14:58:34 RRSAgent has joined #webevents 14:58:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc 14:58:41 RRSAgent, make log public 14:58:53 ScribeNick: ArtB 14:58:53 Scribe: Art 14:58:53 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0092.html 14:58:53 Date: 10 May 2011 14:58:53 Chair: Art 14:58:53 Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference 14:59:37 + +1.206.792.aabb 14:59:42 Zakim, aabb is me 14:59:42 +mbrubeck; got it 15:00:14 Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers, Josh_Soref 15:00:52 +??P9 15:01:03 Zakim, ??P9 is Olli_Pettay 15:01:03 +Olli_Pettay; got it 15:01:08 Present+ Olli_Pettay 15:01:12 Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay 15:01:12 ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay 15:01:54 Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck 15:01:54 sorry, mbrubeck, I do not see a party named 'Matt_Brubeck' 15:02:19 zakim, aabb is Matt_Brubeck 15:02:19 sorry, ArtB, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 15:02:46 + +1.781.266.aacc 15:03:03 - +1.781.266.aacc 15:03:14 Zakim, mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck 15:03:14 +Matt_Brubeck; got it 15:03:19 Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck 15:03:19 ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck 15:03:29 + +1.781.266.aadd 15:03:45 Present+ Cathy_Chan 15:04:05 Zakim, aadd is Cathy_Chan 15:04:05 +Cathy_Chan; got it 15:04:13 Oops, I had muted my speaker, not microphone 15:04:34 Topic: Tweak Agenda 15:04:40 AB: I posted the draft agenda on May 6 ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0092.html ). Any change requests? 15:04:54 [ None ] 15:05:00 Topic: Short Announcements 15:05:06 AB: FPWD published May 5; congratulations to the Editors and WG ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20110505/ ). Any other short annoucements? 15:05:35 +Cathy_Chan.a 15:06:13 AB: FYI, Josh is no longer employed by Nokia 15:06:43 Topic: Object Identity 15:06:49 AB: on April 26, Matt Brubeck sent an e-mail re Object Identity ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0068.html ). The only person that responded was Olli. 15:07:03 AB: what do others think; what do we do about Object Identity; is there some spec'ing that needs to be done? 15:07:40 MB: I don't have a strong opinion 15:07:46 ... but web devs have talked about it 15:07:59 ... I think we should at least get an opinion 15:08:09 ... We may not have to specify anything here 15:08:20 ... but OTOH, if there is consensus to spec something then we should 15:09:05 OP: I wonder why WebKit might be changing their behavior 15:09:10 ... would like to understand that 15:09:16 -Cathy_Chan 15:09:24 ... QuirksMode indicated WebKit will change 15:09:35 MB: WK is a bit diff than my examples 15:10:07 s/WK/WebKit/ 15:10:21 OP: we need to discuss this with someone who is implementing this in WebKit 15:10:33 ... need to know if they are reusing their Touch objects 15:10:53 MB: agree we need more feedback from implementors 15:11:04 ... until then, I think the spec should remain silent 15:11:11 OP: perhaps someone from Nokia can find out 15:11:12 +Doug_Schepers 15:11:38 ACTION: barstow follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity implementation in WebKit 15:11:39 Created ACTION-46 - Follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity implementation in WebKit [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-05-17]. 15:12:15 ISSUE: Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity 15:12:15 Created ISSUE-16 - Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/16/edit . 15:12:42 Topic: preventDefault Research; 15:12:50 AB: on April 26 Matt sent an e-mail regarding some research he did on preventDefault ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0069.html ). Andrew Grieve and Matt had some additional responses. 15:13:09 AB: is there some additional spec'ing that needs to be done? 15:13:41 MB: Andrew suggested a simple fix 15:13:50 ... I don' think there were any objections to that 15:14:04 ... Another open issue if spec should say something about scrolling 15:14:30 ... It would be useful for implementors 15:14:39 ... I'll make a proposal about preventing scrolling 15:14:51 ... Probably in terms of May or Should rather than Must requirements 15:15:30 ACTION: brubeck submit a proposal for re scrolling and the preventDefault research thread 15:15:30 Created ACTION-47 - Submit a proposal for re scrolling and the preventDefault research thread [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17]. 