as respec maps appropriately. 15:21:43 One time pain to convert 15:21:44 and converting html4 to html5 seems easier than html4 to wiki... 15:22:02 action-40? 15:22:02 ACTION-40 -- Mischa Tuffield to look into soton video conf facilities -- due 2011-04-27 -- OPEN 15:22:02 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/40 15:22:03 yup, southampton are in theory happy 15:22:07 it is up to us 15:22:17 close action-40 15:22:17 ACTION-40 Look into soton video conf facilities closed 15:22:26 topic: F2F2 15:23:59 Guus: Not much change from last week in poll results 15:24:10 q+ 15:24:23 ... there 4 F2F for the WG 15:24:41 ... split to be fair to all 15:25:02 ... west, east, EU, ? 15:25:12 ... Ivan can make west coast dates only 15:25:40 ivan: sandro can make the East coast dates 15:26:06 ... linked to RDB2RDF , RDF web apps 15:26:16 ... RDB2RDF - TPAC ?? 15:26:31 ... RDF web apps - many invited experts so cost issus 15:27:02 Guus: if video link, east coast location is better 15:27:12 q+ 15:27:12 can we change the date for the East coast? 15:27:43 I like the idea of east coast + video link 15:27:57 southampton can host it 15:28:01 ... weak case for TPAC currently, go East Coast, aim to go West coast for future US F2F 15:28:23 mischat, +1 15:28:25 mmm, it's 1 person, not 2 or 3 15:28:29 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 15:28:37 mischat, +1 here too 15:29:12 can we swap East coast date with West coast date? 15:29:19 yes 15:29:21 zakim, who is making noise ? 15:29:32 mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: danbri (96%), Sandro (4%) 15:29:34 No, zwu2 15:29:41 yes 15:29:52 Oracle has a conference that week 15:30:09 Boston prefered to Murray Hill as well 15:30:10 Results are at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/RDFWGFTF2/results 15:30:59 Ivan: budget issues - EU link would help 15:32:12 UK satellite would work well for me and yvesr 15:33:00 it would be easier for me as well 15:33:35 (much discussion about alternative date possibilities) 15:34:35 Proposed: F2F2 US/East Oct 11-12 15:34:53 Oct 11-12 is fine for me 15:34:58 That week (Canadian Thanksgiving) is not ideal for me. 15:35:08 9 days before ISWC 15:36:45 Canadian Thanksgiving 15:37:03 new poll - oct 4-5 vs oct 12-13, 15:37:11 Guus: new poll: two choices: in oct, East Coast 15:37:22 video conf facilities? 15:37:35 i wonder if a video link up is going to be on the table 15:37:38 ? 15:37:48 Cambridge has lots of hotels. 15:39:03 Do we know the numbers at each end roughly? 15:39:29 pfps: Our best room holds 110 - too big for practical purposes? 15:39:46 sandro: who would go where? 15:39:54 Guus: will add to poll 15:39:59 guus, ask another question about who would be where, if we do a video link. 15:40:37 action: guus to set up poll about which site you'd use if we have a video link, pref murray hill vs cambridge/mit, and oct 4-5 vs oct-12-13. 15:40:38 Created ACTION-41 - Set up poll about which site you'd use if we have a video link, pref murray hill vs cambridge/mit, and oct 4-5 vs oct-12-13. [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-05-04]. 15:41:10 Topic: list discussion 15:41:33 Guus: pls us WG list for WG work mainly - general discussions to general lists 15:42:23 topic: Reconcile various forms of string literals 15:42:27 Issue-12? 15:42:27 ISSUE-12 -- Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) -- open 15:42:27 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12 15:43:09 ivan: I raised the issue to make sure it got done. 15:43:10 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 15:43:22 ... pfps suggests this is a non-issue 15:44:13 pfps: It it not a non-issue - semantics says xsd:string are same as plain literals no lang tag 15:44:28 s/it it/it is/ 15:44:32 +q 15:44:33 -OlivierCorby 15:44:48 zakim, unmute 15:44:48 I don't understand 'unmute', AZ 15:44:51 ivan: F2F1 was that simple literals preferred 15:44:53 Danbri has joined #rdf-wg 15:44:56 ... some push back 15:45:05 zakime, unmute AZ 15:45:06 zakim, unmute me 15:45:06 AZ should no longer be muted 15:45:52 ... status is that F2F resolution has some -1's 15:45:57 Guus: where are we? 15:46:48 AZ: my prob with resolution is "archaic" means "do not use" but I want to use in rdfs:range. 