19:59:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webperf
19:59:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-webperf-irc
20:00:08 <Jatinder> Meeting: Web Perf Teleconference 4/27/2011
20:00:17 <Jatinder> scribe: Jatinder Mann
20:00:26 <Jatinder> ScribeNick: JMann
20:00:53 <Jatinder> present: Jatinder Mann, Karen Anderson, Nic Jansma, Jason Weber
20:01:06 <Jatinder> Sure Cameron, makes sense.
20:01:21 <Jatinder> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0074.html
20:03:10 <Jatinder> present+ TonyG
20:03:15 <Jatinder> present+ JamesS
20:04:20 <Christian> Christian has joined #webperf
20:05:02 <Jatinder> present+ Christian
20:05:22 <Jatinder> present+ Zhiheng
20:06:04 <zhiheng> zhiheng has joined #webperf
20:06:18 <Jatinder> move to next agenda
20:06:18 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
20:06:28 <Jatinder> agenda+ Feedback and discussion on test case updates.
20:06:38 <Jatinder> agenda+ Feedback and discussion on Monotonic Clock text.
20:06:44 <Jatinder> agenda+ Feedback and discussion on Resource Timing Processing Model.
20:07:01 <Jatinder> agenda+ Feedback and discussion on updates to Resource Timing and User Timing
20:07:06 <Jatinder> move to next agenda
20:07:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Feedback and discussion on test case updates." taken up [from Jatinder]
20:07:40 <Jatinder> Tony: The test case that you had mentioned in the mailing list looks good to me.
20:08:45 <Jatinder> Zhiheng: I will send email with the test cases that I have submitted so everyone can review.
20:09:06 <Jatinder> Nic: I'm a bit concerned with the persistent connection test case - this isn't a normative requirement of the spec.
20:10:03 <Jatinder> Tony: What is the requirement in the spec that we are testing?
20:10:22 <Jatinder> Zhiheng: domainLookup and others should be set to fetchStart...
20:10:28 <Jatinder> Tony: This is a hard one.
20:10:54 <Jatinder> Nic: I'm concerned we can't force the browser to get into this state. The browser could chose to open a new connection even if it supports persistent connections.
20:11:16 <Jatinder> Zhiheng: I have tested persistent connection with most browsers (except safari) and they appear to be working as expected.
20:12:27 <Jatinder> Tony: This is not normative, we shouldn't be testing conformance behavior for non-normative.
20:13:24 <Jatinder> Nic: There is a requirement if a browser supports persistent connections, then a persistent connection should be used.
20:14:05 <Jatinder> Tony: On the other hand, it means we have made a valuable API, as there is no other way to tell whether a persistent connection was used.
20:14:57 <Jatinder> Karen: Only thing I can think of is flooding the network layer with lots of connections and checking it that way. Not sure if it will get us in this state. 
20:15:36 <Jatinder> Zhiheng: I agree that we want to leave this case at this time. Let's look at other low hanging fruit.
20:15:53 <Jatinder> move to next agenda
20:15:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Feedback and discussion on Monotonic Clock text." taken up [from Jatinder]
20:16:52 <Jatinder> We agreed that the new text is good, however, there was concern whether this should be made normative or not.
20:17:20 <tonyg> tonyg has joined #webperf
20:19:04 <Jatinder> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0072.html
20:20:23 <Jatinder> Zhiheng: I have concerns with the last sentence: The user agent must record the system time at the beginning of the navigation and define subsequent timing attributes in terms of a monotonic
20:20:32 <Jatinder> ...clock measuring time elapsed from the beginning of the navigation.
20:23:15 <Jatinder> Jason: The goal is to reduce clock skew. Having a start point will reduce skew?
20:24:08 <Jatinder> Is the issue about using a relative monotonically increasing clock?
20:26:48 <Jatinder> Jason: There are two pieces: using a monotonic clock and using a baseline. Without using a baseline, you can get a skew. In one browser, you may get inconsistent timing between sites. If not normative or well defined baseline, tests cross-browsers will get different results.
20:29:57 <Jatinder> Jatinder: Zhiheng, is your concern that if a better algorithm comes out in the future and we make this current text normative, browsers will not be able to innovate without being out of conformance?
20:30:00 <Jatinder> Zhiheng: Yes.
20:30:33 <Jatinder> Jason: If hardware comes with a better clocking algorithm, we can update the normative text in the specification to reflect that.
20:36:01 <Jatinder> Kyle: Monotonic to me means that the clock won't be negative and it would deal this issue.
20:36:08 <Jatinder> Present+ Kyle Simpson
20:37:54 <Jatinder> James: I'm a fan with monotonic, but not a fan of UTC.
20:38:23 <Jatinder> Jason: Can you clarify the divergence here? 
20:40:53 <Jatinder> Jason: Let's talk through a specific example. If you run some tests on Chrome today, sometimes you get a negative time. This is probably due to offsets and what not. But for navigation time, we want to ensure that the time is baselined to the navigationStart and the timing is always increasing and never negative. If you use the system clock, instead of your own internal clock, the system clock will always be monotonically increasing and will be aligned with
20:40:57 <Jatinder> ...clock.
20:41:20 <Jatinder> James: Oh, that makes sense. I thought you were referring to the clock on the Taskbar.
20:41:26 <Jatinder> Jason: No, referring to the system clock.
20:41:31 <Jatinder> James: That sounds reasonable.
20:41:48 <Jatinder> Karen: The system clock is the system tick count.
20:42:11 <Jatinder> Jason: Does the wording sound better with this context?
20:42:31 <Jatinder> James: This makes more sense to me in this context. 
