21:20:59 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:20:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-html-a11y-irc
21:21:01 RRSAgent, make logs world
21:21:01 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
21:21:03 Zakim, this will be 2119
21:21:03 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
21:21:04 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:21:04 Date: 11 May 2011
21:21:22 zakim, this is 2119
21:21:22 JF, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
21:21:38 zakim, this will be 2119
21:21:38 ok, JF; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
21:22:02 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:22:03 Chair: Janina_Sajka
21:22:05 agenda: this
21:22:06 agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:22:08 agenda+ Next Steps on Multitrack: Listing Kinds/Types
21:22:09 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:22:11 agenda+ Media Alt Technologies http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Alt_Technologies
21:22:12 agenda+ Other Business?
21:22:14 agenda+ be done
21:22:17 silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:22:49 plh has joined #html-a11y
21:23:19 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has now started
21:23:27 +JF
21:24:37 scribe: JF
21:25:44 zakim, agendum 1
21:25:44 I don't understand 'agendum 1', JF
21:26:07 zakim, take up agendum 1
21:26:07 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from JF]
21:26:20 scribe: JF
21:27:55 janina has joined #html-a11y
21:28:31 trackbot, start meeting
21:28:33 RRSAgent, make logs world
21:28:35 Zakim, this will be 2119
21:28:35 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
21:28:36 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:28:36 Date: 11 May 2011
21:30:32 mark has joined #html-a11y
21:31:10 zakim, who is here ?
21:31:10 I notice WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has restarted
21:31:11 On the phone I see JF, mark, ??P2
21:31:13 zakim, who's here?
21:31:13 On IRC I see mark, janina, plh, silvia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:31:15 On the phone I see JF, mark, ??P2
21:31:17 On IRC I see mark, janina, plh, silvia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:31:24 zakim, agenda?
21:31:24 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
21:31:25 1. Identify Scribe [from JF]
21:31:27 2. Next Steps on Multitrack: Listing Kinds/Types [from JF]
21:31:31 3. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from JF]
21:31:34 4. Media Alt Technologies http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Alt_Technologies [from JF]
21:31:35 5. Other Business? [from JF]
21:31:37 6. be done [from JF]
21:32:03 +Judy
21:32:03 zakim, take up agendum 1
21:32:04 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from JF]
21:32:09 scribe: JF
21:33:59 Sean has joined #html-a11y
21:35:23 +silvia
21:35:56 zakim, mute me
21:35:56 silvia should now be muted
21:36:02 zakim, who is here?
21:36:02 On the phone I see JF, mark, ??P2, Judy, silvia (muted)
21:36:03 On IRC I see Sean, mark, janina, plh, silvia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:36:14 +Eric
21:36:15 zakim, ??P2 is Janina
21:36:16 +Janina; got it
21:37:51 zakim, unmute me
21:37:51 silvia should no longer be muted
21:37:53 zakim, take up next item
21:37:53 agendum 2. "Next Steps on Multitrack: Listing Kinds/Types" taken up [from JF]
21:38:09 -Judy
21:38:26 JS: looking to summarize outstanding issues
21:38:31 + +1.890.9.aaaa
21:38:33 +Judy
21:38:42 SP: Navigation with full descriptions is solved, but not heirarchal navigation
21:39:16 SP: But we've put this on the back-burner until we can start to do some expermentation - there is a bug in the tracker already
21:39:51 zakim, aaaa is Judy
21:39:51 +Judy; got it
21:40:03 zakim, aaa is Judy
21:40:03 sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
21:40:10 zakim, who's here?
21:40:10 On the phone I see JF, mark, Janina, silvia, Eric, Judy.a, Judy
21:40:11 On IRC I see Sean, mark, janina, plh, silvia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, MichaelC, [tm], trackbot
21:40:20 could be me
21:40:32 zakim, aaaa is Sean
21:40:32 sorry, silvia, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
21:40:36 my mic doesnt seem to be working
21:40:46 zakim, judy.a is Sean
21:40:46 +Sean; got it
21:40:59 I'm working on it
21:41:40 SP: the 2 open issues are hierarchical navigation, and the second is alt technologies
21:42:08 which is on the list and agenda today, and to finish of the @kind listing for inband
21:42:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Track_Kinds
21:42:35 zakim, mute me
21:42:35 silvia should now be muted
21:42:40 JS: Picking up from last weeks conversation
21:43:05 not sure how to steer this - are we happy with this list on the wiki? Is it sufficently defined?