15:47:04 "Recommend that publishers use plain literals instead of xs:string typed literals and tell systems to silently convert xs:string literals to plain literals without language tag." 15:47:10 ... I think that archaic suggest don't do that. 15:47:18 ... (suggests text) 15:47:32 q+ 15:47:35 Yes, agreed -- the intention was this -- it wasn't about disallowing xs:string as a range constraint 15:47:37 q- 15:47:41 ack ivan 15:47:53 ack AZ 15:48:23 LeeF: Want range thing and SPARQL datatype is already xsd:string 15:48:28 q+ 15:48:32 ack LeeF 15:48:37 ... goal of align is desirable 15:48:46 lee: I want the sparql DATATYPE function to return xs:string on these things, but it might already be. 15:49:10 ack ivan 15:49:37 rdf:PlainLiteral is bigger than xsd:string 15:49:42 ivan: rdf:PlainLiteral usable? 15:49:53 sandro: No - includes language tage 15:50:06 "Recommend that publishers use plain literals instead of xs:string typed literals and tell systems to silently convert xs:string literals to plain literals without language tag." 15:50:13 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#func-datatype -- it is the case that datatype("foo") = xsd:string 15:50:27 AZ, +1 15:50:34 q+ 15:50:47 ack LeeF 15:50:53 Guus: please propose on the list 15:51:08 LeeF: need to check experts in CSI 15:51:19 q+ to ask ask a clarification 15:51:25 Guus: One week on the list, bring to WG next week. 15:51:51 action: AZ Propose text for resolution on archaic xsd:strings 15:51:51 Created ACTION-42 - Propose text for resolution on archaic xsd:strings [on Antoine Zimmermann - due 2011-05-04]. 15:52:12 q- 15:52:13 zakim, mute me 15:52:13 AZ should now be muted 15:52:19 issue-34? 15:52:19 ISSUE-34 -- Do we need to add syntactic sugar to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? -- open 15:52:19 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/34 15:52:30 topic: syntactic sugar to turtle 15:52:52 q? 15:53:25 Q+ to ask if sparql 1.1 paths are useful assertionally? 15:53:36 Guus: Please phrase as proposal then bring to TC next week 15:53:47 ack danbri 15:53:47 Danbri, you wanted to ask if sparql 1.1 paths are useful assertionally? 15:53:51 danbri: SPARQL paths? 15:54:04 cygri has joined #rdf-wg 15:54:05 q+ 15:54:07 Danbri, I mentioned that at the f2f, consensus was to not do it i think 15:54:12 propose: "to not add any features to Turtle over what is in the submission" 15:54:26 Danbri, although i see the point and why it could be useful 15:54:34 steveH: paths only in SPARQL where clause 15:54:45 ack AndyS 15:54:58 yep 15:55:05 and what about '*' paths :-/ 15:55:06 -AxelPolleres 15:55:08 q+ 15:55:17 q- 15:55:17 AndyS: if you wanted to add the paths to turtle, there would be issues re: bnodes 15:55:18 AndyS: need to decide what intermediate nodes are 15:55:22 q- 15:55:24 cygri_ has joined #rdf-wg 15:55:32 Guus: any more input? 15:55:37 second it 15:55:55 any objections to the proposal 15:56:00 ? 15:56:10 -BBC 15:56:21 RESOLVED "to not add any features to Turtle over what is in the submission" 15:56:37 I would be interested to hear more re paths, but maybe off wg list for now 15:56:54 RESOLVED: Close issue-12 without adding any features (syntactic sugar) to Turtle over what is in the submission 15:57:15 topic: Turtle and SPARQL-WG LC timing 15:57:17 +mhausenblas 15:57:27 zakim, mhausenblas is me 15:57:27 +cygri_; got it 15:57:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0470.html 15:57:59 -[IPcaller] 15:58:14 LeeF: SPARQL-WG has decided to make 18. change inc fix tests 15:58:46 ... so now is the Turtle features going to change (see email for diffs) 15:59:17 See: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Diff_SPARQL_Turtle 15:59:45 sandro: could put "at risk" so end of LC is latest to resolve 16:00:08 q+ 16:00:10 LeeF: OK but not favorite - many items - confusing 16:01:07 +??P49 16:01:16 Zakim, ??P49 is BBC 16:01:21 +BBC; got it 16:01:27 Zakim, BBC has yvesr, NickH 16:01:34 +yvesr, NickH; got it 16:01:34 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:43 AndyS: Of the difference on the wiki page I did, probably the biggest is freestanding bnode property lists 16:01:45 Guus: what are the main issues this wg will have in terms of syncing with turtle 16:01:56 q? 16:02:11 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Diff_SPARQL_Turtle#bNode_property_lists 16:02:11 sandro: how to move forward on this, Andy? 16:02:38 AndyS: Two options -- publish turtle exactly matching sparql, or adopt principle of aligning them 16:03:12 Prefer the 2nd to the first? 16:03:16 STRAWPOLL: We agree in principle to align TURTLE and SPARQL 16:03:17 +1 to consistency 16:03:23 +1 16:03:26 guus: no one speaking against it 16:03:26 +1 16:03:32 +1 16:03:32 +1 16:03:33 +1 16:03:34 +1 16:03:37 +1 16:03:38 +1 16:03:39 If we do leave wiggle room between the specs, we can also include notes on the subtle differences in our spec 16:03:39 +1 16:03:41 +1 16:03:49 +1 16:03:50 +1 to consistency, but still requires case-by-case consideration 16:03:50 +1 16:04:14 +1 16:04:18 +1 16:04:20 AndyS: I'm not sure of the state of current implementations on these corner cases. 