12:57:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
12:57:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-irc
12:57:53 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
12:58:00 <dbooth> zakim, this will be awwsw
12:58:00 <Zakim> ok, dbooth; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
12:58:16 <dbooth> Meeting: AWWSW
12:58:23 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
12:58:30 <Zakim> +DBooth
12:58:43 <dbooth> Chair: Jonathan Rees (jar)
12:59:54 <jar> zakim's clock is fast.
13:00:10 <jar> by 1-2 minutes
13:01:13 <jar> pinging alanr
13:02:37 <Zakim> +jar_
13:02:52 <jar> alanr: "Few min. Parking"
13:06:44 <jar> zakim, code?
13:06:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 29979 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), jar
13:07:57 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
13:10:06 <dbooth> Topic: What has been happening in AWWSW task force?
13:10:26 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
13:11:07 <Zakim> + +1.716.829.aaaa
13:12:04 <alanr> alanr has joined #awwsw
13:12:36 <alanr> hi
13:12:41 <alanr> zakim who is here?
13:13:01 <jar> zakim, aaaa is alanr
13:13:01 <Zakim> +alanr; got it
13:13:18 <jar> zakim, who is here?
13:13:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, jar_, alanr
13:13:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, RRSAgent, dbooth, Zakim, jar, trackbot
13:13:46 <jar> Look for subject: AWWSW Telecon Tuesday 2011-05-10
13:14:38 <dbooth> jar: In the last few months I've been focusing on how to prevent the train wreck between CC and linked data.
13:15:20 <jar> does the URI refer to the IR at that URI, or to something else?
13:15:36 <alanr> jimendo
13:15:37 <jar> e.g. another IR, or a toucan
13:15:50 <dbooth> alanr: i.e., whether the URI refers to the page at the URI or something else?  this comes up with CC licenses.
13:15:59 <alanr> eg. music IR at http://www.jamendo.com/en/ 
13:16:13 <dbooth> jar: This also is related to Ian Davis's desire to ditch the httpRange-14 rule.
13:16:25 <jar> also Ian Davis and Harry H's desire to ditch httpRange-14
13:16:41 <jar> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
13:16:41 <jar>      xhv:license <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/>.
13:16:44 <alanr> ping
13:17:14 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:17:30 <alanr> ping
13:17:38 <jar> does the URI refer to the IR at that URI, or to something else?
13:18:33 <dbooth> alanr: And in the specific case of a music file, the IR at that publish URI is not a music file.
13:18:38 <alanr> "a page about an album"
13:18:46 <dbooth> jar: There are two IRs: the landing page and the music.
13:19:15 <alanr> the IR at <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>  is a "landing page", and it is a page about an album.
13:19:22 <dbooth> jar: Clearly they do not mean to license the landing page.
13:19:33 <alanr> that URI is a subject of a license assertion
13:19:44 <alanr> but clearly the license assertion is about the music
13:20:32 <dbooth> jar: CC has a page that tells people how to do this correctly, but jamendo didn't do it right.
13:20:41 <alanr> http://www.jamendo.com/en/download/album/78807
13:20:52 <alanr> that's the download URI on the landing page
13:20:58 <jar> http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Web_Statement
13:21:13 <alanr> http://download25.jamendo.com/download/album/78807/mp32/befe7911b7/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20(1685%20-%201750)%20-%20CelloSuite%20(Prima%20parte)%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.zip
13:21:18 <alanr> that's the IR?
13:21:59 <jar> I get an error
13:22:22 <alanr> http://imgjam.com/torrents/album/807/78807/78807-mp32.torrent/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20%281685%20-%201750%29%20-%20CelloSuite%20%28Prima%20parte%29%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.torrent
13:22:49 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:23:32 <alanr> alan asks David if he agrees this is a problem
13:24:04 <alanr> David says: example of ambiguity. one kind of ambiguity of reference. We can't get rid of ambiguity. Arch works fine.
13:24:23 <alanr> practical problem: specific applications are counting on one way of expressing things
13:24:34 <alanr> this one is not following the rules that are expected
13:24:45 <alanr> Jar: what rule is it not following
13:25:00 <alanr> rrsagent, pointer?
13:25:00 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-irc#T13-25-00
13:26:21 <alanr> dbooth: one class of applications will interpret the license as applying to the landing page
13:27:52 <alanr> (class of applications that work the way jonathan documented)
13:28:04 <alanr> but also could be others who interpret it differently?
13:28:23 <alanr> dbooth: not clear there is this second class
13:29:01 <alanr> for people in that case the URI indirectly identifies the music. How do they know that's what it identifies? By human means. But don't see an automated way that they could know that.
