IRC log of lld on 2011-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

03:52:22 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
03:52:22 [RRSAgent]
logging to
03:52:34 [emma]
zakim, this wil be LLD
03:52:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this wil be LLD', emma
03:52:42 [emma]
zakim, this will be LLD
03:52:42 [Zakim]
ok, emma, I see INC_LLDXG()12:00AM already started
03:53:55 [hideaki]
hideaki has joined #lld
03:54:03 [antoine]
antoine has joined #lld
03:55:33 [Zakim]
03:55:46 [Zakim]
03:56:00 [TomB]
TomB has joined #lld
03:56:03 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller is me
03:56:03 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
03:56:29 [antoine]
zakim, ??P2 is TomB
03:56:29 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
03:56:39 [Zakim]
03:56:56 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
03:56:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, antoine, TomB, ??P3
03:57:02 [Zakim]
03:57:24 [antoine]
zakim, ??P5 is kcoyle
03:57:24 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
03:57:40 [ikki]
ikki has joined #lld
03:57:51 [TomB]
Meeting: LLD XG
03:57:53 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
03:58:01 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
03:58:19 [emma]
zakim, ??P3 is maybe me
03:58:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P3 is maybe me', emma
03:58:20 [Zakim]
03:58:26 [TomB]
03:58:34 [emma]
zakim, ??P3 is probably me
03:58:34 [Zakim]
+emma?; got it
03:58:36 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
03:58:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, antoine, TomB, emma?, kcoyle, ??P6
03:58:40 [antoine]
zakim, ??P6 is jeff_
03:58:40 [Zakim]
+jeff_; got it
03:58:53 [Zakim]
03:58:59 [fumi]
fumi has joined #lld
03:59:16 [jeff_]
jeff_ has joined #lld
03:59:36 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
03:59:36 [Zakim]
jeff_ was not muted, jeff_
03:59:43 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
03:59:43 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
03:59:48 [marcia]
zakim, mute me
03:59:48 [Zakim]
Marcia should now be muted
04:00:45 [kosuke]
kosuke has joined #lld
04:01:37 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
04:01:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate emma
04:02:10 [Zakim]
04:02:28 [edsu]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is edsu
04:02:28 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
04:02:56 [antoine]
zakim, please mute me
04:02:56 [Zakim]
antoine should now be muted
04:03:00 [Zakim]
04:03:37 [marcia]
me too, when needed
04:04:08 [edsu]
scribenick: edsu
04:04:11 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
04:04:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see hideaki, antoine (muted), TomB, emma?, kcoyle, jeff_ (muted), Marcia (muted), edsu, ??P10
04:04:13 [Zakim]
hideaki has fumi, ikki, kosuke
04:05:15 [TomB]
zakim, ??P10 is DanChudnov
04:05:15 [Zakim]
+DanChudnov; got it
04:05:20 [dchud]
thanks TomB
04:05:47 [edsu]
Topic: Reports on the status of the main deliverable
04:06:00 [edsu]
04:06:36 [kcoyle]
Benefits section:
04:07:03 [kcoyle]
emma: it is important to start the report with a section of benefits that illustrates the value of linked data for libraries
04:07:14 [kcoyle]
... started this with a review of the 42 use cases
04:07:33 [emma]
04:08:08 [kcoyle]
... started with a bullet point list, then organized in terms of 'benefits for whom?" -- everyone, librarians, developers, organizations
04:08:31 [emma]
04:08:45 [kcoyle]
... then wrote summarizing text
04:09:15 [kcoyle]
... main benefit is that everything will have a URI so it can be referenced and de-referenced
04:09:30 [kcoyle]
... and will make it possible to pull together data
04:10:01 [kcoyle]
... then benefits for different users, like researchers, etc.
04:10:57 [edsu]
scribenick: edsu
04:11:01 [edsu]
Topic: Issues
04:11:21 [edsu]
kcoyle: we began with the use cases, and extracted from them all the issues and problems that were identified
04:12:08 [edsu]
kcoyle: we brought these together and came up w/ 3 different categories: management, collaboration and extending of standards, library standards themselves
04:12:11 [edsu]
04:13:09 [edsu]
kcoyle: libraries by their nature work in a stable and somewhat unchanging environment, and how this effects making changes to linked data: price, rights ... and how libraries have large amounts of data already, and how this needs to get translated into this new format
04:13:15 [edsu]
kcoyle: that's the high level
04:13:54 [edsu]
TomB: to elborate on this point of translation: we want to make reference to different design decisions that can be made in transation, but we don't want to go into too much detail
04:14:10 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
04:14:10 [Zakim]
jeff_ should no longer be muted
04:14:17 [edsu]
Topic: Relevant Technologies
04:14:21 [lukose]
lukose has joined #lld
04:14:35 [edsu]
TomB: this is a good lead in to the next topic
04:14:35 [jeff_]
04:14:53 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
04:14:53 [Zakim]
jeff_ was not muted, jeff_
04:14:53 [TomB]
ack jeff_
04:15:05 [jeff_]
can't hear me?
