IRC log of fx on 2011-05-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:57:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #fx
19:57:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:57:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:57:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #fx
19:57:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
19:57:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
19:57:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
19:57:36 [trackbot]
Date: 02 May 2011
19:57:54 [ed]
regrets+ smfr, chris
19:58:46 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
19:58:47 [Zakim]
19:59:54 [Zakim]
19:59:58 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has me
19:59:58 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
20:00:26 [Zakim]
20:00:34 [ed]
Zakim, ??P9 is me
20:00:34 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:00:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aaaa
20:01:00 [ed]
20:01:19 [Zakim]
20:01:28 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
20:01:28 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
20:03:53 [ed]
Zakim, who is noisy?
20:04:04 [Zakim]
ed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.206.675.aaaa (19%)
20:04:48 [ed]
Zakim, +1.2 is rik
20:04:48 [Zakim]
+rik; got it
20:05:24 [ed]
chair: ed
20:05:34 [ed]
Zakim, pick a victim?
20:05:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ed.
20:05:46 [shepazu]
Zakim, pick a victim
20:05:46 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose hober
20:06:06 [hober]
ScribeNick: hober
20:06:34 [hober]
Topic: Filter Effects 1.0
20:08:16 [hober]
shepazu: if someone defines a filter effect, but it doesn't exist or isn't supported, what should happen?
20:08:47 [ed]
20:09:32 [hober]
cabanier: if they don't exist they should be ignored
20:10:09 [hober]
ed: we apply the null filter in this case
20:10:32 [hober]
ed: which makes elements transparent
20:11:04 [hober]
ed: firefox, opera, webkit all make the element invisible
20:11:38 [hober]
shepazu: this is very unintuitive
20:11:52 [hober]
shepazu: will follow up in email
20:12:14 [hober]
ed: it would be nice if the element remained visible
20:12:21 [hober]
shepazu: what if you have a set of filters
20:12:36 [hober]
shepazu: you support a b and c, and don't support d
20:12:57 [hober]
shepazu: in a filter chain a b d c, what is the input into filter c
20:13:15 [hober]
shepazu: expects d to simply pass through the ouptput of b to c
20:13:58 [hober]
ed: in the svg case, you can have sub-parts that aren't supported; what should happen in such cases is hard
20:14:06 [hober]
ed: pass-through sounds fine to me
20:14:18 [hober]
shepazu: also need to address this to clip paths
20:14:28 [hober]
shepazu: if there's nothing to apply, nothing should happen
20:15:24 [ed]
feImage in firefox might be an example, supports raster images but not referencing other svg elements IIRC
20:15:56 [hober]
shepazu: does anyone have rationale to this behavior besides it's already how implementations behave?
20:16:31 [hober]
shepazu: I tried to apply some filter effects to a video
20:16:47 [hober]
shepazu: regardless of if it applies the effect I still want the video to be visible
20:17:09 [hober]
shepazu: we should nip this in the bud now
20:17:22 [hober]
shepazu: people won't use filters because of the very negative effect
20:18:02 [Zakim]
20:18:05 [hober]
Topic: 'enable-background' deprecation
20:18:30 [pdengler]
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20:18:53 [ed]
Zakim, who's here?
20:18:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shepazu, [Apple], ed, rik, anthony, [Microsoft]
20:18:54 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
20:18:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pdengler, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, anthony, dbaron, anthony_work, ed, shepazu, CSSWG_LogBot, plinss, TabAtkins, hober, trackbot, heycam
20:19:27 [hober]
cabanier: having access to the background is more about blending, should go in possible future blending spec
20:19:41 [TabAtkins]
...dammit, I meant to be in the call. One sec.
20:20:01 [hober]
cabanier: if we allow enable-background in filters, we then have more than one way of expressing the same thing
20:20:42 [hober]
ed: describes example of wanting to blur a background while applying a fitler; background may be unusually large
20:21:32 [hober]
shepazu: filter within a filter with enable-background gets complicated really quickly
20:21:44 [hober]
shepazu: we need to keep the filter spec simple
20:22:17 [hober]
ed: we still have to deal with backwards compat; there are some impls that do some of this
20:22:31 [hober]
ed: but there isn't much content on the open web that contains this
20:22:55 [hober]
??: which implementations support this?
