IRC log of tagmem on 2011-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:00:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-tagmem-irc
17:00:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aaaa
17:00:45 [DKA]
DKA has joined #tagmem
17:00:46 [JeniT]
Zakim, P1 is me
17:00:46 [Zakim]
sorry, JeniT, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
17:00:50 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is me
17:00:50 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
17:00:52 [JeniT]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
17:00:53 [Zakim]
+JeniT; got it
17:01:18 [Zakim]
+jar
17:01:25 [Ashok]
Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:01:34 [ht]
zakim, code?
17:01:34 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht
17:01:36 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
17:01:37 [Zakim]
I am sorry, noah; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
17:02:35 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:02:39 [ht]
zakim, ? is me
17:02:39 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
17:03:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.845.270.aabb
17:03:09 [Zakim]
+??P13
17:03:28 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
17:03:28 [Zakim]
I am sorry, noah; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
17:03:30 [Zakim]
- +1.845.270.aabb
17:03:46 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, JeniT, DKA, plinss, jar, ht (muted), Yves (muted)
17:04:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ashok, DKA, RRSAgent, Zakim, noah, jar_, JeniT, timbl, ht, plinss, jar, Yves, trackbot
17:04:21 [DKA]
ScribeNick: DKA
17:04:23 [DKA]
Scribe: Dan
17:04:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.845.270.aacc
17:04:28 [jar_]
zakim, jar is jar_
17:04:28 [Zakim]
+jar_; got it
17:04:45 [Ashok]
zakim, aacc is Ashok
17:04:45 [Zakim]
+Ashok; got it
17:04:49 [DKA]
zakim, start meeting
17:04:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'start meeting', DKA
17:04:57 [DKA]
rrsagent, start meeting
17:04:57 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', DKA. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:05:12 [DKA]
trackbot, start meeting
17:05:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:05:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
17:05:16 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:05:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:05:17 [trackbot]
Date: 28 April 2011
17:05:47 [DKA]
Noah: Any regrets for next week considering the AC meeting?
17:05:51 [ht]
HT regrets for 18 May
17:05:51 [DKA]
[none heard]
17:06:17 [DKA]
Ashok: I can scribe next week.
17:06:24 [DKA]
Topic: Approval of last minutes.
17:06:36 [DKA]
Noah: move to approve.
17:06:43 [DKA]
Resolution: Minutes from last call approved.
17:06:48 [DKA]
Topic: Administrative Items
17:06:56 [DKA]
Noah: are you at the Privacy workshop, Ashok?
17:07:07 [DKA]
Ashok: yes. It's just started. Let's discuss next week.
17:07:17 [DKA]
Noah: Any priorities?
17:07:33 [DKA]
Noah: AC meeting in Bilbao. Who will be there?
17:07:51 [DKA]
DKA: yes I will be there. I will be chairing a panel on mobile stuff.
17:08:52 [ht]
Not
17:09:26 [DKA]
Topic: f2f planning for June
17:09:39 [DKA]
Noah: 5+ weeks until f2f.
17:10:22 [jar_]
issue 57
17:10:22 [DKA]
Noah: What are themes and priorities? Major topics they'd like to discuss at f2f? And/or commitments for writing?
17:10:35 [noah]
Jar, are you suggesting issue-57 for F2F?
17:10:37 [Zakim]
+TimBL
17:10:39 [jar_]
yes
17:10:42 [noah]
Hi Tim.
17:10:58 [DKA]
Ashok: I would like the client side state work talked about. I will write up something about client side storage.
17:11:51 [DKA]
JAR: I'm working hard to get a document ready [on issue 57] and we should be able to discuss at f2f.
17:12:01 [DKA]
Noah: How about the copyright and deep linking stuff?
17:12:55 [DKA]
Jenni: yes.
17:13:04 [DKA]
DKA: I'd like to "go to last call" on some of these.
17:13:45 [DKA]
Noah: on copyright and deep linking - we had a broader discussion. Then we agreed to work on terminology. But what is success here? Should that just be the terminology? Or is that just a first puzzle piece?