16:04:29 I'd like that the default state be "align Turtle to SPARQL", and that there have to be a strong technical compelling case in order to go in the other direction 16:04:56 AndyS: I'd be happy to remove free-standing lists from SPARQL 16:05:36 guus: So, there might be some detailed features at risk, but they are pretty well aligned so far 16:05:52 guus: So, do you want us to put these on a priority list? 16:06:02 AndyS: I'd rather NOT go through them feature-by-feature. 16:06:26 +1 to LeeF "compelling" case needed 16:06:48 +1 to needing a compelling case to diviate 16:06:58 -Peter_Patel-Schneider 16:06:59 sandro: Is the proposal that SPARQL last call (next week) is last call for any changes to TURTLE??? 16:07:14 Zakim, who is on the call 16:07:14 I don't understand 'who is on the call', Danbri 16:07:20 +Peter_Patel-Schneider 16:07:40 AndyS: That would be nice, but that's not it. 16:07:55 guus: The spirit is to align them 16:08:34 ivan: I understand the freestanding list, the bnode brackets, I have no problem deciding now that TURTLE should adopt those and move on. I fail to grasp the backslash-u issue. 16:08:39 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:08:47 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Diff_SPARQL_Turtle#Escape_Processing 16:09:43 AndyS: SPARQL and TURTLE have an escape mechanism that works slightly differently, in addition Eric is proposing adding them to prefix names. 16:09:45 q+ 16:09:52 q- 16:10:36 guus: Is this the only item where you (Andy) and Eric disagree? If so, it seems like a good thing to mark At Risk. 16:11:16 AndyS: Are you talking about the difference in escape processing, or about eric's SPARQL feature request. 16:11:25 q? 16:11:28 q+ 16:11:46 -FabGandon 16:11:50 ivan: is it just these three things? 16:11:57 ack cygri 16:12:04 AndyS: I think so, no one else has brought anything else up 16:12:57 cygri: I have concerns about this unicode escape issue -- this needs more discussion. I think the current sparql approach isnt optimal for turtle. I don't have a strong opinion about whether this means SPARQL should change, or the two should deviate on this. 16:13:27 ... I also agree all the other issues, TURTLE should follow SPARQL, except maybe on final-dot at end of document. 16:13:39 Ivan/sandro, can you investigate shared filespace issue for the wg? Mercurial etc...? I'd like to close my rdfs issue... by opening an editors draft 16:13:47 cygri: So unicode escape is the one place there might still be a need for SPARQL to change. 16:14:06 Danbri, we can get mercurial space, yes. 16:14:22 Please :) 16:14:26 guus: So, Lee, it sounds like you should mark the unicode stuff at risk. 16:14:42 q? 16:14:44 q- 16:14:48 yvesr - currently yes 16:14:56 yvesr - currently correct 16:15:00 q+ 16:15:06 there is a wiki page 16:15:09 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:15:12 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Skolemization 16:15:32 topic: skolemization meta-discussion 16:16:01 Guus: next two weeks - be clear about options 16:16:07 http://www.w3.org/mid/0B4851C8-3017-4295-9F95-38347A4BF0D1@cyganiak.de 16:16:09 ... then we can get to resolution 16:16:15 zakim, drop me 16:16:15 Ivan is being disconnected 16:16:15 adjourned 16:16:16 -Ivan 16:16:16 -Peter_Patel-Schneider 16:16:17 -AlexHall 16:16:17 -cygri_ 16:16:18 -David_Wood 16:16:18 -SteveH_ 16:16:18 bye 16:16:19 -danbri 16:16:21 -gavinc 16:16:21 AlexHall has left #rdf-wg 16:16:24 -MacTed 16:16:24 bye 16:16:25 -Sandro 16:16:27 bye 16:16:28 -ww 16:16:29 -BBC 16:16:32 -mischat 16:16:32 thanks, Guus 16:16:34 -zwu2 16:16:35 -pchampin 16:16:37 -Scott 16:16:39 -LeeF 16:16:42 -AndyS 16:16:43 -mbrunati 16:16:45 -AZ 16:18:22 -??P46 16:20:01 AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 16:24:07 pchampin has left #rdf-wg 16:24:16 -tomayac 16:24:17 SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 16:24:19 Attendees were +1.760.705.aaaa, Scott, FabGandon, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AZ, danbri, mischat, [IPcaller], OlivierCorby, Ivan, mbrunati, gavinc, tomayac, AlexHall, AndyS, zwu2, ww, 16:24:22 ... yvesr, NickH, David_Wood, Sandro, +1.760.705.aabb, pchampin, AxelPolleres, SteveH_, LeeF, MacTed, cygri_ 16:25:41 tomayac has joined #rdf-wg 16:55:51 FabGandon has left #rdf-wg 17:25:49 cygri has joined #rdf-wg 17:45:26 mischat has joined #rdf-wg 18:02:39 SteveH has joined #rdf-wg 18:02:50 SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg 18:43:17 Zakim has left #rdf-wg 20:26:06 danbri has joined #rdf-wg