08:55:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
08:55:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-irc
08:55:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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08:55:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
08:55:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
08:55:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
08:55:55 <trackbot> Date: 11 May 2011
08:56:18 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011May/0054.html
08:56:24 <raphael> Chair: Erik
08:56:29 <raphael> Scribe: Raphael
08:56:35 <raphael> Scribenick: raphael
08:56:42 <raphael> Regrets: Jack
08:57:24 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
08:57:33 <Zakim> + +6421209aaaa
08:57:36 <Zakim> + +33.4.93.00.aabb
08:58:26 <raphael> Present: Raphael, Chris Double
09:00:49 <doublec> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=648595
09:01:23 <Zakim> +Yves
09:01:33 <erik> erik has joined #mediafrag
09:02:42 <Zakim> + +329331aacc
09:03:41 <raphael> Present+ Erik, Yves
09:03:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:04:39 <Zakim> + +46.3.13.48.aadd
09:04:51 <foolip> Zakim, I am aadd
09:04:51 <Zakim> +foolip; got it
09:04:58 <raphael> Present+ foolip
09:05:04 <foolip> Zakim, mute me
09:05:04 <Zakim> foolip should now be muted
09:05:09 <raphael> Topic: 1. Admin
09:05:43 <davy> davy has joined #mediafrag
09:05:49 <raphael> Present+ Davy
09:06:27 <doublec> Zakim: mute me
09:06:31 <raphael> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the last week telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-minutes.html
09:06:34 <davy> +1
09:06:35 <raphael> +1
09:06:36 <erik> +1
09:06:38 <Yves> +1
09:06:42 <raphael> minutes accepted
09:06:52 <raphael> Topic: 2. TEST CASES
09:06:57 <raphael> action-217?
09:06:57 <trackbot> ACTION-217 -- Davy Van Deursen to edit the specification for precising what is the user experience when there is an invalid time range -- due 2011-04-20 -- OPEN
09:06:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/217
09:07:07 <davy> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#media-fragment-semantics
09:07:08 <raphael> close ACTION-217
09:07:09 <trackbot> ACTION-217 Edit the specification for precising what is the user experience when there is an invalid time range closed
09:07:25 <raphael> Davy: section updated in the specification
09:08:35 <raphael> ... this section has now 3 sub-sections: valid media fragments with border cases, invalid media fragments (invalidity detectable looking at the URI), invalid media fragments but information from the source media are required to detect them
09:08:51 <raphael> ... I'm happy to receive comments
09:08:57 <raphael> ... Jack has an action to review it
09:09:13 <raphael> ACTIOn-218?
09:09:13 <trackbot> ACTION-218 -- Jack Jansen to carrefully review the changes made by Davy that will most likely be all over the palce -- due 2011-04-20 -- OPEN
09:09:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/218
09:09:39 <raphael> Raphael: I will send a reminder to Jack to complete this action based on Davy's addition
09:09:58 <raphael> Erik: I like Davy's structure, so if nobody objects, then we go for it
09:10:11 <raphael> ACTION-146?
09:10:11 <trackbot> ACTION-146 -- Jack Jansen to identify any missing test cases for temporal fragments -- due 2010-03-03 -- OPEN
09:10:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/146
09:10:15 <raphael> close action-146
09:10:15 <trackbot> ACTION-146 Identify any missing test cases for temporal fragments closed
09:11:18 <raphael> Erik: this is not anymore relevant as we do not use Corrib now
09:12:06 <raphael> Erik: since last week, there are new threads of discussion
09:12:21 <Zakim> +silvia
09:12:27 <silvia> zakim, mute me
09:12:27 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
09:12:27 <raphael> Davy: Test case for named and temporal fragment combination, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011May/0001.html
09:12:33 <raphael> Present+ Silvia
09:12:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:12:45 <davy> #id=song1&t=10
09:13:22 <raphael> Davy: what is the behavior of the UA when facing the fragment #id=song1&t=10?
09:13:32 <raphael> ... id cannot be combined with another dimension
09:13:49 <raphael> Yves: since you don't know the intent of the author, the best is to ignore the whole fragment
09:13:52 <foolip> Zakim, unmute me
09:13:52 <Zakim> foolip should no longer be muted
09:13:56 <raphael> Davy: I agree with that
09:14:40 <raphael> Philip: I think that the behavior should be the same as if someone does not implement the id dimension at all
09:14:48 <silvia> q+
09:14:48 <raphael> ... since this is what Opera will do in a first place
09:15:10 <doublec> Zakim, unmute me
09:15:10 <Zakim> doublec was not muted, doublec
09:15:15 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
09:15:15 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
09:15:19 <raphael> ... so in this case, it will be treated as #t=10
09:15:22 <Yves> well, not supporting id might still have a rule that says that there is a conflict in the time dimension
09:15:38 <raphael> zakim, ack Silvia
09:15:38 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
09:16:08 <silvia> zakim, mute me
09:16:08 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
09:16:09 <raphael> Silvia: I think the id dimension should also be ignored, so that xywh, t and track will be interpreted
09:16:36 <silvia> it's a kind of "meta"-dimension, which should fall away if details on any of the other dimensions are provided
09:16:41 <raphael> Philip: another suggestion will be that the other dimensions override the id dimension if they are combined
09:17:03 <silvia> same effect :-)
09:17:24 <foolip> not exactly
09:17:31 <davy> #id=song&t=10 -> #t=20&t=10 -> #t=10
09:17:35 <foolip> but close enough, doesn't matter much
09:17:41 <davy> is that what you mean philip?
