IRC log of css on 2011-05-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:05:06 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:05:06 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/04-css-irc
15:05:13 [plinss]: zakim, this will be style
15:05:13 [Zakim]: ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 55 minutes
15:05:24 [plinss]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:05:37 [Martijnc]: Martijnc has joined #css
15:05:45 [davve]: davve has left #css
15:06:42 [Martijnc_]: Martijnc_ has joined #css
15:19:14 [nimbupani]: nimbupani has joined #css
15:19:30 [nimbupani]: nimbupani has left #css
15:25:53 [glazou]: glazou has joined #css
15:26:07 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
15:26:07 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
15:26:08 [glazou]: rrsag
15:26:13 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:50:44 [danielweck]: danielweck has joined #css
15:55:35 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:42 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:55:52 [jdaggett]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:55:52 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [IPcaller]
15:55:58 [Zakim]: +??P1
15:56:03 [jdaggett]: zakim, ipcaller is me
15:56:03 [Zakim]: +jdaggett; got it
15:56:04 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P1 is me
15:56:05 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:56:30 [Zakim]: +plinss
15:56:55 [jdaggett]: probably me, i'm on skype...
15:57:15 [Zakim]: +??P35
15:57:28 [jdaggett]: nope
15:57:29 [johnjan]: johnjan has joined #css
15:57:32 [jdaggett]: i'm muted
15:57:41 [Zakim]: -glazou
15:57:47 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P35 is me
15:57:47 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
15:57:48 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
15:58:02 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
15:58:21 [johnjan]: zakim, microsoft is johnjan
15:58:21 [Zakim]: +johnjan; got it
15:58:34 [Zakim]: +??P37
15:58:40 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:58:40 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:58:46 [stearns]: stearns has joined #css
15:58:50 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
15:58:58 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
15:59:01 [Zakim]: +dsinger
15:59:09 [hober]: Zakim, Apple has me
15:59:09 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
15:59:10 [Zakim]: +fantasai
15:59:20 [Zakim]: -dsinger
15:59:25 [jdaggett]: wow, noise city...
15:59:28 [Zakim]: + +1.206.675.aaaa
15:59:40 [glazou]: Zakim, mute fantasai
15:59:40 [Zakim]: fantasai should now be muted
15:59:52 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
15:59:56 [Zakim]: +dsinger
15:59:56 [stearns]: zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:57 [Zakim]: +stearns; got it
16:00:22 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:00:24 [jdaggett]: wee, good conversations ahead...
16:00:29 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:00:30 [arronei_]: zakim, microsoft has me
16:00:31 [Zakim]: +arronei_; got it
16:01:01 [jdaggett]: glazou: btw, i'll ask around about the question you asked me next week
16:01:09 [Zakim]: + +47.21.65.aabb
16:01:11 [Zakim]: + +1.408.636.aacc
16:01:13 [jdaggett]: glazou: it's golden week in japan
16:01:14 [jdaggett]: yeah
16:01:22 [jdaggett]: ok, great
16:01:22 [smfr]: Zakim, aacc is me
16:01:22 [Zakim]: +smfr; got it
16:01:36 [jdaggett]: so he wasn't working on the css3 text spec
16:01:42 [jdaggett]: dear, dear
16:02:03 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
16:02:07 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
16:02:24 [Zakim]: + +1.650.618.aadd
16:02:26 [fantasai2]: fantasai2 has joined #css
16:02:27 [sylvaing]: Zakim, [Microsoft.a] has sylvaing
16:02:27 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
16:02:32 [glazou]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:32 [Zakim]: On the phone I see jdaggett, plinss, danielweck, johnjan, glazou, [Apple], fantasai (muted), stearns, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], +47.21.65.aabb, smfr, [Microsoft.a],
16:02:36 [Zakim]: ... +1.650.618.aadd
16:02:37 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has arronei_
16:02:38 [Zakim]: [Apple] has hober
16:02:38 [arno1]: arno1 has joined #css
16:02:40 [Zakim]: [Microsoft.a] has sylvaing
16:03:09 [jdaggett]: zakim, aabb is howcome
16:03:09 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
16:03:20 [glazou]: Zakim, aabb is howcome
16:03:20 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:03:47 [jdaggett]: must be a bad week for the semantic web
16:03:54 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:04:42 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:05:01 [danielweck]: http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips
16:05:03 [dbaron]: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
16:05:21 [Zakim]: + +1.650.275.aaee
16:05:25 [arno]: arno has joined #css
16:05:45 [jdaggett]: zakim, aaee is brad
16:05:46 [Zakim]: sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
16:05:59 [sylvaing]: scribenick: sylvaing
16:06:20 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:06:31 [sylvaing]: glazou: extra agenda items ?