17:14:02 [DKA]
JAR: latest draft has gone beyond terminology.
17:14:38 [noah]
Feb F2F http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/08-agenda
17:14:40 [DKA]
Noah: Let's try to use email and teleconferences to focus that over the next two weeks.
17:14:59 [DKA]
Noah: HTML / XML? We could ask Norm to join us?
17:15:01 [DKA]
+1
17:15:03 [ht]
+1 to revisiting XML/HTML
17:15:04 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to ask Norm about HTML/XML at June F2F
17:15:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-548 - Ask Norm about HTML/XML at June F2F [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-05-05].
17:15:20 [noah]
ACTION-546?
17:15:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-546 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at June F2F Due 2011-05-15 -- due 2011-05-17 -- OPEN
17:15:20 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/546
17:15:27 [DKA]
Noah: I have action-546 which was to get in touch with jim gettys.
17:16:07 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
17:16:07 [Zakim]
I am sorry, noah; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now
17:16:11 [DKA]
... roughly: the issue is about the way people are building network devices and software to use the lower layer of the TCP/IP stack. TCP depends on flow control.
17:16:14 [Ashok]
zakim, please mute me
17:16:14 [Zakim]
Ashok should now be muted
17:16:50 [DKA]
... in a network with a bunch of links - one of the hops might be slower which can cause things to back up. The way TCP handles this is that it depends on packets starting to drop.
17:17:25 [DKA]
... TCP notices this and slows down. Problem that Jim has identified is that people are building network devices and browsers that are buffering too much or generating too much traffic and that can cause failure.
17:17:52 [DKA]
... he can give the details. Relevance to the tag is questionable. Decision is to invite Jim to lunch on Monday the 6th.
17:18:15 [DKA]
... Jim did feel that some of this is attributable to a misuse of http by user agents. [this could be architectural]
17:18:28 [DKA]
action-546?
17:18:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-546 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at June F2F Due 2011-05-15 -- due 2011-05-17 -- OPEN
17:18:28 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/546
17:18:45 [DKA]
Noah: Jonathan - anything on metadata other than issue-57?
17:18:55 [DKA]
JAR: Larry and I will get together at end of May to work on it.
17:19:02 [DKA]
Noah: persistence of references?
17:19:15 [DKA]
JAR: I'd like to make a decision on that a little later. Nothing new right now.
17:19:29 [DKA]
Noah: Registries - we'll have to ask Larry.
17:19:44 [DKA]
Noah: Security and webapp things.
17:21:22 [DKA]
DKA: Webapps APIs minimization. Also interaction models if I can engage with the webapps working group members.
17:21:47 [DKA]
Noah: Also security and privacy - privacy we should visit next week post [workshop]. Security also very important. Any comments?
17:21:54 [noah]
q?
17:22:18 [DKA]
JAR: I don't remember how we left John Kemp's draft but we should do something with it.
17:22:28 [Ashok]
+1 to JAR suggestion
17:22:50 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html
17:23:03 [jar_]
wish I had time.
17:23:07 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/08-minutes#item02
17:23:52 [noah]
<noah> PROPOSAL: close ACTION-417, and have John publish what he's got, slightly cleaned up, as a note with no formal status, but at a stable URI. Noah will help.
17:24:10 [noah]
<noah> Larry will help too, and would like this done in time for IETF in Prague.
17:24:23 [noah]
ACTION-515?
17:24:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-515 -- Larry Masinter to (as trackbot proxy for John) who will publish http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/security-web.html, slightly cleaned up, with help from Noah and Larry -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN
17:24:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/515
17:24:49 [noah]
ACTION-516?
17:24:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-516 -- Noah Mendelsohn to talk with Thomas Roessler about organizing W3C architecture work on security -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN
17:24:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/516
17:25:47 [DKA]
DKA: Should we talk about #!?