04:15:09 [antoine]
04:15:12 [edsu]
jeff_: not yet :-)
04:15:13 [marcia]
04:15:15 [emma]
zakim, unmute antoine
04:15:15 [Zakim]
antoine should no longer be muted
04:15:23 [jeff_]
04:15:25 [marcia]
Antoine, yes I can speak about our part
04:15:31 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
04:15:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see hideaki, antoine, TomB, emma?, kcoyle, jeff_, Marcia (muted), edsu, DanChudnov
04:15:32 [emma]
zakim, unmute marcia
04:15:33 [Zakim]
hideaki has fumi, ikki, kosuke
04:15:33 [Zakim]
Marcia should no longer be muted
04:15:41 [marcia]
about the vocabulary?
04:15:55 [emma]
zakim, who's here ?
04:15:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see hideaki, antoine, TomB, emma?, kcoyle, jeff_, Marcia, edsu, DanChudnov
04:15:57 [Zakim]
hideaki has fumi, ikki, kosuke
04:16:07 [edsu]
marcia: i can talk about vocabulary and dataset deliverable
04:16:28 [jeff_]
I may have fixed my problem
04:16:39 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
04:16:39 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
04:16:46 [edsu]
Topic: Available data: vocabularies and datasets
04:17:12 [edsu]
marcia: in general we have two main parts
04:17:19 [emma]
zakim, mute antoine
04:17:19 [Zakim]
antoine should now be muted
04:17:20 [TomB]
Jeff, you can pick up after Marcia and Antoine have presented
04:17:48 [edsu]
marcia: metadata element sets (rdf schemas, owl ontologies)
04:18:10 [TomB]
04:18:11 [edsu]
marcia: there is a plan that antoine will draw a picture of how metadata terms are reused by each other
04:18:25 [edsu]
marcia: the 2nd major part includes the value-vocabularies and datasets
04:18:47 [edsu]
marcia: the idea is to use the linked-open-data registered in the ckan to show what is relevant for library linked data
04:19:10 [edsu]
marcia: value vocabularies can be used to cover entities and subject vocabularies
04:19:26 [edsu]
marcia: most of the vocabularies are mentioned in the use cases
04:19:45 [edsu]
... the part we haven't finished yet is on published datasets
04:19:46 [emma]
04:19:55 [edsu]
04:20:04 [emma]
zakim, unmute antoine
04:20:04 [Zakim]
antoine should no longer be muted
04:20:30 [edsu]
kind of interesting too:
04:21:00 [edsu]
antoine: that's the work of william
04:21:18 [marcia]
04:21:19 [edsu]
... we plan on having a specific section on vocabulary datasets, but we have not yet made progress on it
04:21:46 [edsu]
... the idea would be start with a summary, to start with the most representative vocabularies/ontologies and value vocabularies
04:22:09 [edsu]
s/be start/be to start/
04:22:50 [edsu]
... e.g. for frbr there are several ones, we would identify the issues: when there are more than one, and when there aren't any
04:23:30 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
04:23:30 [Zakim]
jeff_ should no longer be muted
04:23:32 [edsu]
... we have been working on the side deliverable to help us identify the issue first
04:23:41 [jeff_]
04:23:48 [edsu]
scribenick: kcoyle
04:23:51 [Zakim]
04:24:06 [kcoyle]
oops, we've got static
04:24:08 [TomB]
zakim, ??P11 is lukose
04:24:08 [Zakim]
+lukose; got it
04:24:52 [marcia]
zakim, mute me
04:24:52 [Zakim]
Marcia should now be muted
04:25:30 [kcoyle]
trying to explain linked data is a challenge -- i've written a few paragraphs to try to explain the relevant technologies
04:25:50 [kcoyle]
... but it's not just a question of having new tools; have to use domain-specific technologies, etc.
