2011-04-27T19:59:57Z RRSAgent has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T19:59:57Z logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-webperf-irc 2011-04-27T20:00:08Z Meeting: Web Perf Teleconference 4/27/2011 2011-04-27T20:00:17Z scribe: Jatinder Mann 2011-04-27T20:00:26Z ScribeNick: JMann 2011-04-27T20:00:53Z present: Jatinder Mann, Karen Anderson, Nic Jansma, Jason Weber 2011-04-27T20:01:06Z Sure Cameron, makes sense. 2011-04-27T20:01:21Z agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0074.html 2011-04-27T20:03:10Z present+ TonyG 2011-04-27T20:03:15Z present+ JamesS 2011-04-27T20:04:20Z Christian has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T20:05:02Z present+ Christian 2011-04-27T20:05:22Z present+ Zhiheng 2011-04-27T20:06:04Z zhiheng has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T20:06:18Z move to next agenda 2011-04-27T20:06:18Z I see nothing on the agenda 2011-04-27T20:06:28Z agenda+ Feedback and discussion on test case updates. 2011-04-27T20:06:38Z agenda+ Feedback and discussion on Monotonic Clock text. 2011-04-27T20:06:44Z agenda+ Feedback and discussion on Resource Timing Processing Model. 2011-04-27T20:07:01Z agenda+ Feedback and discussion on updates to Resource Timing and User Timing 2011-04-27T20:07:06Z move to next agenda 2011-04-27T20:07:06Z agendum 1. "Feedback and discussion on test case updates." taken up [from Jatinder] 2011-04-27T20:07:40Z Tony: The test case that you had mentioned in the mailing list looks good to me. 2011-04-27T20:08:45Z Zhiheng: I will send email with the test cases that I have submitted so everyone can review. 2011-04-27T20:09:06Z Nic: I'm a bit concerned with the persistent connection test case - this isn't a normative requirement of the spec. 2011-04-27T20:10:03Z Tony: What is the requirement in the spec that we are testing? 2011-04-27T20:10:22Z Zhiheng: domainLookup and others should be set to fetchStart... 2011-04-27T20:10:28Z Tony: This is a hard one. 2011-04-27T20:10:54Z Nic: I'm concerned we can't force the browser to get into this state. The browser could chose to open a new connection even if it supports persistent connections. 2011-04-27T20:11:16Z Zhiheng: I have tested persistent connection with most browsers (except safari) and they appear to be working as expected. 2011-04-27T20:12:27Z Tony: This is not normative, we shouldn't be testing conformance behavior for non-normative. 2011-04-27T20:13:24Z Nic: There is a requirement if a browser supports persistent connections, then a persistent connection should be used. 2011-04-27T20:14:05Z Tony: On the other hand, it means we have made a valuable API, as there is no other way to tell whether a persistent connection was used. 2011-04-27T20:14:57Z Karen: Only thing I can think of is flooding the network layer with lots of connections and checking it that way. Not sure if it will get us in this state. 2011-04-27T20:15:36Z Zhiheng: I agree that we want to leave this case at this time. Let's look at other low hanging fruit. 2011-04-27T20:15:53Z move to next agenda 2011-04-27T20:15:53Z agendum 2. "Feedback and discussion on Monotonic Clock text." taken up [from Jatinder] 2011-04-27T20:16:52Z We agreed that the new text is good, however, there was concern whether this should be made normative or not. 2011-04-27T20:17:20Z tonyg has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T20:19:04Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0072.html 2011-04-27T20:20:23Z Zhiheng: I have concerns with the last sentence: The user agent must record the system time at the beginning of the navigation and define subsequent timing attributes in terms of a monotonic 2011-04-27T20:20:32Z ...clock measuring time elapsed from the beginning of the navigation. 2011-04-27T20:23:15Z Jason: The goal is to reduce clock skew. Having a start point will reduce skew? 2011-04-27T20:24:08Z Is the issue about using a relative monotonically increasing clock? 