17:26:04 [Yves]
part of client-side state indeed
17:26:22 [DKA]
Noah: Yes as part of client side state.
17:26:39 [DKA]
Topic: HTML5 authoring
17:27:24 [DKA]
Noah: History goes back 2008. TAG met with HTML working group in Mandelieu. Concern that the HTML5 spec was a user agent specification, not a language specification...
17:28:03 [DKA]
... TAG agreed that it would be fine if HTML group continued with the authoring view - [a "view" into the full spec for document authors]
17:28:15 [DKA]
... "HTML5 Edition for Web Authors"
17:28:16 [noah]
HTML5 Edition for Web Authors
17:28:20 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110113/author/
17:28:32 [noah]
ACTION-379?
17:28:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language reference has been published -- due 2011-04-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:28:32 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
17:28:41 [DKA]
... we agreed it would be fine if it was taken forward on Rec track.
17:28:59 [DKA]
... reporting back on action-379. I am satisfied that it is happening.
17:29:23 [DKA]
... this will be carried forward as a rec track document. I would like to close action-379 and move on.
17:29:28 [noah]
closing ACTION-379
17:29:32 [DKA]
+1 to that it's a big deal and +1 to closing the action
17:29:47 [DKA]
Noah: Good news.
17:30:14 [DKA]
Topic: Draft on client side state
17:30:33 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/HashInURI-20110331.html
17:30:37 [DKA]
issue-60?
17:30:37 [trackbot]
ISSUE-60 -- Web Application State Management -- open
17:30:37 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/60
17:30:37 [Ashok]
zakim, please unmute me
17:30:37 [Zakim]
Ashok should no longer be muted
17:30:43 [JeniT]
I have
17:30:50 [jar_]
I have mostly
17:31:04 [JeniT]
Looked good to me
17:31:11 [DKA]
Noah: I'm pleased.
17:31:26 [DKA]
I read it but not at a detailed level.
17:31:52 [DKA]
Noah: [I think we should change the title.]
17:32:01 [DKA]
Ashok: Yes. We have a different message now.
17:32:14 [noah]
q?
17:32:39 [noah]
noah has left #tagmem
17:33:05 [jar_]
liked "you have a control you can move out of the page."
17:33:08 [DKA]
Noah: You have a reference to Jenni's blog. Is that an appropriate long-term reference.
17:33:18 [DKA]
[I think it's appropriate considering the source]
17:33:37 [JeniT]
You're welcome to copy relevant text
17:33:38 [DKA]
Ashok: I can take her arguments and summarise them.
17:34:06 [Yves]
ok if it's an informative ref (which it is)
17:34:14 [DKA]
DKA: Could mirror it in TAG space...
17:34:37 [DKA]
Noah: We could keep it as a blog reference or paraphrase it in the document.
17:34:52 [jar_]
this one, right? http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/154
17:35:03 [JeniT]
yes, that one
17:35:13 [DKA]
Tim: I think it's good for the TAG to keep stuff in W3C space for persistence.
17:35:32 [jar_]
email it to www-archive
17:36:00 [ht]
So we change that sentence to a standard reference, and the reference at the end uses a TAG URI and says it's a copy of Jeni's blog, with a URI for that too.
17:36:01 [DKA]
Noah: We haven't often reference in a TAG finding things like this...
17:36:12 [ht]
q+ to say yes
17:36:25 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
17:36:27 [noah]
q?
17:36:49 [noah]
DKA: Jeni could repost on TAG blog
17:36:55 [noah]
NM: Sounds good to me
17:37:24 [DKA]
DKA: Another option: Jenni re-publishes her entry on the TAG blog.
17:37:29 [noah]
ack next
17:37:30 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to say yes
17:37:40 [JeniT]
I'm absolutely fine with that, whatever makes it easiest to use
17:37:51 [DKA]
Henry: want to agree with Tim - either put a copy in tag space or do what Dan said.