04:26:21 [kcoyle]
... the relevant technologies are allowing us to create the infrastructure; it's not tools, but it's about taking the data we have today
04:26:33 [emma]
s/trying/Jeff: Trying
04:26:39 [kcoyle]
... and mapping to these new technologies; leaving our current infrastructure in place
04:27:19 [kcoyle]
... sees 3-4 different categories of things happening; like take existing relational databases and map those to technologies
04:28:03 [kcoyle]
... can store new data in new ways that aren't as hard to map as our old schemas
04:28:34 [kcoyle]
... use OWL-based designed technologies; there are tools to help us do that development
04:28:54 [kcoyle]
04:29:35 [kcoyle]
... then there is the controlled vocabulary level, such as SKOS; not classes or properties, but usable vocabularies
04:29:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate antoine
04:30:18 [kcoyle]
... modeling question between what things are best described in OWL and what in SKOS
04:30:40 [kcoyle]
... much of this gets off-loaded to W3C as the keeper of RDF / Semantic Web standards
04:30:52 [edsu]
q+ to ask about using web frameworks and rdfa
04:30:58 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
04:30:58 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
04:31:17 [TomB]
ack edsu
04:31:17 [Zakim]
edsu, you wanted to ask about using web frameworks and rdfa
04:31:24 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
04:31:24 [Zakim]
jeff_ should no longer be muted
04:32:18 [TomB]
Edsu: A-ha moment for me: Django tools made it easy to create a Website with URIs - that I could use that for publishing RDF too.
04:32:42 [kosuke_]
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04:32:47 [keven]
is there any tech (or policy guidelines) can be used to keep the linkage in linked data (esp. the which used in the name spaces) more sustainable, like cache technology. For the maintainance of the links in linked data is quite fatal.
04:32:57 [TomB]
...Cobble together some RDF/XML. Karen in Open Library: Web publishing framework - created templates that would generate RDF.
04:33:36 [emma]
zakim, mute tomeB
04:33:36 [Zakim]
sorry, emma, I do not know which phone connection belongs to tomeB
04:33:39 [TomB]
...Seems overwhelming when people discuss SW tech stack - "convert all your data", "you need a SPARQL endpoint" - developers tune out.
04:34:10 [TomB]
...Legacy systems that we have. Do not have to discard to do something useful.
04:34:50 [antoine]
@keven: sthg like that?
04:35:02 [TomB]
Jeff: In my case, played with Rails - still doing domain models - object-oriented classes - variables get mapped to database. Tried hard. Could produce RDF that way, but frustrating.
04:35:24 [keven]
ok thanks to antonie. i'll look into that
04:35:29 [TomB]
...That's why I like ?DVRQ database - do in two days what I spent six months doing with Rails.
04:35:39 [TomB]
Edsu: Opposite experience.
04:36:20 [TomB]
Jeff: Maybe walk thru the steps I took. Compare scaffolding languages. Important that we be able to do with data we have. Chance to start to migrate.
04:37:00 [TomB]
Edsu: RDFa. Rails and Django.
04:37:25 [TomB]
Jeff: But Grails has default URI pattern. Now you're stuck. URIs a huge problem - designing good ones.
04:38:15 [TomB]
Edsu: Haven't had any trouble - optimized for defining URI spaces. Get you thinking about resources and how am I naming them. Web developers looking at this section would want to see this.
04:38:20 [TomB]
Jeff: Compare approaches.
04:38:30 [edsu]
scribenick: edsu
04:39:16 [edsu]
keven: are there any policies for keeping the linkage in linked data, e.g. which namespaces are used, using cache technologies to help maintain links
04:40:02 [edsu]
jeff_: caching is normally for network efficiency ; the domain not being supported anymore is a bit different
04:40:17 [edsu]
jeff_: imagine dbpedia going away ... i don't know what the answer is
04:40:27 [edsu]
jeff_: publishing the information in bulk can help
04:40:30 [keven]
thx anyway
04:40:42 [edsu]
q+ to mention 301
04:40:57 [edsu]
TomB: any more questions can be typed into IRC
04:41:03 [TomB]
ack edsu
04:41:03 [Zakim]
edsu, you wanted to mention 301
04:41:09 [keven]
do you have any comments on drupal used for linked data application?
04:41:36 [marcia]
ed: big search engines look at things that moves
04:41:39 [keven]
we plan to have a try on drupal to publish some exprimental biblio data
04:41:45 [jeff_]
The PURL server can help too. Somebody could step in.
04:41:50 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
04:41:50 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
04:42:23 [marcia]
ed: this is the architecture of the Web issue
04:42:34 [TomB]
Edsu: Do a 301 redirect when a site moves permanently to another location. People who care about link integrity - don't want to serve up dead links - part of the architecture. Link rot. Identifiers break. They do not give the URI enough respect.