21:43:20 Mark: what we are left with is 3 new kids to be proposed
21:43:34 we seem to almost agree to re-open the original bug and request to have them added
21:43:49 the only other thing is to decide what to do with the questions from 3GPP
21:44:08 JS: do we need to worry if our list is 100% accurate before we file another bug?
21:44:30 JF: thought mark suggested that we re-open existing bug
21:44:40 JS: is there disagreement to doing that? who can do it?
21:45:14 mark: whomever is best suited to crafting bug text that the editor is sympathetic too
21:45:21 -Eric
21:45:23 zakim, unmute me
21:45:23 silvia should no longer be muted
21:45:24 JB: perhaps Silvia could do that?
21:45:46 SP: I could, but i don't think I should be the one - suggest that perhaps mark could do it as well
21:45:51 JB: support that
21:46:16 Mark: concerned about process, but can take a stab at it
21:46:35 SP/JB: circulate draft prior to submission for ffeedback
21:46:51 JS: is there more to discuss? are we pretty happy with it?
21:47:03 Mark: regarding Clear Audio, should we link to the wiki page
21:47:03 zakim, mute me
21:47:03 silvia should now be muted
21:47:31 JS: we have discussed the status of that page in the past, but current status is unclear
21:48:40 +Eric
21:48:42 JB: have been wondering about this as well. the user reqs and tech reqs in this sub-group have been referenced widely
21:48:59 however this is a wiki, and anyone can make changes without our knowing it - so it is not stable
21:49:20 the preferable thing to do is to stabilize it, but the a11yTF don't have publication authorization
21:49:29 without going through the full HTML WG
21:49:43 so there are a number of different routes to follow
21:49:52 +q
21:49:59 JS: the other parent group is PF
21:50:20 JB: yes was formally set up as a joint TF
21:50:27 PF can work on this in public
21:50:34 ack JF
21:50:48 PF could possibly take this on
21:52:12 JS: question - would people mind if this was published by PF rather than HTML WG?
21:54:11 zakim, unmute me
21:54:11 silvia should no longer be muted
21:54:57 SP: not too concerned where it is published, PF could handle this, but if people want it to get through the HTML WG process as a tech report or something we could follow that prodess
21:55:07 believe that PF would be appropriate
21:55:07 zakim, mute me
21:55:07 silvia should now be muted
21:55:21 +1 to have this in PF (public) space
21:55:40 JS: any objections then?
21:56:10 JS: will take that on then and move towards a permenant URI
21:56:30 zakim, unmute me
21:56:30 silvia should no longer be muted
21:56:40 ACTION: Janina to take the user reqs and tech reqs and get that published under PF
21:56:40 Created ACTION-126 - Take the user reqs and tech reqs and get that published under PF [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-05-18].
21:57:25 JB: I think there is one section that needs some minor editing, so before it becomes more formal a quick pass would be appropriate
21:57:32 but we could likley lock the page
21:57:40 SP: prefer not to lock the page
21:57:48 as we continue to add clariffication
21:57:59 while those changes are minor, they are useful
21:58:22 suggest that taking it to PF, and in that process to clean up the wording, etc., that would be good
21:59:35 JS: I have tried to search for a good clear explanation of how/what Clear Audio is, but have only found annecdotal content
22:00:04 perhaps we can find more clarification, as it seems incomplete in our document
22:00:13 SH: I can check at BBC for that
22:00:52 JS: thanks mark for helping us move the document forward/
22:00:54 +q
22:01:25 JS: any other questions on the topic and the wiki?
22:01:42 JB: are we looking to do this on both user reqs and tech reqs?
22:02:04 my recollection was that we got more traction with the mapping exercise
22:02:14 believes there is a technical list
22:03:05 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements <- this one?
22:03:06 JB: remembers a list of technical requirements as well as user requirements
22:03:54 SP: don't think we kept that document up to date
22:04:09 JB: OK, that sounds right, retract the suggestion
22:04:16 zakim, mute me
22:04:16 silvia should now be muted
22:04:36 ack jf
22:05:09 JF: what to do with the 3GPP issue?
22:05:22 Mark: questions are on the @trak kinds page
22:05:57 Questions from 3GPP
22:05:59 In [1] they ask:
22:06:00 whether our hope to recommend use of W3C ‘role’ names, in our specification, seems achievable and reasonable, in your opinion;
22:06:02 your thinking on the set of names;
22:06:03 your schedule for defining at least a stable initial set of names;
22:06:05 whether you will define a URN to identify the set you define.