17:38:26 [Yves]
TAG blog entry seems appealing
17:38:28 [Ashok]
q+
17:38:41 [DKA]
Jenni: I'm happy doing anything that's useful. Putting it into the TAG blog seems most appropriate. Copying parts of it into the document itself might be better, if appropriate.
17:38:45 [noah]
I have no problem linking >both< the original Jeni blog, to give credit where it's due, and a W3C blog copy, advertised as stable.
17:38:52 [noah]
ack next
17:38:59 [DKA]
s/Jenni/Jeni/
17:39:43 [DKA]
Ashok: level of detail between the two are different. I'd rather link to a stable document.
17:39:52 [noah]
q?
17:40:07 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/HashInURI-20110331.html#BestPractices
17:40:27 [DKA]
Noah: Last thing - section on Best Practices.
17:40:36 [DKA]
... 3 bullets [reads doc]
17:40:46 [JeniT]
+1
17:41:05 [DKA]
Noah: First bullet - any comments?
17:41:17 [JeniT]
q+
17:41:24 [timbl]
q+
17:41:25 [DKA]
... second bullet - any comments? this is effectively saying "google maps is broken"...
17:41:56 [timbl]
q+ to ask whether there is a good reason for that behavior that they don't change the URI at every move
17:42:25 [DKA]
[some discussion on what google maps does]
17:42:53 [noah]
ack next
17:43:24 [timbl]
Noah: Google maps does the right thing with forward and back
17:43:47 [DKA]
Jeni: I think it is a bit strong. I think it's going to be up to the developer to determine what's appropriate for their application. I think it would be strong if it said must but Ok to say "should".
17:44:16 [noah]
Tim, I believe the answer is, that they didn't want to use #, because it doesn't work right with non-Javascript clients, and in older browsers that precluded updating the address bar
17:44:21 [noah]
ack next
17:44:22 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to ask whether there is a good reason for that behavior that they don't change the URI at every move
17:44:46 [noah]
q+ to answer Tim
17:45:15 [noah]
ack next
17:45:17 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to answer Tim
17:45:20 [DKA]
Tim: Google maps and open street map have this behavior that they change your history but don't give you a snapshot in the address bar. There are reasons and the TAG document should discuss them. Possibly it's distracting? Possibly it's because of leftover issues with [older] browsers?
17:46:16 [DKA]
Noah: Google maps does the right thing if you use the link button to get a URI and then email it to someone on a mobile phone that has no javascript...
17:46:42 [noah]
TBL: Why are they not doing it now that they can?
17:46:44 [noah]
NM: Good question.
17:46:52 [DKA]
Tim: Why now, when google maps code is updated regularly, does it not [use the API] to change what's in the URL bar?
17:47:17 [DKA]
Noah: It would leave them in a position where they need 2 user interfaces...?
17:47:28 [DKA]
Tim: But they do that already -
17:47:50 [JeniT]
I suspect it's because the URIs are too complicated to generally expose to people
17:47:57 [DKA]
Noah: we have a recommendation for one way and google does it another way - we should understand why they do it that way.
17:48:13 [DKA]
Ashok: I can ask Raman [ who could talk to us about it ]?
17:49:06 [noah]
I think the question Tim asks is: "Now that more and more browsers support the new history API, why does Google Maps still not update the address bar on those browsers?"
17:50:00 [DKA]
Noah: back to the "best practices" - third bullet.
17:50:30 [Zakim]
-Yves
17:51:11 [DKA]
... it has advantages / disadvantages for #! ...
17:51:27 [JeniT]
Ashok does say "So far, this works only for Googlebots and no one seems to like it."
17:51:48 [Zakim]
+??P12
17:51:53 [noah]
q?
17:52:06 [DKA]
Noah: should it make more explicit recommendation?
17:52:15 [DKA]
Ashok: We can tinker with the wording...
17:52:56 [JeniT]
I don't think it's ok
17:53:55 [JeniT]
q+
17:54:27 [DKA]
DKA: I think we should recommend against it... or at least come down slightly in that side.