04:42:42 [lukose]
are there any guideline for representing and linking the "DataSet" and the "Model" used in producing the results outlined in a scientific publication, to the "meta-data" of the publication?
04:43:22 [lukose]
04:43:25 [edsu]
kcoyle: is this about the underlying data?
04:43:47 [kosuke_]
@keven are you using this module?
04:43:48 [lukose]
absolutely correct!
04:43:50 [edsu]
TomB: so linking a scientific publication with the data used
04:43:51 [marcia]
tom: this is about linking sci publication with the data used to describe the publication
04:44:03 [edsu]
04:44:09 [marcia]
... is there a standard way to link the two?
04:44:09 [keven]
@kosuke: yes
04:44:39 [edsu]
04:44:45 [marcia]
ed: someone sent a link to this article
04:44:47 [emma]
suggest to look at
04:45:21 [TomB]
Edsu: Link to D-lib article in January - looking at this problem. Looking at LD approaches to linking data to publications. A consortium that started in 2009.
04:45:51 [jeff_]
zakim, unmute me
04:45:51 [Zakim]
jeff_ should no longer be muted
04:45:56 [TomB]
...Herbert van de Sompel - OAI-ORE.
04:46:02 [emma]
zakim, mute me
04:46:02 [Zakim]
emma? should now be muted
04:46:23 [TomB]
Jeff: Hard time understanding OAI-ORE - aggregations nice, but what are its boundaries? How do you draw those boundaries.
04:46:25 [edsu]
jeff_: hard to imagine what the boundaries of aggregations are in oai-ore and how to draw those boundaries
04:46:42 [edsu]
antoine: i think ore could be used, but there is no standard way to use it to link articles to datasets
04:46:52 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
04:46:52 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
04:46:52 [edsu]
antoine: i think it's still an active topic of research
04:47:10 [TomB]
Antoine: ORE could be used but there is no standard way to use it for linking articles to datasets. Still a topic of research. Alot of activitity about scientific data. Have not heard about standard ways.
04:47:14 [edsu]
... i've not heard of standard ways, but there are lots of things happening
04:47:28 [emma]
zakim, unmute me
04:47:28 [Zakim]
emma? should no longer be muted
04:47:31 [edsu]
lukose: good question :)
04:47:32 [kcoyle]
just found this:
04:47:36 [lukose]
ok, thanks guys.... this is an interesting challange...
04:47:53 [antoine]
could be interesting to mention in report!
04:48:00 [edsu]
04:48:28 [edsu]
TomB: perhaps you could consider mentioning it in your section?
04:48:47 [jeff_]
The Dryad project at UNC Chapel Hill is working on relating scientific publications with scientific data sets
04:48:49 [marcia]
D-Lib article:
04:49:19 [marcia]
D-Lib: isCitedBy: A Metadata Scheme for DataCite
04:49:46 [edsu]
antoine: i think it's more of a research area
04:50:09 [jeff_]
04:50:46 [edsu]
edsu: might make sense to capture it as a possible vocabulary gap
04:51:03 [marcia]
D-Lib issue on research data:
04:51:29 [edsu]
TomB: we need to have a good elevator pitch, or top-level story
04:51:45 [edsu]
... one problem we have is that libraries have changed technologies many times
04:51:54 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
04:51:54 [Zakim]
jeff_ was already muted, jeff_
04:52:02 [edsu]
... the movement to linked data could look like another one
04:52:12 [marcia]
TomB: * antoine, maybe we need to add that metadata scheme even though no use case
04:52:52 [edsu]
... we want to convey that there is a paradigm shift between record based data with statement based data
04:53:23 [marcia]
04:53:26 [edsu]
... the report is targeted at decision makers, who will be in a position to set policy within their organisations
04:53:45 [edsu]
TomB: any final questions in the 7 minutes remaining?
04:54:15 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
04:54:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate emma
04:54:32 [edsu]
TomB: any comments from malaysia, china and japan on how the linked data idea is being perceived, and what sort of arguments do we need to put into place in order to convince decision makers that this is something they should devote some resources to
04:54:39 [marcia]
Tom: do you want to talk: Recommendations (Karen, Tom)
04:55:35 [edsu]
hideaki: is it for leaders of libraries and museums?
04:55:35 [kcoyle]
and top level managers, no?
04:55:41 [edsu]
TomB: yes
04:56:44 [TomB]
Hideaki: in Japan. To decision-makers, we often have to explain benefits of RDF. Prefer to have simple explanations.