13:29:28 <alanr> http://ccmixter.org/
13:29:58 <alanr> dbooth: license would stand up in court - intent was clear but is problem for automation
13:30:22 <alanr> goal: intent should be clear by automation
13:30:39 <dbooth> s/goal:/goal is that/
13:30:57 <alanr> are there ways to make this clear?
13:31:19 <alanr> Harry suggests using IRW ontology - add more metadata that says the URI in question means something particular
13:31:47 <dbooth> dbooth: The problem is how to say that some other statements should be ignored.
13:32:06 <jar> (1) use a different URI - that's what CC says (e.g. urn:sha1: )
13:32:25 <dbooth> ... i.e., statements made implicitly by an HTTP 200 OK response code.
13:32:39 <jar> http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Web_Statement
13:33:24 <jar> (2) use landing page URI, but add metadata to make it clear that this URI refers to the music, not to the landing page.
13:33:40 <jar> (2) is what Harry proposed (IRW)
13:34:48 <jar> (2) scoped to RDF
13:36:22 <dbooth> dbooth: the URI could refer to the combination of the landing page and the music, and then the license would apply to that combination.
13:37:06 <dbooth> ... so if owl:sameAs were used between the music URI and the landing page URI, this may be a solution.
13:37:15 <jar> no
13:37:29 <jar> because how would anyone know that the music URI refers to the music?
13:37:50 <jar> same problem - figuring out what the music URI refers to, and what the landing page URI refers to
13:37:55 <alanr> alanr: asks the question what the difference between saying "this URI refers to the music" versus. URI sameAs musicURI
13:38:09 <alanr> trying to clarify (2)
13:38:20 <dbooth> ... an assertion could say that the thing is :Music .
13:38:25 <alanr> one answer is (2) is one way but sameAs is two-way
13:39:22 <alanr> rephrasing: If you make a statement that "URI refers to the music" this is one-way. 
13:39:40 <alanr> one-way = unidirectional (synonym in alan jargon)
13:40:00 <alanr> A sameAs B <=> B sameAs A
13:40:16 <alanr> sameAs is statement about resource, not about URI
13:41:10 <alanr> <urn:sha1:MSMBC5VEUDLTC26UT5W7GZBAKZHCY2MD> :license <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/> .
13:41:31 <alanr> CC example of musicURI is urn:sha1...
13:41:33 <jar> <urn:sha1:x> foaf:sha1 x.
13:42:35 <alanr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
13:43:23 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> owl:sameAs 
13:43:23 <dbooth> http://download25.jamendo.com/download/album/78807/mp32/befe7911b7/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20(1685%20-%201750)%20-%20CelloSuite%20(Prima%20parte)%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.zip> .
13:44:17 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> cc:license <foo> .
13:44:49 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> a :music
13:45:30 <dbooth> dbooth: And as long as classes are not disjoint, then it works.
13:45:34 <alanr> this help because now you can start looking for something is music
13:46:05 <alanr> jar: doesn't say which music
13:46:18 <alanr> but if there is additional metadata (on either URI)
13:46:51 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :composer "Johann sebastian Bach" .
13:46:51 <jar> sure, with enough metadata you can identify what you want to refer to.  e.g. sha1
13:46:56 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> creator bach
13:48:44 <dbooth> dbooth: So it seems to me that the owl:sameAs solution works, provided that the consuming apps can live with the ambiguity it creates between the landing page and the music.
13:49:28 <dbooth> alanr: People are looking for a follow-your-nose process that will yield the right answer.
13:50:24 <jar> we're talking about apps like ccmixter that need to know what is licenced and how, in order to be correct
13:50:36 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> cc:license <foo> .
13:50:59 <jar> it's xhtml:license
13:51:40 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :hasUri "http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807" .
13:51:53 <jar> :onWebAt
13:51:59 <dbooth> s/hasUri/onWebAt/
13:52:14 <dbooth> per http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/
13:53:01 <jar> then we're hosed.  the IR on the web at that URI is the landing page
13:53:09 <alanr> agreed
13:54:29 <jar> in this case the sameas would create an inconsistency
13:54:32 <alanr> [a landingpage] sameas [a music]
13:55:45 <jar> representation is authorized for uri
13:56:59 <alanr> an authorized representation from a landingpage(uri)...
13:57:11 <alanr> would be one that you get by getting that URI
13:57:53 <alanr> representations for the music are not authorized for the landing page and vice versa
13:58:01 <dbooth> { ?landingPage :onWebAt ?landingPageUri. } => { ?rep  ... }
14:01:26 <jar> when someone asks for the zip file, they have to get the zip file
14:02:39 <dbooth> <http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/> or "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/"
14:02:40 <dbooth> ?
14:02:53 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
14:03:54 <alanr> and intended (authorized) representation would be e.g. html encoded human readable information
14:03:59 <alanr> s/and/an/
14:04:21 <jar> assuming <x> :onWebAt "x"
14:04:28 <alanr> (assuming <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> onWebAt "http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807"
14:04:35 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :hasAuthorizedRepresentation "Content-Type: HTML, ... " .