17:54:43 [noah]
I guess what I'm saying is: using the # leads you to messes like #! and kludges like the Google query stuff. It also seems to violate specifications.
17:55:00 [DKA]
Jeni: I think we need to strongly encourage people away from using # and #!. But not too strong.
17:55:04 [Ashok]
q+
17:55:20 [noah]
ack JeniT
17:55:26 [jar_]
q+ jar to ask why not consider new mechanisms? e.g. using javascript to 'resolve' query URIs
17:55:45 [JeniT]
I said that in the short/medium term it's impractical for people not to use #/#!
17:55:53 [noah]
I heard Jeni say that, in the short term, # may be the only practical option for some, and we should acknowledge that
17:55:55 [noah]
ack next
17:56:38 [noah]
When something has real architectural problems, I prefer that the TAG goes beyond just saying: well, there are pros and cons.
17:56:43 [noah]
q+ to talk about style
17:56:47 [Yves]
presenting pros and cons and let people decide based on their needs is better than say "no"
17:56:49 [noah]
ack next
17:56:50 [Zakim]
jar, you wanted to ask why not consider new mechanisms? e.g. using javascript to 'resolve' query URIs
17:57:02 [DKA]
Ashok: It's a matter of style. What I've tended to do is to say "if you use x, these are the benefits and these are the difficulties." I am a bit reluctant to stand up and say "&^£*&^@£ don't you do this." We should sumamrize the arguments on both sides and stop there.
17:57:20 [noah]
I believe Google maps uses Javascript to resolve query URIS
17:57:22 [noah]
ack next
17:57:23 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to talk about style
17:57:27 [DKA]
Ashok: Jonathan what you typed could be a reasonable thing to add.
17:58:16 [DKA]
Noah: People look to us for architectural guidance. When we think something is going to undermine the architectural integrity of the Web then we should say that. And I think this is one of those cases.
17:58:23 [jar_]
i.e. the javascript just implements an optimization... meaning is constant, implementation is variable
17:59:13 [DKA]
... I think it's appropriate for the TAG to be a little more than dispassionate. The Web is a system that connects people. If people violate the specs then it gets fragile.
17:59:27 [JeniT]
+1 *or* we change the normative specs :)
17:59:33 [noah]
q?
17:59:42 [DKA]
... if we agree that the world would be better then it's appropriate.
18:00:04 [Zakim]
-DKA
18:00:08 [DKA]
Noah: Thank you, Ashok. Very significant progress.
18:00:14 [jar_]
ashok, I think it's going well
18:00:15 [noah]
ACTION-481?
18:00:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state document with help from Raman -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN
18:00:15 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481
18:00:43 [Zakim]
+DKA
18:02:14 [noah]
ACTION-481 Due 2011-05-10
18:02:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-481 Update client-side state document with help from Raman due date now 2011-05-10
18:03:01 [DKA]
[discussion on where to put it - tag/doc]
18:04:31 [DKA]
Noah: I would encourage you to move it to /doc earlier rather than later. Then every time you want to discuss it spin off a dated copy in /doc
18:05:27 [DKA]
Topic: Briefly back to f2f
18:06:03 [DKA]
Tim: We talked about the high-level goals. Could we pick some things against which we're prepared to be measured. One of them was reviewing HTML5.
18:06:19 [DKA]
... We talked about metatdata in general.
18:06:42 [DKA]
Noah: We need to report to Jeff...
18:06:51 [DKA]
... we could do it at the f2f.
18:07:13 [DKA]
Tim: We could talk off-line [between chairs].
18:07:25 [timbl]
HTML5 review
18:07:30 [timbl]
ARCh of web apps
18:07:44 [DKA]
Tim: I could take html5 review and arch of webapps [to Jeff].
18:07:54 [timbl]
Core mechanisms of the web
18:08:06 [DKA]
Noah: I called it "core mechanisms of the Web." e.g. Mime, IRIs, etc...
18:08:59 [DKA]
... Architecture of webapps is new, html5 is new, but the Web runs on other things like http-bis, tcp/ip - we should also be spending time on that.