15:16:32 Topic: Issue-3 - Click event target after DOM mutation during touchstart 15:16:40 AB: Issue-3 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/3 ) was opened weeks ago. There was some recent follow-up by Sangwhan and Andrew ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0081.html ). Doug has related Action-23 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23 ). 15:17:19 AB: who can take the lead here and make a proposal? 15:17:42 Action-23? 15:17:42 ACTION-23 -- Doug Schepers to follow-up on Issue-3 -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN 15:17:42 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23 15:18:43 DS: I don't see a way around this issue 15:19:11 ... I have some behavior defined for Activiate in the DOM 3 Events spec 15:19:16 ... We could borrow some of that 15:19:25 ... But if someone wants to help, that's fine 15:19:50 MB: our initial Gecko implementation behaves the same way as Android an iPhone 15:20:06 AB: that's quite a bit of synergy 15:20:08 s/ an / and / 15:20:41 AB: are there any volunteers to help here? 15:20:54 ... Doug, we'll wait for your input here 15:21:25 DS: I can propose something by the end of today 15:21:56 ... We need to decide if this is a Should or a Must 15:22:11 MB: we already addressed touchstart and default actions and click 15:22:21 ... this is about what to do if DOM changes 15:22:38 DS: I need to take a look at this 15:23:25 AB: ok, so the status of Issue-3 is we will wait for Doug to complete action-23 15:23:35 ... If anyone wants to help, please do so 15:24:02 MB: the reason Gecko behaves as it does is because we wait for touch to end before simulate up/down events 15:24:17 ... all of those events occur in the DOM after the touch sequence 15:24:53 Topic: Issue-6 - Touch targets in frames 15:25:02 AB: Issue-6 was raised by Andrew last February ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/6 ). Doug has related Action-24 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/24 ). The last discussion was February 22 ( http://www.w3.org/2011/02/22-webevents-minutes.html#item08 ). 15:25:40 DS: I need to send an e-mail about this 15:26:01 AB: is this a relatively straight fwd proposal? 15:26:11 DS: would like to know what WebKit and Gecko do 15:26:18 ... need to consider security here 15:27:01 MB: need to be careful here 15:27:06 ... don't want any data leaking 15:27:56 DS: also could observe a pattern of how the user is moving on the larger outside page 15:28:01 ... and where the iframe is 15:28:16 MB: if you can trick the user in a specific way, can get some data on the user 15:29:11 AB: so Doug, you are OK with the way iOS and Android handle this? 15:29:16 DS: basically, yes 15:29:37 AB: so how do we close this? 15:29:47 DS: just need an Editor to add the text 15:29:50 MB: I can do that 15:29:56 AB: that would be great Matt 15:30:27 ACTION: brubeck propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to the child iframe) 15:30:28 Created ACTION-48 - Propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to the child iframe) [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17]. 15:31:01 Topic: Issue-8 - initTouchEvent function 15:31:14 AB: Issue-8 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/8 ) was created in March. Olli has related Action-34 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/34 ) and Doug has related Action-36 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/36 ). The last time we discussed this was during the April 12 call ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/att-0039/WebEvents-min-12-Apr-2011.html#issue-8 ). 15:31:39 AB: this method is already defined in the spec. What else needs to be specified? 15:32:01 MB: I committed a proposal 15:32:08 ... there is one open sub-issue 15:32:12 ... it is noted in the spec 15:32:18 ... re the arguments of this method 15:32:48 ... it take page x and 'y' and client x and 'y' 15:33:00 ... Think we can close Issue-8 15:33:22 s/take/takes/ 15:33:26 ... and open a new issue 15:33:33 AB: any objections to that? 15:33:50 ACTION: barstow move issue-8 to the closed state 15:33:50 Created ACTION-49 - Move issue-8 to the closed state [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-05-17]. 15:34:29 ISSUE: page x and 'y' paramters to create touch 15:34:29 Created ISSUE-17 - Page x and 'y' paramters to create touch ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/17/edit . 15:35:01 s/paramters/parameters/ 15:35:08 MB: I started a thread on this issue 15:35:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0078.html 15:36:34 MB: we should take issue-17 to the list 15:37:15 OP: Gecko and Webkit aren't aligned here 15:38:48 Currently Gecko doesn't compute clientX/Y values automatically from pageX/Y, like webkit does 15:38:51 [ Scribe missed some details exchanged between Olli and Matt ...] 