2011-04-27T20:26:48Z Jason: There are two pieces: using a monotonic clock and using a baseline. Without using a baseline, you can get a skew. In one browser, you may get inconsistent timing between sites. If not normative or well defined baseline, tests cross-browsers will get different results. 2011-04-27T20:29:57Z Jatinder: Zhiheng, is your concern that if a better algorithm comes out in the future and we make this current text normative, browsers will not be able to innovate without being out of conformance? 2011-04-27T20:30:00Z Zhiheng: Yes. 2011-04-27T20:30:33Z Jason: If hardware comes with a better clocking algorithm, we can update the normative text in the specification to reflect that. 2011-04-27T20:36:01Z Kyle: Monotonic to me means that the clock won't be negative and it would deal this issue. 2011-04-27T20:36:08Z Present+ Kyle Simpson 2011-04-27T20:37:54Z James: I'm a fan with monotonic, but not a fan of UTC. 2011-04-27T20:38:23Z Jason: Can you clarify the divergence here? 2011-04-27T20:40:53Z Jason: Let's talk through a specific example. If you run some tests on Chrome today, sometimes you get a negative time. This is probably due to offsets and what not. But for navigation time, we want to ensure that the time is baselined to the navigationStart and the timing is always increasing and never negative. If you use the system clock, instead of your own internal clock, the system clock will always be monotonically increasing and will be aligned with 2011-04-27T20:40:57Z ...clock. 2011-04-27T20:41:20Z James: Oh, that makes sense. I thought you were referring to the clock on the Taskbar. 2011-04-27T20:41:26Z Jason: No, referring to the system clock. 2011-04-27T20:41:31Z James: That sounds reasonable. 2011-04-27T20:41:48Z Karen: The system clock is the system tick count. 2011-04-27T20:42:11Z Jason: Does the wording sound better with this context? 2011-04-27T20:42:31Z James: This makes more sense to me in this context. 2011-04-27T20:42:57Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0072.html 2011-04-27T20:43:20Z getify has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T20:43:36Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0072.html 2011-04-27T20:46:39Z Let's discuss the wording further on the mailing list, considering we all believe in principal with the text and making this a normative statement. 2011-04-27T20:46:55Z move to next agenda 2011-04-27T20:46:55Z agendum 3. "Feedback and discussion on Resource Timing Processing Model." taken up [from Jatinder] 2011-04-27T20:47:42Z move to next agenda 2011-04-27T20:47:42Z agendum 3 was just opened, Jatinder 2011-04-27T20:47:57Z a.http://www.w3.org/mid/BANLkTinAF%252Bo9XigG14=uo2Hz-W0dHhKPCw@mail.gmail.com;list=public-web-perf 2011-04-27T20:59:59Z Zakim, code? 2011-04-27T20:59:59Z sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is 2011-04-27T21:00:36Z Topic: Discussing the issue of including ID and Type 2011-04-27T21:00:50Z Jason: ID and Type will more uniquely identify dynamically fetched resources. 2011-04-27T21:01:00Z ...-Minimum information you need is the timing data and identifying the resource that is associated with the timing. 2011-04-27T21:01:20Z heycam has changed the topic to: Web Performance WG - conference code is 97373# (WPERF#) (heycam) 2011-04-27T21:01:25Z Tony: Worried about having all this additional data just for IDs. 2011-04-27T21:01:26Z jamesr has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T21:01:36Z Zakim, this is wperf 2011-04-27T21:01:36Z ok, heycam; that matches RWC_web-per(WPWG)4:00PM 2011-04-27T21:01:52Z Zakim, who is on the call? 2011-04-27T21:01:52Z On the phone I see tomayac, [Microsoft], +1.650.214.aaaa, ??P5, +1.512.851.aabb, ??P12 2011-04-27T21:02:37Z -??P5 2011-04-27T21:02:39Z -tomayac 2011-04-27T21:02:41Z - +1.650.214.aaaa 2011-04-27T21:03:14Z Zakim, mute ??P12 2011-04-27T21:03:14Z ??P12 should now be muted 2011-04-27T21:03:25Z -[Microsoft] 2011-04-27T21:03:25Z Zakim, unmute ??P12 2011-04-27T21:03:26Z ??P12 should no longer be muted 2011-04-27T21:03:28Z Zakim, ??p12 is me 2011-04-27T21:03:28Z +heycam; got it 2011-04-27T21:03:55Z + +1.650.253.aacc 2011-04-27T21:04:10Z Zakim, who is on the clal? 2011-04-27T21:04:10Z I don't understand your question, jamesr. 