16:06:45 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: I'd like to take over editing of the line layout spec
16:06:59 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: and an update on the charter if possible
16:07:11 [Zakim]: +bradk
16:07:18 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: CSSWG Charter
16:07:53 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: looking at the draft charter, the line grid spec ended on the charter as a medium priority spec even though we haven't discussed this
16:08:22 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: i'm not sure it should be a separate spec vs. being part of line layout. there seems to be a lot of overlap. why is it in the charter and how did it end up on the status page ?
16:08:55 [sylvaing]: szilles: I believe it was discussed in the context of line alignment across columns. and layout for east asian languages
16:09:10 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: sure but when did we agree to make it part of the charter ?
16:10:03 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: I don't think it warrants a separate spec.
16:10:19 [sylvaing]: szilles: for the sake of making progress it may be easier to list them as they are now
16:10:33 [sylvaing]: glazou: if it's on the charter we can work on it in the course of the charter
16:10:51 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: it is medium priority and the decision to make it so is unclear
16:11:14 [dsinger_]: This is a draft charter for discussion,right? And now we are discussing it.
16:11:51 [sylvaing]: szilles: the criteria for medium priority is a champion to push it forward. And Koji is the champion
16:12:04 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:12:08 [dsinger_]: Anyone can propose into the DRAFT
16:13:01 [Zakim]: +FabGandon
16:13:02 [sylvaing]: (agreement to wait for Chris Lilley)
16:13:12 [sylvaing]: glazou: what else about the charter ?
16:13:34 [glazou]: Bert, you're listed by Zakim as FabGandon ?!?
16:13:51 [sylvaing]: howcome: I'm championing GCPM so should it be medium ?
16:13:53 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:14:16 [sylvaing]: szilles: I think it also needs to get to LC or CR in the period
16:14:30 [sylvaing]: fantasai: we also used to require implementors working on it
16:14:39 [sylvaing]: szilles: that is a reasonable criteria for High Priority
16:14:53 [sylvaing]: szilles: should we poll vendors on implementation interest ?
16:15:24 [sylvaing]: plinss: we did a private poll last night. it could be helpful to update the data we collected last time
16:15:34 [plinss]: s/night/time/
16:16:22 [sylvaing]: glazou: we should stabilize the list and then run the poll
16:17:07 [sylvaing]: howcome: if those specs expected to reach PR are high priority then css3-multicol should be High.
16:17:20 [Zakim]: +??P13
16:17:30 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p13 is me
16:17:30 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
16:17:37 [glazou]: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter.html
16:17:46 [sylvaing]: howcome: everything being in scope I'm not sure we can read much in the hi/med/low ranking
16:18:00 [dsinger_]: We ought to prioritize staff, wg, f2f time etc. On the priorities
16:18:01 [Bert]: (I'm looking at the same as glazou)
16:19:26 [sylvaing]: glazou: taking the hi pri documents to CR is not the hard part. moving test suites along for them all is the larger work item
16:21:14 [sylvaing]: glazou: let's continue this discussion when Chris is present.
16:21:49 [sylvaing]: szilles: with the exception of jdaggett's and howcome's comment, does anybody on the call think something is missing or shouldn't be there ?
16:22:43 [sylvaing]: szilles: I thought ChrisL believed the draft was ready to go in front of the AC membership in two weeks so we should at least identify obvious bugs without waiting for ChrisL
16:23:12 [sylvaing]: glazou: my only concern is the number of documents in high-priority. are we creating an expectation of achieving PR for everything in high priority ?
16:23:47 [sylvaing]: szilles: there is no harm in having fewer things in high priority and exceeding expectations
16:23:49 [sylvaing]: glazou: yes
16:24:14 [sylvaing]: szilles: any good candidates to move from high to medium ?