18:09:03 [ht]
I think persistence falls in this category as well
18:09:05 [timbl]
External dependencies of web arch - IRIs, TCP, HTTP bis? DNS
18:10:19 [DKA]
Topic: Copyright and Linking
18:10:23 [timbl]
We have to pick 2 or more things -- we can also work outside them
18:10:39 [Ashok]
zakim, please mute me
18:10:39 [Zakim]
Ashok should now be muted
18:10:42 [DKA]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html
18:10:49 [JeniT]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb-2011-04-28.html
18:10:53 [DKA]
ah
18:11:05 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/HashInURI-20110331.html
18:11:25 [noah]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html
18:11:33 [DKA]
Jeni: I have edited the introduction to try to reflect previous discussion. I would really appreciate any feedback on scope in introduction.
18:11:57 [DKA]
... things I've done - expanded section on hosting of data in the web. and made revisions to section on caching / copying.
18:13:11 [DKA]
... structure of the document as a whole. Is that what the group wants the document to contain?
18:13:26 [noah]
Tim: on the TAG priorities, it might be worth looking at the agenda for the Feb F2F? That indicates where we're putting energy: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/08-agenda
18:14:43 [DKA]
... what I've tried to do is to identify terminology that's used in licenses - how legislation talks about what servers on the web do - to be explicit about some of the issues that have been raised to the TAG. And then to be explicit about the aims of the document: provide an explanation of the way that material is published on the web to help inform people writing licenses and legislation
18:14:43 [DKA]
provide definitions of terms related to web publishing and linking that may be useful within licenses and legislation
18:14:43 [DKA]
describe the technical measures that websites can take to back up any restrictions that they place on the use of content they make available on the web
18:14:44 [DKA]
describe the mechanisms by which websites that reuse material can ensure they meet the restrictions on the use of that material, for example through attribution
18:14:49 [noah]
q?
18:15:05 [DKA]
Jeni: appreciate feedback on scope.
18:15:35 [DKA]
JAR: I think it's great. I like the direction it's going. I'm skeptical the attribution mechanism because it borders on giving legal advice.
18:16:10 [DKA]
I support it as well.
18:16:42 [DKA]
Tim: I support it. There is some question about whether W3C should support a policy. I think this document walks the right side of that line.
18:17:24 [DKA]
Noah: I support the document. The document doesn't say but could say what the consequences will be to the utility of the Web if certain policies were made.
18:17:41 [timbl]
** Definition of "representation" needs to match or not match that given in [webarch].
18:18:02 [DKA]
... I'm not sure we should do that.
18:19:28 [jar_]
q+ jar to ask whether 'shrink wrap' licenses are in scope e.g. legal question is whether american airlines 'do no link here' binding => consequence robots/browser innovation are hobbled
18:19:31 [DKA]
... I feel with deep linking, hosting, proxying, etc... we want to encourage people who are writing legislation to acknowledge that some restrictions that are impractical in order to keep the Web going. We do want to say some things along those lines. Explain the consequences of restrictions.
18:21:23 [DKA]
Noah: The caching is a good example. If you were to pass a law that prohibited caching then you should know the web will slow down in the following ways or become more expensive in the following ways. Another one - a typical use case for the web is that people explore what is there in order to find what is there. [in the case of the nytimes paywall] you don't know until after you've clicked the link that you've used one of your 20 views...
18:21:46 [noah]
q?
18:21:58 [noah]
ack next
18:22:00 [Zakim]
jar, you wanted to ask whether 'shrink wrap' licenses are in scope e.g. legal question is whether american airlines 'do no link here' binding => consequence robots/browser
18:22:03 [Zakim]
... innovation are hobbled
18:23:03 [DKA]
JAR: This issue goes back to deep linking - a bit different from copyright. How broad should this document be? We talked about shrinkwrap licenses -licenses that say "you should not link here".
18:23:20 [DKA]
Jeni: I kind of had that in the back of mind as something to mention.