15:38:59 The spec (which is based on what Olli implemented in Gecko) is written to allow backward compatibility with WebKit/Safari, while also allowing consistency with mouse events. 15:39:23 If we keep the API in the spec, we should specify that if pageX/Y are null, then they will be computed based on clientX/Y, and vice-versa. 15:39:46 AB: thanks Olli and Matt for embellishing the minutes! 15:39:51 Or we could simplify the spec and make it work like mouse events (breaking compatibility with content that uses the current WebKit API). 15:40:21 MB: I will make a proposal on the list 15:40:44 ACTION: brubeck make a proposal to address Issue-17 15:40:44 Created ACTION-50 - Make a proposal to address Issue-17 [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17]. 15:41:27 Topic: High-level Intensional Event Spec 15:42:07 AB: I am interested in expectations, plans and such 15:42:09 s/Intensional/Intentional/ 15:42:13 DS: I have some information 15:44:29 ... Apple made a proposal to Web Apps WG 15:44:45 ... for the Procols and Formats WG 15:44:57 ... to add some a11y features to D3E 15:45:11 s/Procols/Protocols/ 15:45:24 ... Decided a joint deliverable between Web Events and WAI WG would be a good way to move fwd 15:46:16 AB: is James' earlier proposal public? 15:46:33 James Craig is working on the "Independence for User Interface" (IndieUI) proposal 15:46:51 AB: James' proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html 15:47:50 AB: is P&F WG working on this IndieUI spec? 15:48:10 DS: no, I don't think so yet; but expect it or something like it will be 15:48:28 ... not sure about its priority, especially with ARIA 15:49:23 AB: so is the IndieUI going to be the Intentional Events spec we are chartered to do? 15:49:33 DS: yes, that is my expectation 15:49:48 ... in cooperation with the P&F WG 15:50:36 ... I will notify Web Events WG when there is something to review 15:51:19 AB: getting early access to a draft, would be very useful 15:51:48 DS: I will convey that to him 15:51:50 Recommended these resources: [1] http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html [2] http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/spec-conventions.html [3] http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html 15:51:51 AB: ok; thanks 15:53:10 DS: If James follows these conventions, the spec should be similar in format to what we are already doing 15:53:33 ... Need a way for author to map from low-level to high-level intentional events 15:53:49 ... I can contact the related paper from the IETF 15:54:06 AB: I think you mean GISpL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-echtler-gispl-specification-00 15:54:34 DS: may need a separate event listener 15:54:51 ... needs some more thinking 15:55:07 ... event types and a range of values 15:55:27 ... register for some event with a set of params 15:55:38 -Matt_Brubeck 15:55:49 ... and the listener would get some set of values for the registered params 15:56:17 DS: I think I should send an e-mail about this 15:56:42 ... there could be a more elegant solution 15:57:23 s/contact/get/ 15:57:35 Topic: AoB 15:57:43 AB: no call next on May 17 15:57:49 ... next call will be May 24 15:57:58 AB: any other topics for today? 15:58:10 AB: meeting adjourned 15:58:16 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:58:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:58:17 -Olli_Pettay 15:58:19 -Doug_Schepers 15:58:21 -Art_Barstow 15:58:25 -Cathy_Chan.a 15:58:25 RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended 15:58:27 Attendees were +1.781.993.aaaa, Art_Barstow, +1.206.792.aabb, Olli_Pettay, +1.781.266.aacc, Matt_Brubeck, +1.781.266.aadd, Cathy_Chan, Doug_Schepers 15:58:38 RRSAgent, make log Public 15:58:44 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:58:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:11:42 zakim, bye 16:11:42 Zakim has left #webevents 16:12:29 rrsagent, bye 16:12:29 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-actions.rdf : 16:12:29 ACTION: barstow follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity implementation in WebKit [1] 16:12:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-11-38 16:12:29 ACTION: brubeck submit a proposal for re scrolling and the preventDefault research thread [2] 16:12:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-15-30 16:12:29 ACTION: brubeck propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to the child iframe) [3] 16:12:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-30-27 16:12:29 ACTION: barstow move issue-8 to the closed state [4] 16:12:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-33-50 16:12:29 ACTION: brubeck make a proposal to address Issue-17 [5] 16:12:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-40-44