16:24:40 [sylvaing]: glazou: this is something where poll data would be useful input since browser vendors commitment to implement and submit testcases is key
16:25:13 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
16:25:30 [dbaron]: Zakim, mute fantasai
16:25:30 [Zakim]: fantasai should now be muted
16:25:31 [jdaggett]: somebody is talking in the toilet
16:25:45 [dbaron]: Zakim, unmute fantasai
16:25:45 [Zakim]: fantasai should no longer be muted
16:25:48 [dbaron]: Zakim, who is noisy?
16:25:59 [Zakim]: dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: johnjan (13%), Bert (17%), SteveZ (72%), glazou (46%), [Microsoft.a] (13%)
16:26:02 [Zakim]: +[Apple.a]
16:26:06 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:26:06 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
16:26:10 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:26:58 [Zakim]: -danielweck
16:27:21 [Zakim]: +??P5
16:27:24 [dbaron]: I think it may be a good idea... but I'd sort of like to think about it... and perhaps try it to see how it goes.
16:27:31 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:27:31 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:27:35 [sylvaing]: dbaron, agree. something we should pilot
16:27:48 [dbaron]: (it == requiring test suite submission for dropping prefixes)
16:28:18 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: publishing updates to css3-lists and css3-images
16:28:31 [sylvaing]: fantasai: these are request from Tab. I'm in support.
16:28:41 [sylvaing]: fantasai: for lists, we should resolve outstanding issues and publish
16:28:51 [sylvaing]: glazou: css3-images. any objection to publishing a new draft ?
16:29:12 [smfr]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/
16:29:17 [sylvaing]: dbaron: this draft seems to get more features
16:29:45 [dbaron]: dbaron: was originally something we were going to get out quickly, but seems to be growing more features, which makes that harder
16:29:54 [sylvaing]: I'd like to move gradients forward in level 3; the rest in level 4
16:30:16 [sylvaing]: fantasai: one of the items was the image annotation which we moved out from backgrounds & borders.
16:30:37 [sylvaing]: fantasai: we have implementation of object-fit et al. but under other names. these are implemented but not in browsers
16:31:00 [dbaron]: dbaron: now I'm a little less scared after reading through the TOC more closely
16:31:22 [sylvaing]: glazou: should we extract the parts that are ready for LC/CR ?
16:31:58 [sylvaing]: (some agreement to thin Level 3 and move the rest to Level 4 WD)
16:32:12 [dbaron]: I think cross-fade() is also wrong -- using the wrong definition in terms of porter-duff.
16:32:25 [sylvaing]: glazou: it'd be better to do these edits before republishing
16:33:09 [sylvaing]: fantasai: cutting features is easy as long as we have WG agreement on what to keep/what to drop
16:33:21 [sylvaing]: fantasai: I can do the edits while Tab is away
16:33:36 [sylvaing]: glazou: I suggest we move this discussion to the mailing list so we conclude on the cuts at the next telcon
16:34:02 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0764.html
16:34:07 [smfr]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/
16:34:11 [fantasai]: ACTION: fantasai start mailing list discussion on trimming css3-images
16:34:11 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-320 - Start mailing list discussion on trimming css3-images [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-05-11].
16:35:06 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: I think it would be helpful if Tab were here to decide on what list items are to be edited out
16:35:40 [sylvaing]: fantasai: for complex counter style, we should define Chinese ideographic because it's been defined and implemented before. EPUB needs it
16:36:08 [sylvaing]: glazou: are we OK with publishing now ?
16:36:48 [nimbupani]: nimbupani has joined #css
16:37:00 [sylvaing]: fantasai: there was discussion about the longhand style for ideographic counters up to large numbers. this has never been published and I'd like to at least have it as an appendix so we can refer to it later
16:37:03 [nimbupani]: nimbupani has left #css
16:37:58 [sylvaing]: fantasai: it'd be an informative appendix today, we don't lose this info and we still have the option of making it normative in the future
16:38:28 [sylvaing]: fantasai: ...so the spec can limit itself to a 10k range but we don't lose the correct information for ranges beyond that
16:38:44 [dsinger]: and indeed, is someone wants to implement something that is robust into the trillions, they should be able to
16:38:54 [dsinger]: s/is someone/if someone/
16:39:03 [sylvaing]: howcome: I think there is merit in documenting this. I'm not sure it needs to be in the WD.
16:39:39 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: numbering systems are complex. I think the features need to target use-cases.
