13:07:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #testing
13:07:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-testing-irc
13:07:04 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:07:04 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:07:10 <shadi> scribe: shadi
13:07:15 <shadi> chair: philippe
13:07:22 <shadi> zakim, take up next
13:07:22 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Testing IG" taken up [from plh-home]
13:07:55 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/testing-ig-charter.html
13:08:16 <shadi> MS: did several changes since we last talked
13:10:19 <shadi> ...talked with Philippe about Task Forces
13:10:32 <shadi> ...worked well in several settings
13:11:25 <shadi> q+
13:11:51 <francois> zakim, mute me
13:11:51 <Zakim> francois should now be muted
13:11:54 <shadi> ack me
13:11:54 <plh-home> ack shadi
13:12:15 <MikeSmith> q+ to say that there are many parts of the shared testing infrastructure that are common to testing of different classes of apps
13:14:14 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:14:14 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:14:15 <MikeSmith> example: http://www.w3.org/2004/04/wcag-charter
13:14:45 <shadi> shadi: where would you envision Task Forces? the core scope seems pretty broad anyway
13:15:00 <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith 
13:15:00 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that there are many parts of the shared testing infrastructure that are common to testing of different classes of apps
13:15:15 <shadi> mikeS: did not want to limit the authority of creating TFs
13:15:50 <shadi> ...to create reusable infrastructure
13:16:15 <shadi> ...for instance like a commenting funcationality that is not limited to a particular class of applications
13:16:52 <shadi> ...distguishing that from the test runner for the browser, which is specific to particular types of applications
13:16:58 <shadi> ack me
13:18:51 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:18:51 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:19:34 <shadi> shadi: think that makes sense but may need to have better understanding of the individual components, interfaces, and terminology for these
13:20:01 <francois> +1 to "test runner"
13:20:28 <shadi> philippe: next would be to send the IG Charter to the AC, so that I can talk with the AC folks next week
13:20:42 <shadi> ...try to get review period as soon as possible
13:21:04 <shadi> ack me
13:21:28 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/CG/
13:22:31 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:22:31 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:22:38 <shadi> zakim, take up next
13:22:38 <Zakim> agendum 4. "CSS Testing" taken up [from plh-home]
13:23:13 <shadi> philippe: previously looked at existing work
13:23:30 <shadi> ...have a "test runner" for HTML5
13:23:44 <shadi> ...also one from Mozilla that seems to be more complete
13:24:24 <shadi> ...for instance, it can display two documents for comparison, which the HTML5 one cannot do
13:24:35 <shadi> ...also know there are other "runners" elsewhere
13:25:00 <shadi> ...Dom developed one for mobileWeb and there is another one for CSS somewhere
13:26:07 <shadi> ...so question is do we start by building on top of an existing runner, and if so which
13:26:17 <shadi> ...have a call on that today at noon ET
13:26:19 <francois> q+
13:27:36 <shadi> ...trade-off between metadata and how they will be added
13:27:56 <shadi> ...would be good to learn how the CSS folks managed 9k+ tests
13:28:56 <wilhelm> q+
13:29:28 <shadi> ...to have ready documentation next time someone wants to contribute tests
13:29:34 <francois> ack me
13:29:37 <plh-home> ack francois
13:30:02 <shadi> francois: already reviewed some of the CSS testing work
13:30:15 <shadi> ...some documents we should be familiar with before the call
13:30:28 <shadi> philippe: purely informational call
13:30:32 <plh-home> http://wiki.csswg.org/test
13:30:57 <francois> zakim, mute me
13:30:57 <Zakim> francois should now be muted
13:31:00 <plh-home> ack w
13:31:29 <shadi> wilhelm: should also look into how the different browser vendors use the tests
13:31:41 <shadi> ...the importing is really painful
13:31:51 <shadi> ...partially manual and very messy
13:32:07 <shadi> ...would like to know how the other browser vendors handle this
13:32:17 <shadi> ...and the IG could facilitate this process
13:32:39 <shadi> ...also good to look at automation
13:33:01 <shadi> philippe: automation is an important aspect
13:34:07 <shadi> ...not easy to automate browsers across platforms
13:34:20 <shadi> ...but could provide the necessary data
13:34:50 <shadi> ...maybe could automate such tests in the future but not in the near future
13:35:05 <shadi> ...also need to educate people on how to write automatable testsd
13:35:13 <shadi> s/testd/tests
13:35:39 <shadi> ...as to facilitating the use of test suites for browser vendors
13:35:50 <shadi> ...also a goal but not yet clear how
13:35:53 <shadi> q+
13:36:21 <shadi> ...if we do our job well, we can harmonize the techniques
13:36:27 <shadi> ack me
13:37:39 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:37:39 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:38:01 <shadi> shadi: all sounds like metadata is necessary to provide the necessary interface
13:38:40 <shadi> philippe: metadata is bigger than conventions
13:39:16 <shadi> ...different groups are more specific about their assertions
13:39:28 <shadi> ...even create their specs accordingly
13:39:39 <shadi> ...others are much less involved
13:40:21 <shadi> ...we have w3c-test.org but difficult to get an overview
13:40:53 <shadi> zakim, take up next
13:40:53 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Framework" taken up [from plh-home]
13:41:09 <shadi> philippe: now called "test runner"
13:41:21 <shadi> ...need first version by summer
13:41:50 <shadi> ...question is which "test runner" is to be first
13:42:47 <shadi> ack me
13:45:13 <shadi> shadi: thought this group needs to develop more than the "test runner" alone but also the infrastructure around it
13:45:42 <shadi> ...like test repository, test metadata, and other parts of what we talked about
13:45:58 <shadi> philippe: yes, the group needs to develop the other pieces
13:46:02 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:46:02 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:46:22 <shadi> ...but need to have the runner ready by mid-summer
13:46:42 <shadi> ...need to develop the pieces along the way
13:46:45 <shadi> ack me
13:49:46 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:49:46 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:50:34 <shadi> shadi: need a description of the different components and interfaces
13:50:56 <shadi> philippe: yes, groups should be able to create their own test runners
13:51:22 <shadi> ...would like to avoid forking as much as possible
13:51:31 <francois> ack me
13:51:35 <shadi> ...but may be unavoidable in specific situations
13:51:56 <shadi> francois: we sometimes have to bundle test cases different in some cases
13:52:18 <shadi> ...does not mean we need cannot have a common repository
13:52:21 <francois> zakim, mute me
13:52:21 <Zakim> francois should now be muted
13:52:32 <shadi> ...just a matter of repackaging
13:53:03 <shadi> agenda?
13:53:37 <shadi> philippe: need to develop those diagrams
13:54:05 <shadi> rrsagent, end meeting
13:54:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', shadi.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:54:06 <Zakim> -MikeSmith
13:54:07 <Zakim> -Plh
13:54:09 <Zakim> -francois
13:54:11 <Zakim> -wilhelm
13:54:13 <Zakim> -Shadi
13:54:13 <Zakim> Team_(testing)12:58Z has ended
13:54:15 <Zakim> Attendees were Plh, Shadi, francois, MikeSmith, +47.23.69.aaaa, wilhelm
13:54:24 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
13:54:28 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
13:54:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-testing-minutes.html shadi
13:54:30 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
13:54:34 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
13:54:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items