22:07:01 JS: believes that a) yes, we can respond, likely in a few weeks, and that PF would provide the URN for referencing the list
22:07:40 zakim, unmute me
22:07:40 silvia should no longer be muted
22:07:48 JS: so responding here, formally on behalf of the group, likely falls to JF and JS
22:08:01 SP: just to note that the request for clarification came to the HTML WG
22:08:15 wonder if we need to pass it through that group first
22:08:53 SP: came via PLH - but think it should go through HTML WG
22:09:10 JB: if it is a liason query, then it would likley be through staff
22:09:19 Judy and PLH work together on those often
22:10:01 Mark: notes that the request was addressed to the a11yTF group, addressed to David singer
22:10:43 JB: David, PLH and I will be together next week and will walk this through to the end
22:11:08 correction: the 3GPP contact person is David Singer
22:11:10 JS: any other questions with @kind?
22:11:18 zakim, next agendum item
22:11:18 I don't understand 'next agendum item', JF
22:11:25 zakim, take up next agendum
22:11:25 agendum 3. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from JF]
22:12:32 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/99
22:12:54 JS: still working on this, but yes, still active
22:12:57 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/109
22:13:11 next item: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/109
22:13:18 on Sean
22:13:29 SH: I believe this is done, and can be closed
22:13:30 close action 109
22:13:40 zakim, take up next agendum
22:13:40 agendum 4. "Media Alt Technologies http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Alt_Technologies" taken up [from JF]
22:14:39 SP: have looked at alt technologies when video and audio are not playing
22:14:45 similar to no image display
22:15:03 so what do we do with the empty space in particular for people who cannot see the empty space
22:15:19 may also be a useful situation for people who may still want to know what audio and video is
22:15:30 ie; low bandwidth, deaf/blind, etc.
22:15:41 so that is the background that I have approached it from
22:16:06 another is, what if there are 20 videos on the page, when tabbing through we need an indication as to what these videos represent
22:16:17 which to a sighted user comes from the placeholder frame
22:16:26 -Sean
22:16:34 but for non-sighted needs a text alternative
22:16:40 +q
22:16:50 being careful not to use the term poster
22:17:24 SP: so that is the background, and the wiki page is linked here
22:17:39 + +44.844.800.aabb
22:17:40 saw that this could be a problem to solve
22:17:50 have discussed this with other developers and blind users
22:18:00 also needed to understand the alt technologies available
22:18:12 Sean again
22:18:21 as this is related to where we have gone in the past
22:18:23 zakim, aabb is Sean
22:18:23 +Sean; got it
22:18:45 SP: so I have identified 3 use cases
22:18:53 that I think needs to be catered for
22:19:04 but anything that is time-aligned is not pertinent here
22:19:15 as this has already been addressed via the track element
22:19:50 JS: so we have 2 tiypes of transcript, one that is time-stmped and one that is not
22:19:53 SP: yes
22:20:12 perhaps start with the @transcription proposal
22:20:28 a new attribute proposed has the use of linking to an off-page transcription file
22:20:46 use case is that we have a very long and detailed transcription, but too long to be cited on the page
22:21:28 this would be most useful for deaf/blind and/or low-bandwidth users
22:21:50 while talking with people at google, they have had this request for a long time
22:22:05 q+
22:22:28 ie: non-timed-aligned text, currently YouTube strips time-alignment from text when they receive the request
22:23:05 SP: so we can either provide an "in the clear" link on the page, either visible or positioned off-page
22:23:20 or having the attribute
22:23:48 don't like the position off page solution, so would prefer to see it as a link in the video element
22:24:09 ack jf
22:25:46 ack: jan
22:25:55 ack jan
22:26:17 JS: agrees that a contextual menu would likely be the better solution
22:26:31 SP: yes, I think that this would be the most useful as well
22:26:52 JS: one question - if we call this transcription, what do we call the text file with the time-stamp
22:27:21 q+
22:27:31 JS: we need to be very clear on how we name this
22:28:08 Mark: does it make any sense if the UA could strip the time-stamp data, could we repurpose this?
22:28:33 JB: the text, where-ever you pause, my be widely un-aligned with the media
22:28:56 we are dealing with the question of 'appropriateness' without to much analysis
22:29:55 q?
22:30:04 ack ma
22:30:08 Mark: the question is, can the entire timestamp text also fufill the need of the transcript - if the UA can strip the timestamping
22:30:17 q+
22:30:29