15:03:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:03:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/04-forms-irc
15:03:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:03:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
15:03:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:03:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_XForms()11:00AM already started
15:03:05 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
15:03:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:03:06 <trackbot> Date: 04 May 2011
15:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see +44.782.483.aaaa, [IPcaller], Leigh_Klotz
15:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, klotz, pfennell, alain, trackbot
15:03:29 <klotz> zakim, +44.782 is pfennell
15:03:29 <Zakim> +pfennell; got it
15:03:38 <klotz> zakim, [IPcaller] is alain
15:03:42 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
15:03:43 <Zakim> +alain; got it
15:03:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfennell, alain, Leigh_Klotz
15:03:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, klotz, pfennell, alain, trackbot
15:06:28 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:06:43 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:06:45 <nick> zakim, code?
15:06:45 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), nick
15:07:06 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
15:07:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfennell, alain, Leigh_Klotz
15:07:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see unl, nick, Zakim, RRSAgent, klotz, pfennell, alain, trackbot
15:07:36 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:07:45 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:07:53 <ebruchez> All, sorry I will call a bit later today
15:08:12 <klotz> ok ebruchez irc only for now.
15:08:37 <unl> me too, phone set broken again
15:08:40 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:08:52 <nick> scribe: nick
15:09:36 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
15:09:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfennell, alain, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:09:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, ebruchez, unl, nick, Zakim, RRSAgent, klotz, pfennell, alain, trackbot
15:09:43 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:10:11 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
15:10:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfennell, alain, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, John_Boyer
15:10:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, ebruchez, unl, nick, Zakim, RRSAgent, klotz, pfennell, alain, trackbot
15:10:38 <nick> TOPIC: "Model-driven Views" thread on webapps
15:11:10 <klotz> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011AprJun/0406.html
15:11:12 <nick> klotz: Someone from google re-invented XForms
15:12:10 <klotz> Charles McCathieNevile says "That in turn was a pretty straight rip-off from Xforms which allows the  
15:12:10 <klotz> same thing with a little more power, and is even closer to what it seems  
15:12:10 <klotz> you're looking to do."
15:12:28 <nick> klotz: We should ask to talk with us
15:12:47 <nick> klotz: anybody against us contacting them
15:13:01 <nick> klotz: maybe we should keep our response general
15:13:08 <Zakim> + +1.307.544.aabb
15:13:22 <unl> zakim, +1.307.544.aabb is me
15:13:23 <Zakim> +unl; got it
15:13:25 <nick> klotz: I will send the response if that's ok
15:14:15 <nick> ACTION: klotz to repond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011AprJun/0406.html
15:14:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1796 - Repond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011AprJun/0406.html [on Leigh Klotz, Jr. - due 2011-05-11].
15:14:41 <klotz> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2011Apr/0019.html
15:14:44 <nick> Topic: transform function module
15:15:21 <nick> klotz: philip for the people on the phone your the most involved can you sumerize?
15:16:36 <nick> pfennell: Under my point of view it shouldn't be a function but an action, so the transform could be in the instance
15:17:34 <nick> nick: what is the difference between the function and the action concerning this
15:17:42 <Zakim> + +1.650.919.aacc
15:17:56 <ebruchez> zakim, +1.650.919.aacc is ebruchez
15:17:56 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:18:29 <nick> John_Boyer: with the function it is difficult to know if it is a uri or a node
15:20:46 <nick> John_Boyer: When it is in the instance you have depency problems because currently we don't add dependencies to the descendants  
15:21:30 <nick> nick: we have that problem also with id() function and some others, and said then that we could solve this by adding extra dependencies
15:22:03 <nick> John_Boyer: we didn't solve this on the wiki because we sidestepped the issue by only allowing uri's
15:22:13 <nick> pfennell: can't you use #id?
15:22:25 <nick> nick: you can't point inside the live instance
15:23:00 <nick> nick: you can only reference the static document which is present at load time
15:23:17 <nick> nick: we can't point to the live instance
15:23:36 <klotz> instance:#xpointer(instance('foo')/bar)
15:24:27 <nick> instance://id-of-instance#id could work too
15:25:20 <nick> klotz: we could define duration of the session to fetch the url's
15:26:15 <nick> klotz: in XSLT they define that the url's are de-referenced only once during a transform
15:27:36 <nick> nick: It is the same problem as we discussed for XPath 2.0
15:29:36 <nick> John_Boyer: We could determine the type based on the type of the node (if it is a URI)
15:30:18 <nick> klotz: We have to be careful that it also works for other transform language
15:30:23 <nick> too
15:30:34 <nick> like XQuery
15:30:42 <nick> klotz: Three case:
15:30:45 <nick> 1) URI
15:30:59 <nick> 2) it is top level element allowed by xslt
15:31:07 <nick> 3) If it is string
15:31:27 <alain> Sorry, I have to leave now... Bye!