20:22:56 [hober]
ed: batik, opera, both support some of it
20:23:04 [hober]
ed: adobe plugin had support for it
20:23:15 [hober]
shepazu: would you deprecate it in opera?
20:23:24 [TabAtkins_]
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20:23:32 [hober]
ed: enable-background is still used in the compositing spec
20:23:49 [hober]
20:24:08 [shepazu]
20:25:54 [hober]
shepazu: are you doing filters in IE? what happens now in IE9?
20:26:20 [hober]
pdengler: IE9 ignores it
20:26:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
20:26:33 [TabAtkins_]
Zakim, aabb is TabAtkins
20:26:33 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
20:27:46 [hober]
[questions about svg v. css compositing spec work]
20:28:02 [hober]
TabAtkins: is identical to what's being specced in svg
20:29:17 [hober]
??: we're not changing svg filter spec
20:29:33 [hober]
shepazu: svg filter spec is becoming *a* filter spec
20:30:11 [hober]
??: the importance is that we have a consistent model now, so that 2 or 5 years from now authors have consistent experience
20:30:37 [hober]
ed: there are some tests, but not many
20:31:11 [hober]
shepazu: if someone were to support enable-background when blending, would they break the future?
20:31:42 [hober]
ed: blending in terms of compositing or svg filters?
20:32:15 [shepazu]
20:32:22 [shepazu]
20:32:25 [shepazu]
20:33:36 [hober]
ed: don't know if you can get the same behavior between enable-background in compositing v. svg filters
20:33:45 [hober]
pdengler: there wouldn't be a collision
20:34:54 [hober]
??: in a css compositing spec, should enable-background even be there
20:35:21 [hober]
??: if you have an animation, it's hard to implement that performantly
20:35:42 [hober]
20:35:46 [hober]
20:36:20 [hober]
ed: can we refer to the compositing spec for the definition of enable-background?
20:36:42 [hober]
ed: background-image and background-alpha are the only things using enable-background property
20:37:46 [hober]
ed: removing, we'd have to do something for existing content, not sure what
20:38:36 [hober]
ACTION: ed to create test cases for background-image and background-alpha to see what current implementations do
20:38:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-31 - Create test cases for background-image and background-alpha to see what current implementations do [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-05-09].
20:39:08 [hober]
Topic: transform atribute vs. property
20:39:12 [hober]
ed: cameron isn't here
20:39:33 [hober]
Topic: CSS/SVG Animation, FX 2d Transforms updates
20:40:26 [hober]
anthony: next week i plan to make the fx 2d transforms updates
20:41:57 [hober]
pdengler: question about integrating transform attribute v. property
20:42:05 [hober]
shepazu: we've gone back and forth on that
20:42:36 [hober]
shepazu: from an authoring point of view, keeping them separate is desirable
20:43:23 [hober]
ed: cameron was objecting to it
20:43:45 [hober]
ed: haven't seen a proposal that addresses all of the issues with making it a property; the dom issues, etc.
20:44:28 [hober]
ed: will make it harder to promote other attributes to properties for animating with css animations
20:44:40 [ed]
20:45:20 [hober]
ed: we should see if there are more detailed comments from cameron on that
20:45:33 [hober]
ed: we would have to change the fx transforms spec to reflect that
20:46:35 [hober]
ed: any updates on the animation work in the css group?
20:46:57 [hober]
TabAtkins: nothing's changed
20:47:07 [hober]
TabAtkins: dean's been working on a better js api for animations
20:47:27 [hober]
ed: that's not been checked in anywhere
20:47:50 [hober]
TabAtkins: dean will move that along once he's fleshed out his experimental impl
20:48:07 [hober]
pdengler: will there be an fx meeting in kyoto?
20:48:50 [hober]
[discussion of when the overlap day will be in kyoto]
20:48:57 [hober]
ed: we should know svg meeting dates by thursday
20:49:58 [hober]
ed: the intention is to cover fx material in overlap mtg; not sure how many people doing the fx work will be there
20:50:47 [Zakim]
20:50:49 [Zakim]
20:50:50 [Zakim]
20:50:51 [Zakim]
20:50:52 [Zakim]
20:50:57 [Zakim]
20:51:14 [Zakim]
20:51:16 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
20:51:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, hober, ed, +1.206.675.aaaa, anthony, rik, [Microsoft], +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins
20:52:01 [hober]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:52:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hober
21:59:01 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #fx