18:23:50 [DKA]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb-2011-04-28.html#Linking should say that...
18:24:26 [noah]
To restate what I said earlier: I think it's really crucial that those who pass laws understand how important it is that users do not, in general, know where a particular link is going to take them, and that it's fundamental to the Web that it should be OK to >try< to do a GET on any link. The burden must be on the servers hosting the resource to deny access if there is a copyright problem.
18:24:36 [DKA]
JAR: There's a legal question on whether those contracts are binding. We can't answer that but there are consequences / chilling effects on innovation.
18:24:43 [noah]
s/restate/clarify/
18:24:49 [DKA]
... that's a theme that could be repeated over and over in the document.
18:24:53 [noah]
q?
18:24:57 [DKA]
+1 to JAR's comments.
18:24:58 [noah]
ACTION-481?
18:24:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state document with help from Raman -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
18:24:59 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481
18:25:11 [noah]
ACTION-541?
18:25:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-541 -- Jeni Tennison to helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN
18:25:11 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/541
18:25:35 [noah]
DKA: I'm happy to work on that aspect of the document
18:26:30 [ht]
Someone thought they ought to say that they don't want you to link to it. . .
18:26:46 [ht]
"they" is too diffuse
18:27:04 [timbl]
q+
18:27:04 [ht]
Some of AA undoubtedly _does_ want you to link to their pages
18:27:24 [noah]
q+ to say where I'd draw the line on linking
18:27:26 [noah]
ack next
18:28:09 [DKA]
Tim: the push-back you'll get legally is when there is a site that specifically makes its money from advertising and the value of the site is only linking to stolen content.
18:28:52 [DKA]
... would you also defend the site that links to stolen off-shore content?
18:28:52 [noah]
ack next
18:28:53 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say where I'd draw the line on linking
18:29:22 [DKA]
JAR: we can't answer the legal question but we can talk about the consequences...
18:30:19 [DKA]
Noah: There are lots of parts of the law when you presume the it's neutral unless there's additional context. E.g. naming someone vs. naming someone in the context of [a threat or incitement to violence].
18:30:32 [jar_]
"It is the TAG's opinion that" is not the same as "here is what's legal or not"
18:30:40 [DKA]
... illegal because of the way it's used not because of the URI.
18:31:05 [DKA]
Tim: that's an argument you will come across.
18:31:15 [jar_]
The following legal position would / would not support the following technical goal ...
18:31:34 [Zakim]
-ht
18:31:35 [DKA]
Noah - I think that is encompassed in the notion of speech.
18:32:06 [Yves]
there are other (and existing) laws for that
18:33:22 [Zakim]
-Ashok
18:33:26 [noah]
ACTION-541 Due 2011-05-10
18:33:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-541 Helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. due date now 2011-05-10
18:33:26 [Zakim]
-TimBL
18:33:26 [jar_]
noah: The question is intent. Depends on whether someone knows what they are saying, when they say a URI
18:33:27 [DKA]
Noah: Ok - next call in a week. Can we bump the date on your action, Jeni?
18:33:37 [DKA]
Adjourned.
18:33:39 [Zakim]
-Yves
18:33:41 [Zakim]
-jar_
18:33:41 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
18:33:43 [Zakim]
-DKA
18:33:45 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:33:47 [Zakim]
-JeniT
18:33:47 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:33:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, DKA, +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, JeniT, ht, +1.845.270.aabb, Yves, +1.845.270.aacc, jar_, Ashok, TimBL
18:33:54 [DKA]
rrsagent, make logs
18:33:54 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs', DKA. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:34:06 [DKA]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-tagmem-minutes.html DKA
18:34:07 [jar_]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:34:13 [DKA]
rrsagent, make logs readable
18:34:23 [DKA]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:37:22 [Ashok]
zakim, pointer
18:37:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pointer', Ashok
18:37:39 [Ashok]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:37:39 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-tagmem-irc#T18-37-39
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