 Stevef has left #html-a11y 16:05:18 Attendees were Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith, paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger 16:05:24 scribeOptions: -final 16:05:25 trackbot, end meeting 16:05:25 Zakim, list attendees 16:05:26 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:05:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html trackbot 16:05:27 RRSAgent, bye 16:05:27 I see no action items