20:42:57 <Jatinder> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0072.html
20:43:20 <getify> getify has joined #webperf
20:43:36 <Jatinder> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2011Apr/0072.html
20:46:39 <Jatinder> Let's discuss the wording further on the mailing list, considering we all believe in principal with the text and making this a normative statement.
20:46:55 <Jatinder> move to next agenda
20:46:55 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Feedback and discussion on Resource Timing Processing Model." taken up [from Jatinder]
20:47:42 <Jatinder> move to next agenda
20:47:42 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Jatinder
20:47:57 <Jatinder> a.	http://www.w3.org/mid/BANLkTinAF%252Bo9XigG14=uo2Hz-W0dHhKPCw@mail.gmail.com;list=public-web-perf 
20:59:59 <heycam> Zakim, code?
20:59:59 <Zakim> sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is
21:00:36 <Jatinder> Topic: Discussing the issue of including ID and Type
21:00:50 <Jatinder> Jason: ID and Type will more uniquely identify dynamically fetched resources.
21:01:00 <Jatinder> ...-	Minimum information you need is the timing data and identifying the resource that is associated with the timing.
21:01:20 <heycam> heycam has changed the topic to: Web Performance WG - conference code is 97373# (WPERF#) (heycam)
21:01:25 <Jatinder> Tony: Worried about having all this additional data just for IDs.
21:01:26 <jamesr> jamesr has joined #webperf
21:01:36 <heycam> Zakim, this is wperf
21:01:36 <Zakim> ok, heycam; that matches RWC_web-per(WPWG)4:00PM
21:01:52 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:01:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see tomayac, [Microsoft], +1.650.214.aaaa, ??P5, +1.512.851.aabb, ??P12
21:02:37 <Zakim> -??P5
21:02:39 <Zakim> -tomayac
21:02:41 <Zakim> - +1.650.214.aaaa
21:03:14 <heycam> Zakim, mute ??P12
21:03:14 <Zakim> ??P12 should now be muted
21:03:25 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:03:25 <heycam> Zakim, unmute ??P12
21:03:26 <Zakim> ??P12 should no longer be muted
21:03:28 <heycam> Zakim, ??p12 is me
21:03:28 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:03:55 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aacc
21:04:10 <jamesr> Zakim, who is on the clal?
21:04:10 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jamesr.
21:04:15 <jamesr> Zakim: who is on the call?
21:04:33 <jamesr> heycam: is there a README for zakim?
21:04:42 <heycam> there is somewhere...
21:04:47 <heycam> probably he just wants a comma instead of colon
21:04:56 <jamesr> why does the web client tab-complete with a colon, then?
21:05:00 <jamesr> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.512.851.aabb, heycam, +1.650.253.aacc
21:05:02 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
21:05:12 <jamesr> hmm, pretty sure the last guy is me
21:05:15 <heycam> jamesr, that's a good question :)
21:06:12 <jamesr> Zakim, +1.650.253.aacc is me
21:06:12 <Zakim> +jamesr; got it
21:06:17 <jamesr> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:06:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.512.851.aabb, heycam, jamesr
21:06:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:07:46 <Jatinder> agenda+ Schedule discussions for Page Visibility, Efficient Script Yielding and Display Paint Notifications.
21:11:33 <Jatinder> move to next agenda
21:11:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Feedback and discussion on updates to Resource Timing and User Timing" taken up [from Jatinder]
21:11:46 <Jatinder> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/PageVisibility/Overview.html 
21:26:43 <Jatinder> Topic: Discussing Page Visibility spec
21:28:22 <Jatinder> Kyle: Privacy concerns. What if a page annoys the user if they are no longer viewing the page.
21:28:37 <Jatinder> ...the event may make this easier.
21:29:39 <Christian> Christian has joined #webperf
21:32:35 <Jatinder> Jason: Popups are something the user agent already suppress.
21:33:00 <Jatinder> Jatinder: A user agent may consider providing an option to not show the page visibility state.
21:34:23 <Jatinder> Jatinder: Let's aim to have all three specs available on the http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ site in the next few days, so we can begin discussing these specs on the mailing list. This will give everyone some time to form an opinion. 
21:36:44 <Jatinder> ...We can discuss particular contentious issues on the call.
21:37:29 <Jatinder> Cameron: As per my mailing list question, are there any constraints on the spec name based on the new charter?
21:38:13 <Jatinder> Jason: No restrictions. The charter is worded to be vague enough.
21:39:02 <heycam> trackbot, url?
21:39:02 <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, url?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
21:39:16 <Zakim> -jamesr
21:39:17 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:39:17 <Zakim> -heycam
21:39:19 <Zakim> - +1.512.851.aabb
21:39:19 <Zakim> RWC_web-per(WPWG)4:00PM has ended
21:39:21 <Zakim> Attendees were tomayac, [Microsoft], +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.512.851.aabb, heycam, jamesr
21:39:48 <heycam> trackbot, status
21:40:08 <heycam> are we using tracker for issue tracking? (is what I'm trying to determine by asking trackbot. :))
21:54:21 <Jatinder> Cameron: As per my mailing list question, are there any constraints on the spec name based on the new charter?
21:54:45 <Jatinder> Jason: No restrictions. 
21:55:02 <Jatinder> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
21:55:13 <Jatinder> rrsagent, make log public
21:55:22 <Jatinder> rrsagent, create minutes
21:55:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-webperf-minutes.html Jatinder
22:12:28 <Jatinder> part rrsagent
22:12:32 <Jatinder> rrsagent, part
22:12:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items