04:56:56 [edsu]
04:57:05 [lukose]
my challange is in creating awareness of the LOD developments arround the world, to our local lib (national archive, national lib, etc....), so I am conducting workshops...the next challange is the benefits of this to the organization.
04:58:01 [marcia]
TomB: that is exactly what we are trying to summarize just 3-4 pages
04:58:11 [antoine]
q+ on reviewing or contrib to recs
04:58:16 [marcia]
.. the benifits for different categories
04:58:17 [TomB]
ack antoine
04:58:17 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to comment on reviewing or contrib to recs
04:58:19 [edsu]
TomB: that's why we're trying to boil down the high level benefits for different groups
04:58:20 [keven]
usually decision makers in library circle used to adopt turn-key solutions for them. they don't care about the linked data technology. so the benefit for them is important to get conciousness. for the techie people they need tools, tools, tools.
04:58:26 [marcia]
.. for librarians, developers
04:58:54 [lukose]
yes, I would very much like to help....
04:59:10 [edsu]
antoine: could hideaki and keven play a more formal role in reviewing the benefits? since they have to talk to decision makers it would be great to have them look at it
04:59:22 [edsu]
04:59:43 [kcoyle]
I also suspect that benefits may vary by country or region... so there may be benefits that we haven't identified?
04:59:54 [edsu]
TomB: currently the benefits secition is about 2 pages, it still has some rough edges, but it should be ready to be reviewed by the teleconference next tuesday
05:00:14 [keven]
i'd love to take a review on this
05:00:20 [marcia]
TomB: the benifit section is very important and to be discussed next week
05:00:29 [edsu]
... since it is so crucial, it would be great if we had your help
05:00:42 [kosuke]
kosuke has joined #lld
05:00:45 [marcia]
.. is any of you can volunteer to review, it will be very helpful.
05:01:00 [marcia]
.. we may sign reviewers on the May 5th
05:01:11 [antoine]
q+ on workshops
05:01:29 [edsu]
TomB: if you could comment on the mailing list which ones work and which ones don't ; also a review of the recommendations would be helpful
05:01:40 [TomB]
ack antoine
05:01:40 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to comment on workshops
05:02:43 [edsu]
antoine: one specific point about workshops and education, if there is any experience available in the kind of topic that should be mentioned in such workshops, what sort of targets, it would be really nice, it turns out gunter may not be able to contribute
05:02:45 [marcia]
Antoine: workshops on education, if anyone can jump in to make recommendations that will be helpful
05:02:59 [marcia]
.. especailly if there are expereince
05:03:10 [lukose]
I can make some contribution on my experience in doing these lectures and workshops...
05:03:21 [antoine]
05:03:32 [marcia]
*no, ed, I could not see
05:03:35 [kosuke]
@antoine excuse me, does "linking articles to datasets" in ORE mean "citation" in this topic?
05:03:45 [marcia]
*just try to duplicate
05:04:00 [edsu]
kosuke: yes we did look at that in the context of citation
05:04:06 [antoine]
@kosuke: not sure, maybe we could discuss that by email
05:04:14 [edsu]
kosuke: did you run across that wiki page?
05:04:15 [keven]
thanks for having me here
05:04:16 [lukose]
05:04:22 [Zakim]
05:04:22 [emma]
thx !
05:04:23 [Zakim]
05:04:25 [Zakim]
05:04:28 [dchud]
thank you!
05:04:32 [Zakim]
05:04:33 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
05:04:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate emma
05:04:37 [Zakim]
05:04:40 [Zakim]
05:04:41 [antoine]
zakim, please list attendees
05:04:41 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been antoine, TomB, kcoyle, emma?, jeff_, Marcia, fumi, ikki, kosuke, edsu, DanChudnov, lukose
05:04:51 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
05:04:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate antoine
05:04:57 [jeff_]
jeff_ has left #lld
05:05:01 [Zakim]
05:05:25 [edsu]
kosuke: here were our notes:
05:05:54 [Zakim]
05:05:56 [Zakim]
05:06:02 [Zakim]
05:06:03 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()12:00AM has ended
05:06:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were antoine, TomB, kcoyle, emma?, jeff_, Marcia, fumi, ikki, kosuke, edsu, DanChudnov, lukose
05:06:12 [edsu]
kosuke: that's actually how datacite came to my attention, when i was working on those notes w/ kai
05:06:48 [antoine]
rrsagent, bye
05:06:48 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items