09:18:13 <Zakim> -Yves
09:18:24 <Zakim> +Yves
09:18:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:18:30 <foolip> davy, I mean that if #id=song is expanded to #t=10&track=audio0, then #id=song&t=40 => #track=audio0&t=40
09:19:00 <Yves> real question is... is 'id' really needed
09:19:44 <foolip> indeed, I've suggested to drop it earlier
09:20:55 <doublec> Zakim, mute me
09:20:55 <Zakim> doublec should now be muted
09:21:07 <raphael> Davy: I have written a number of examples that use media fragments, but none of them really needed the id dimension
09:21:28 <raphael> Raphael: does this group think we should drop the id dimension?
09:21:50 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
09:21:50 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
09:22:10 <raphael> Yves: id is mainly here for chapter names ... this still might be interested for media annotations people
09:22:35 <raphael> Silvia: I think for chapters, it can still be useful, we have use cases for this
09:22:54 <raphael> ... but there is very little media files that expose chapter names out there
09:23:06 <Yves> rename id to chapter ? (ie: reduce its scope)
09:23:06 <raphael> ... though, it might change with an increasing support of VTT
09:23:51 <raphael> ... so we could restrict id to a time fragment
09:24:35 <silvia> zakim, mute me
09:24:35 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
09:25:02 <foolip> perhaps we should just put this on the bottom of the prio list and decide later?
09:25:38 <silvia> I support this :-)
09:25:43 <foolip> no opinion on test cases
09:25:54 <doublec> reserve id for future use and say it is ignored for now if it is included in the fragment?
09:26:02 <silvia> we can still decide on how such a url should be resolved though
09:26:25 <Zakim> -doublec
09:26:54 <Zakim> +doublec
09:27:50 <foolip> sounds good to me
09:28:13 <raphael> Raphael: following Silvia's suggestion, we restrict id to a time fragment
09:28:32 <raphael> ... id combined with other dimensions has the same behavior of #t combined with other dimensions
09:28:51 <silvia> do you want to also rename it to "chapter" to make that clearer and leave "id" for future use?
09:29:00 <raphael> ... if #id and #t are used together, this is the same behavior as if we have #t=10,t=20 for example
09:29:16 <Yves> chapter makes more sense than id
09:29:23 <davy> +1
09:29:23 <raphael> Raphael: I'm for renaming id to chapter
09:29:24 <doublec> I prefer chapter
09:29:32 <foolip> +-0
09:29:32 <erik> +1
09:29:35 <silvia> +1
09:30:00 <raphael> RESOLUTION: rename the id dimension into a chapter dimension
09:30:25 <raphael> RESOLUTION: the new 'chapter' dimension is just a convenient way of addressing a temporal fragment
09:30:48 <raphael> RESOLUTION: chapter dimension CAN be used in conjunction with other dimensions as the temporal one
09:31:19 <raphael> ACTION: Davy to update the specification to reflect those changes
09:31:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-219 - Update the specification to reflect those changes [on Davy Van Deursen - due 2011-05-18].
09:31:39 <raphael> Davy: Behaviour of Smart UAs vs. UAs that need server help in error cases, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011May/0004.html
09:32:03 <raphael> ... what is the behaviour of a UA getting a 416 from a 
09:32:04 <raphael> Media Fragments-enabled server
09:32:24 <raphael> s/Media Fragments-enabled server/Media Fragments-enabled server?
09:32:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:33:03 <Yves> it's a bad idea to send both ranges request
09:33:23 <raphael> Davy: it is not possible to send a byte ranges request and time range request
09:34:53 <raphael> Raphael: why the behavior should be different if the UA sent a byte range request or a time range request in a first place?
09:35:06 <raphael> Davy: the UA does not necessarily know the duration of the media
09:36:07 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html <- says that  the response SHOULD include a Content-Range entity-header field specifying the current length of the selected resource
09:36:38 <davy> but what about non-existing tracks?
09:37:47 <raphael> Davy: should the server always send back the list of tracks available?