16:39:50 [sylvaing]: fantasai: my concern is that we have published definitions that were wrong
16:40:57 [dsinger]: "Note: this algorithm truncates at 10,000; previous CSS publications went to a higher limit but had errors in the algorithms"
16:41:26 [sylvaing]: glazou: I propose to publish this WD as-is
16:41:33 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: sounds fine
16:41:38 [sylvaing]: No objections
16:41:49 [sylvaing]: RESOLVED: publish css3-lists WD
16:44:23 [sylvaing]: szilles: when we decide to publish a WD, we should also think of people who do not follow www-style on a daily basis
16:44:27 [fantasai]: Steve: Publishing WDs is so that people who aren't following the mailing list daily can keep up with what's happening.
16:44:54 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: Line Layout module editor
16:45:09 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: I would like to take that up as css3-fonts is completed
16:45:29 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: dbaron is the current editor and I'd work with him to get his pending edits in and take it from there
16:45:47 [sylvaing]: szilles: I would like to be considered as a co-editor.
16:45:51 [sylvaing]: jdaggett: I'm fine with that
16:46:06 [sylvaing]: RESOLVED: jdaggett,szilles editors of Line Layout
16:46:17 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: Kyoto F2F - agenda items
16:47:27 [sylvaing]: szilles: since we have the workshop the day before, i'd like items discussed in the workshop to being our f2f agenda
16:47:42 [sylvaing]: szilles: so that some attendees of the workshop can easily attend both
16:48:05 [sylvaing]: szilles: I thought the discussions of css3-text and css3-writing-modes would be relevant to the workshop. any other ?
16:48:14 [sylvaing]: fantasai: these are the main ones
16:48:27 [sylvaing]: szilles: maybe Line Grid as well.
16:48:35 [sylvaing]: szilles: I would like to have a discussion of Regions and Grid Layout
16:48:38 [howcome]: howcome has left #css
16:48:58 [sylvaing]: glazou: everyone, please gather agenda items for Kyoto
16:49:18 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: CSS Snapshot publication
16:49:32 [sylvaing]: fantasai: also our handling of prefixing which is defined in the snapshot
16:49:43 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-2010/#experimental
16:50:02 [Zakim]: -danielweck
16:50:12 [Zakim]: +??P5
16:50:19 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:50:19 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:50:36 [sylvaing]: fantasai: our previous discussion was to clarify that section.
16:51:17 [sylvaing]: sylvaing: I thought dbaron wanted to think about it
16:51:23 [sylvaing]: dbaron: I think I'm fine with publishing
16:51:28 [sylvaing]: smfr: I think this is fine
16:51:31 [sylvaing]: howcome: no objection
16:51:57 [sylvaing]: szilles: i'm ok
16:52:09 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:53:29 [sylvaing]: dbaron describes a possible exception to the rule
16:53:44 [dbaron]: dbaron: I think we need some sort of exception for features that other browsers have already shipped unprefixed (e.g., 'text-overflow')
16:53:46 [sylvaing]: fantasai: yes, the CSSWG may allow certain features to be unprefixed for legacy reasons
16:54:27 [sylvaing]: szilles: I think it would be better for the WG to grant the exception
16:54:31 [Zakim]: +bradk
16:55:46 [sylvaing]: dbaron: maybe we can note this as an issue for this publication
16:55:48 [sylvaing]: no objections
16:56:09 [sylvaing]: RESOLVED: release the document once this issue has been noted
16:56:14 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: Logo
16:56:14 [glazou]: http://daniel.weck.free.fr/CSS-Logo/
16:56:20 [arno]: arno has joined #css
16:56:33 [sylvaing]: howcome: i like it
16:56:52 [sylvaing]: glazou: i like it too
16:57:19 [fantasai]: howcome and sylvain like the historic connection to the old logo
16:57:27 [sylvaing]: smfr: it looks 3d so i like it
16:57:27 [fantasai]: smfr: It looks 3D, so I like it :)
16:57:42 [jdaggett]: not a huge fan of gill sans though....
16:57:47 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:58:28 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
16:58:29 [bradk]: I'm not terribly excited about it. Why 3 boxes? Something about the box model?
16:58:40 [sylvaing]: glazou: thanks a lot to daniel for contributing this logo
16:58:48 [sylvaing]: plinss: i like it to but we were asked for a design brief
16:58:57 [sylvaing]: glazou: a proposal can't hurt
16:59:06 [sylvaing]: plinss: I'd like to capture the intent of what we're going for
16:59:26 [sylvaing]: plinss: i.e. 'this is what we want out of a logo and this is a proposal'
16:59:56 [bradk]: I'm also tired of Gill Sans
17:00:05 [Zakim]: -howcome
17:00:33 [sylvaing]: Bert: so who will produce a design brief ?