2011-04-27T21:04:15Z Zakim: who is on the call? 2011-04-27T21:04:33Z heycam: is there a README for zakim? 2011-04-27T21:04:42Z there is somewhere... 2011-04-27T21:04:47Z probably he just wants a comma instead of colon 2011-04-27T21:04:56Z why does the web client tab-complete with a colon, then? 2011-04-27T21:05:00Z Zakim, who is on the call? 2011-04-27T21:05:00Z On the phone I see +1.512.851.aabb, heycam, +1.650.253.aacc 2011-04-27T21:05:02Z http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html 2011-04-27T21:05:12Z hmm, pretty sure the last guy is me 2011-04-27T21:05:15Z jamesr, that's a good question :) 2011-04-27T21:06:12Z Zakim, +1.650.253.aacc is me 2011-04-27T21:06:12Z +jamesr; got it 2011-04-27T21:06:17Z Zakim, who is on the call? 2011-04-27T21:06:17Z On the phone I see +1.512.851.aabb, heycam, jamesr 2011-04-27T21:06:19Z +[Microsoft] 2011-04-27T21:07:46Z agenda+ Schedule discussions for Page Visibility, Efficient Script Yielding and Display Paint Notifications. 2011-04-27T21:11:33Z move to next agenda 2011-04-27T21:11:33Z agendum 4. "Feedback and discussion on updates to Resource Timing and User Timing" taken up [from Jatinder] 2011-04-27T21:11:46Z http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/PageVisibility/Overview.html 2011-04-27T21:26:43Z Topic: Discussing Page Visibility spec 2011-04-27T21:28:22Z Kyle: Privacy concerns. What if a page annoys the user if they are no longer viewing the page. 2011-04-27T21:28:37Z ...the event may make this easier. 2011-04-27T21:29:39Z Christian has joined #webperf 2011-04-27T21:32:35Z Jason: Popups are something the user agent already suppress. 2011-04-27T21:33:00Z Jatinder: A user agent may consider providing an option to not show the page visibility state. 2011-04-27T21:34:23Z Jatinder: Let's aim to have all three specs available on the http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ site in the next few days, so we can begin discussing these specs on the mailing list. This will give everyone some time to form an opinion. 2011-04-27T21:36:44Z ...We can discuss particular contentious issues on the call. 2011-04-27T21:37:29Z Cameron: As per my mailing list question, are there any constraints on the spec name based on the new charter? 2011-04-27T21:38:13Z Jason: No restrictions. The charter is worded to be vague enough. 2011-04-27T21:39:02Z trackbot, url? 2011-04-27T21:39:02Z Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, url?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 2011-04-27T21:39:16Z -jamesr 2011-04-27T21:39:17Z -[Microsoft] 2011-04-27T21:39:17Z -heycam 2011-04-27T21:39:19Z - +1.512.851.aabb 2011-04-27T21:39:19Z RWC_web-per(WPWG)4:00PM has ended 2011-04-27T21:39:21Z Attendees were tomayac, [Microsoft], +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.512.851.aabb, heycam, jamesr 2011-04-27T21:39:48Z trackbot, status 2011-04-27T21:40:08Z are we using tracker for issue tracking? (is what I'm trying to determine by asking trackbot. :)) 2011-04-27T21:54:21Z Cameron: As per my mailing list question, are there any constraints on the spec name based on the new charter? 2011-04-27T21:54:45Z Jason: No restrictions. 2011-04-27T21:55:02Z rrsagent, set logs world-visible 2011-04-27T21:55:13Z rrsagent, make log public 2011-04-27T21:55:22Z rrsagent, create minutes 2011-04-27T21:55:22Z I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-webperf-minutes.html Jatinder