14:05:31 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> 
14:05:57 <alanr> intended representations are encoded digitized music
14:05:58 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :onWebAt "http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807" .
14:06:37 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> onWebAt "http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip"
14:07:10 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> dc:author "Johan Sebastian Bach" .
14:07:28 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> sameAs <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip>
14:07:43 <alanr> belay that. let me try again
14:08:00 <alanr> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> sameAs <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
14:08:14 <jar> the landing page does NOT have any ZIP authorized representations, by definition of :onWebAt
14:08:51 <dbooth> <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> :hasAuthorizedRespresentation "Content-Type: Music..."
14:08:52 <alanr> not by onWebAt, by what we agreed was an authorized/intended epresentation
14:10:21 <jar> sameas leads to R authorized and R *not* authorized
14:10:52 <alanr> there is no correct interpretation in which we don't have a problem. David do you agree?
14:12:03 <jar> back in 2 minutes
14:12:20 <dbooth> dbooth: Well, it depends on what you mean by "correct".
14:12:32 <alanr> there no not inconsistent interpretation in which we don't have a problem. David do you agree?
14:12:42 <dbooth> If there are no disjointness assertions, then there *are* satisfying interpretations.
14:12:42 <alanr> (i.e. correct = (at least) not inconsistent)
14:14:30 <dbooth> dbooth: This may work just fine for applications that do not need to distinguish between the landing page and the music.  But it won't work for apps that need to distinguish between them (and which effectively use disjointness assertions).
14:15:49 <jar> there are always going to be satisfying interpretations that aren't correct
14:15:52 <dbooth> jar: There are going to be satisfying interpretations that are not "correct", i.e., do not agree with the real world.
14:16:02 <jar> that just means that we've failed to articulate some axioms
14:21:12 <alanr> an application that is classifying assets: 
14:21:24 <alanr> making a classification into one of 3 categories
14:21:31 <alanr> 1) intellectual property
14:21:34 <alanr> 2) real estate
14:21:38 <alanr> 3) vehicles
14:22:19 <alanr> both <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> and <http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> classify under (1 intellectual property)
14:22:35 <alanr> so: it's ok to make the sameAs statement
14:22:47 <alanr> (according to dave)
14:23:28 <jar> db: assuming there is metadata that says that one of the URIs is intellectual property
14:23:59 <jar> s/is int/names int/
14:24:31 <alanr> dbooth says: it is not possible to serve all the application
14:24:51 <dbooth> dbooth: i.e., it is impossible to avoid all ambiguity of reference.
14:26:31 <alanr> without the sameAs the license attribution application doesn't work
14:26:44 <alanr> with the sameAs it also doesn't work, because of inconsistency
14:27:09 <alanr> I'm a publisher and I'm trying to make something that works for both the music spider and the classifier
14:27:38 <alanr> music spider = license attributor
14:28:16 <alanr> dbooth: claim sameAs works for license attributor 
14:28:31 <dbooth> dbooth: I think the music spider app is different from the license attributor.  
14:29:11 <alanr> proposal: general advise that landing pages should have sameAs to resource would be a bad idea  
14:29:59 <dbooth> dbooth: It would be bad only because there are important existing apps (e.g., music spider downloader) that would fail.
14:31:11 <alanr> what worries me with david's "applications rule"
14:31:52 <alanr> philosophy is that it seems it encourages building to the unspecified. Namely it places more importance on the computed possible interpretations than on the intended ones (even given evidence of intention)
14:32:10 <dbooth> dbooth: my "applications rule" is that what matters is not whether the assertions are correct statements about the real world, but whether apps work using them.
14:37:22 <dbooth> dbooth: What you're describing is what I call the resource identity guessing game.
14:42:58 <Zakim> -alanr
14:42:59 <Zakim> -DBooth
14:43:43 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
14:45:13 <dbooth> dbooth: Yes, it *does* place more importance on the computed possible interpretations than on the "intended" interpretations.  The reason for this is that the "intended" interpretations are only known by the publisher.  They are not knowable by the users or consumers of a URI.
14:45:20 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:45:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
14:46:06 <dbooth> Present: David Booth, Jonathan Rees, Alan Ruttenberg
14:46:10 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:46:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
14:46:59 <dbooth> s/ it / my "applications rule" /
14:47:04 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
14:48:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, jar_, in TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
14:48:01 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:48:05 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, jar_, Alan_Ruttenberg, +1.716.829.aaaa, alanr
15:19:38 <alanr> alanr has joined #awwsw
15:26:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
15:29:15 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #awwsw
16:47:21 <webr3> webr3 has joined #awwsw
18:21:38 <jar_> jar_ has joined #awwsw