17:00:47 [sylvaing]: danielweck: I wrote my own. maybe we can just improve on that
17:00:59 [sylvaing]: fantasai volunteers bradk...
17:01:14 [danielweck]: CSS3 Speech
17:01:15 [danielweck]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0746.html
17:01:16 [bradk]: gee thanks.
17:01:17 [danielweck]: phonemes
17:01:17 [sylvaing]: TOPIC: request to drop phonemes from css3-speech
17:01:30 [danielweck]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/#phonemes
17:01:34 [Zakim]: -johnjan
17:01:51 [bradk]: It's 10:00
17:02:04 [glazou]: bradk: we're just a little bit over time
17:02:20 [sylvaing]: danielweck: the first link explains the current situation. there is a consensus that the phonemes property in the current css3 draft breaks the separation of content and presentation
17:02:50 [Zakim]: -jdaggett
17:02:59 [sylvaing]: danielweck: i also argue that EPUB will drive this issue forward using an SSML-based solution.
17:03:21 [sylvaing]: glazou: so you argue this is not part of css3-speech because it'll be defined elsewhere
17:03:35 [sylvaing]: danielweck: right. and also that this is more likely to be part of HTML given an EPUB solution
17:03:53 [Bert]: (I once proposed: 'phoneme-map: "ape" = \676\324\486, "bar" = \9084\7854\78=4' which picks whatever string actually occurs in the text.)
17:04:02 [sylvaing]: glazou: i suggest a note be included to explain this removal
17:04:08 [bradk]: As far as the logo goes, I don't have anything better in mind, and I thank Daniel for his work. I'd like to see us agree on a design brief and see something grow from that, starting with multiple sketches in order to define the direction for further tightening.
17:04:08 [sylvaing]: danielweck: that's fine with me
17:05:44 [bradk]: Usually when designing a logo, there is more than one round of sketches and more than one week after the first round in order to arrive at a final logo.
17:06:06 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:07:16 [Bert]: Peter's is indeed one possible implementation of my principle.
17:07:44 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:07:46 [Zakim]: -dbaron
17:07:51 [Zakim]: -danielweck
17:07:52 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:07:53 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
17:07:54 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:07:55 [sylvaing]: RESOLVED: remove phonemes property; include note to explain removal
17:07:55 [Zakim]: -[Apple.a]
17:07:57 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
17:08:02 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
17:08:03 [Zakim]: -stearns
17:08:04 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:08:33 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:08:35 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:08:37 [Zakim]: Attendees were jdaggett, glazou, plinss, danielweck, johnjan, dsinger, hober, fantasai, +1.206.675.aaaa, stearns, arronei_, +47.21.65.aabb, +1.408.636.aacc, smfr, [Microsoft],
17:08:40 [Zakim]: ... +1.650.618.aadd, sylvaing, dbaron, howcome, SteveZ, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, Bert, kojiishi, [Apple]
17:08:52 [fantasai]: bradk: I think the proposal was for you to draw up the design briefl
17:08:59 [fantasai]: bradk: not to design the logo
17:10:51 [bradk]: Ah. I could probably do that if I can find time. Maybe a draft to see if we all agree. I pretty much hate writing up design briefs, but I could probably knuckle down and come up with something.
17:11:52 [fantasai]: Working backwards from the existing logos, I'd say
17:12:05 [fantasai]: - Connection to the previous logo seems important to CSSWG
17:12:14 [fantasai]: - Sense of "cascading"
17:12:24 [fantasai]: - Sense of building something
17:13:42 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:21:46 [Ms2ger]: Ms2ger has joined #css
17:36:06 [plinss]: - modular components building on one another
17:36:42 [plinss]: - 3d logo vs 2d logo - more modern feel, impression of evolution from prior logo
17:37:19 [plinss]: - brings a feeling of "style"
17:40:55 [Ms2ger]: Zakim, please excuse us
17:40:55 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #css
17:41:42 [Ms2ger]: RRSAgent, please excuse us
17:41:42 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/04-css-actions.rdf :
17:41:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: fantasai start mailing list discussion on trimming css3-images [1]
17:41:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/04-css-irc#T16-34-11