09:38:06 <silvia> the UA should not rely on functionality of an "intelligent" server
09:39:02 <Yves> sending back track list is not really giving hints on the length
09:39:49 <foolip> Zakim, mute me
09:39:49 <Zakim> foolip should now be muted
09:42:02 <Zakim> +tomayac
09:42:15 <raphael> Present+ tomayac
09:42:20 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #mediafrag
09:43:13 <raphael> Davy: if we are just requesting a track range, and that track does not exist, currently we send back a 416
09:43:50 <raphael> Davy: maybe we should just not allow to request track change
09:44:01 <raphael> s/change/range
09:44:06 <silvia> ?
09:45:41 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
09:45:41 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
09:46:11 <raphael> Silvia: track are byte ranges in essence (not time ranges)
09:46:38 <raphael> ... it is up to the UA to resolve the track, in the worst case, the full resource will be requested
09:47:00 <raphael> ... this makes sense in HTML5, since it is generally impossible to guess what will be the byte ranges to request
09:47:21 <raphael> ... we really really need "track" in the a11y TF of HTML5
09:49:13 <raphael> Davy: our server supports the track keyword and the Range header ... but we have no example
09:49:42 <raphael> ... this is difficult to see use cases where you want just one track and difficult to implement
09:50:01 <raphael> Silvia: I see use cases, but no way of implementing them
09:50:40 <raphael> ... I think that for #xywh and #track, the full ressource should be requested and the dimension will be applied locally
09:50:59 <raphael> Davy: I agree with that, but currently, this is NOT what the spec is specfying
09:51:13 <raphael> s/specfying/specifying
09:51:56 <raphael> Silvia: let's assume that a UA has a way to do the mapping between a track and byte ranges ... this would be like for the time dimension
09:53:18 <silvia> zakim, mute me
09:53:18 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
09:53:28 <raphael> Raphael: 2 options on the table
09:54:25 <raphael> ... 1/ #track can only be applied locally, as #xywh, so the full resource is requested ... we NEED to remove text from the spec
09:56:02 <raphael> ... 2/ we leave the spec as it is, and track can be a keyword in the Range header issued by the UA, the server does a mapping between a track range request and byte range request ... we NEED to specify what the behavior is in case of 416
09:58:25 <foolip> q+
09:58:25 <raphael> Erik: codecs are interleaved, so you will end up in many many byte ranges in case of option 2, so for me, option 1 is preferrable
09:58:33 <raphael> zakim, ack foolip
09:58:33 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
09:58:52 <doublec> Zakim, unmute me
09:58:52 <Zakim> doublec was not muted, doublec
09:59:09 <raphael> Philip: I don't have a strong opinion, but I prefer the local option since I will not implement the new Range header other than byte range request
09:59:25 <Yves> local option for tracks is the only one making sense
09:59:26 <Zakim> -silvia
09:59:46 <raphael> Thomas: option 1 is also for me the most sensible one
10:00:02 <raphael> Raphael: +1 for option 1
10:00:11 <doublec> Zakim, mute me
10:00:11 <Zakim> doublec should now be muted
10:00:14 <davy> +1
10:00:19 <erik> +1 for option 1
10:00:32 <foolip> +1
10:00:33 <tomayac> +1 for option 1
10:00:37 <doublec> +1 for option 1
10:00:37 <raphael> RESOLUTION: #track can only be applied locally, as #xywh, so the full resource is requested 
10:01:29 <foolip> we're here
10:01:38 <raphael> ACTION: troncy to change the specification accordingly to reflect that #track is local
10:01:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Change the specification accordingly to reflect that #track is local [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2011-05-18].
10:01:38 <foolip> what's happening?
10:02:11 <raphael> Erik: I suggest we adjourn the meeting
10:02:19 <raphael> ... and I want to thank all for the great discussions
10:02:37 <raphael> ... we have 4 more threads to discuss next week
10:02:56 <raphael> meeting adjourned?
10:03:03 <Yves> bye
10:03:11 <Zakim> -foolip
10:03:12 <Zakim> -tomayac
10:03:13 <Zakim> -Yves
10:03:15 <raphael> Topic: 3. AOB
10:03:19 <Zakim> -raphael
10:03:20 <Zakim> -doublec
10:03:22 <raphael> no
10:03:25 <Zakim> -Erik
10:03:25 <raphael> meeting adjourned
10:03:26 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
10:03:27 <Zakim> Attendees were +6421209aaaa, +33.4.93.00.aabb, raphael, doublec, Yves, +329331aacc, Erik, +46.3.13.48.aadd, foolip, silvia, tomayac
10:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:03:53 <raphael> Really really pleased to have today's discussion and yes, for the trimming of the spec :-)
10:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:05:41 <doublec> thanks silvia, glad to take part finally :)
10:05:58 <raphael> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
10:06:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:06:26 <silvia> doublec: your experience will shape how everyone else will implement it, so it's great you're helping fix the spec, too
10:06:44 <silvia> yay for innovation! :-)
10:07:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:07:30 <davy> davy has left #mediafrag
10:10:01 <doublec> raphael: I've sent an email to dbaron about joining
11:37:05 <raphael> great news Chris!
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