15:31:31 <Zakim> -alain
15:31:32 <nick> John_Boyer: I thought sting would default to URI
15:32:00 <nick> klotz: then it won't work for XQuery
15:32:24 <nick> klotz: we could add an extra parameter pointing out the parameter value
15:35:30 <nick> nick: I don't like the idea of parameter that dynamicly identifies the parameter type
15:37:14 <John_Boyer> transform(object, objectType, inputNode?).  objectType would say how to interpret the object, xslt or xquery or what have you. 
15:39:41 <John_Boyer> maybe a mistake, but the actual type analysis on the first parameter could be used to decide whether it provides a URI or whether it provides the octets of the transformer
15:40:28 <nick> klotz: If we have support for multiple transform languages we can rely on the media type for a uri
15:40:39 <nick> klotz: but this doen't work for nodes
15:40:56 <nick> John_Boyer: what about file:// protocol 
15:41:17 <nick> John_Boyer: then you don't have media-types
15:43:19 <nick> klotz: they could determine the transformer type
15:44:10 <John_Boyer> objectType => mediaTypeOfObject
15:44:11 <nick> klotz: for the local objects it will be much harder to implement
15:44:31 <nick> nick:  #id  is also a pointer to a node
15:45:05 <John_Boyer> identifying  the type of the content referenced by the first param object is a separate problem from identifying the type of the first param object
15:45:15 <nick> klotz: we could go for two functions
15:45:49 <John_Boyer> Erik is asking about the type of the first param object, being just URI or also being a node whose string content *is* the transformer
15:46:16 <nick> klotz: we could say that it is nver a URI
15:47:15 <nick> nick: In my use cases I don't need to change the stylesheet dynamicly and therefor I would keep my stylesheets externally
15:49:16 <nick> John_Boyer: We could define the implementation of the function, so we could even in XPath 1.0 ask the processor what the type is, and if it is derived from anyURI we could dereference to URI
15:49:54 <John_Boyer> <bind nodeset="some/node" type="xsd:anyURI"/>
15:50:34 <nick> (discussion about what a valid URI is according XSD)
15:51:09 <nick> John_Boyer: what is the media-type of XSLT
15:51:18 <nick> nick: isn't it just application/XML
15:51:28 <John_Boyer> transform(some/node) would treat the node as a URI because that is its type, and this could be done in XPath 1.0
15:51:36 <nick> s/media-type/mime-type/
15:52:28 <John_Boyer> challenges: default is string, which seems wrong
15:52:57 <nick> John_Boyer: We have a challenge on the first parameter because the default is string and it should be anyURI for this
15:53:29 <John_Boyer> and for the second arg, the challenge is that there aren't good mediatypes for the transforms, e.g. xslt is just application/xml
15:54:03 <John_Boyer> s/default is string/default should be string/
15:54:07 <nick> klotz: We don't want to use type polymorphism for the first parameter so we suggest two parameters
15:54:17 <John_Boyer> s/should be anyURI/would be anyURI/
15:54:31 <nick> ebruchez: If you do two functions how do you handle the XQuery case
15:55:26 <nick> klotz: if it is a uri the de mime-type would be application/xquery
15:56:02 <nick> ebruchez: historically you specify a type in html, of course there is default
15:56:45 <nick> klotz: why do you come back with a proposal?
15:58:11 <John_Boyer> also a problem with current tranform() because the first param URI will return octets whose mediatype won't clearly identify xslt
15:58:56 <nick> John_Boyer: There is something wrong with the currently wrong with the transform function in the wiki because it doesn't has a media-type parameter
16:01:23 <nick> pfennell: another transformation language could be XProc
16:01:24 <klotz> The media type application/xslt+xml will be registered for XSLT stylesheet modules
16:01:39 <John_Boyer> wouldn't want to have to parse the application/xml content in order to get the root element namespace in order to decide if it is xstl vs. xproc vs. some other transformation.
16:02:46 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:03:06 <klotz> scrobe:klotz
16:03:08 <klotz> scribenick:klotz
16:03:23 <klotz> ACTION: ebruchez to propose new name for transform for uri in email.
16:03:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1797 - Propose new name for transform for uri in email. [on Erik Bruchez - due 2011-05-11].
16:03:33 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:03:35 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:03:36 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:03:37 <Zakim> -unl
16:03:40 <Zakim> -pfennell
16:03:42 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:03:46 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.782.483.aaaa, Leigh_Klotz, pfennell, alain, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, John_Boyer, unl, ebruchez
16:03:52 <klotz> rrsagent, make minutes.
16:03:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', klotz.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:03:55 <klotz> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/04-forms-minutes.html klotz
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