15:38:22 RRSAgent has joined #css 15:38:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-css-irc 15:38:27 Zakim, this will be Style 15:38:27 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 22 minutes 15:38:32 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:43:39 davve has left #css 15:46:12 arno has joined #css 15:49:35 salut arno 15:50:36 stearns has joined #css 15:56:16 Martijnc has joined #css 15:57:08 oyvind has joined #css 15:57:43 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 15:57:51 +plinss 15:58:01 +??P20 15:58:10 Zakim, ??P20 is me 15:58:10 +glazou; got it 15:59:55 + +1.415.832.aaaa 16:00:08 bradk has joined #css 16:00:27 +stearns 16:00:51 vhardy has joined #css 16:00:59 Zakim, aaaa is vhardy 16:01:00 +vhardy; got it 16:01:12 mihara has joined #css 16:01:33 +bradk 16:01:38 +[Microsoft] 16:01:40 zakim, microsoft has me 16:01:52 +arronei_; got it 16:01:56 johnjan has joined #css 16:01:58 -bradk 16:02:05 +??P6 16:02:09 zakim, ??p6 is me 16:02:22 zakim, microsoft has johnjan 16:02:29 dbaron has joined #css 16:02:31 +[Microsoft.a] 16:02:43 +kojiishi; got it 16:02:49 + +1.415.920.aabb 16:02:55 +johnjan; got it 16:03:05 +bradk 16:03:07 +David_Baron 16:03:19 danielweck has joined #css 16:04:12 +??P36 16:04:26 -bradk 16:04:31 ChrisL has joined #css 16:04:59 Zakim, ??P36 has me 16:04:59 +danielweck; got it 16:05:09 Zakim, who is noisy? 16:05:21 +ChrisL 16:05:22 glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: vhardy (20%), ??P36 (17%) 16:05:43 member:Zakim, who is noisy? 16:06:18 +bradk 16:06:22 smfr has joined #css 16:06:41 Zakim, mute ??P36 16:06:41 ??P36 should now be muted 16:06:54 Zakim, ??P36 is danielweck 16:06:54 +danielweck; got it 16:06:55 thanks ! 16:06:55 +smfr 16:07:07 arno1 has joined #css 16:07:08 danielweck: np, we had a lot of noise and echo coming from your phone 16:07:19 crash.... 16:07:20 :) 16:07:23 brb 16:07:35 +SteveZ 16:07:47 +[Microsoft.aa] 16:08:01 szilles has joined #css 16:08:09 +[Sophia] 16:08:11 +howcome 16:08:17 Zakim, who is noisy? 16:08:22 zakim, mute howcome 16:08:22 howcome should now be muted 16:08:25 Cathy has joined #css 16:08:28 dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Sophia] (39%), glazou (48%) 16:08:33 howcome has joined #css 16:08:34 zakim, unmute howcome 16:08:34 howcome should no longer be muted 16:08:39 Zakim, mute Bert 16:08:39 Bert should now be muted 16:08:43 wow 16:08:47 I just lost one ear 16:08:51 +[Apple] 16:08:56 Zakim, Apple has me 16:08:56 +hober; got it 16:09:04 ...I am retarded. Be there for a sec. 16:09:08 s/for/in/ 16:09:48 sylvaing has joined #css 16:09:54 ScribeNick: fantasai 16:10:19 Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing 16:10:19 +sylvaing; got it 16:10:24 plinss: Reminder that meeting starts at 9am, not 9:10. Please call in before 9am so things move quicker. 16:10:40 plinss: Last week we talked about Namespaces. Daniel, you were going to i18n? 16:10:41 +??P44 16:10:50 Zakim, ??P44 has me 16:10:50 +danielweck; got it 16:10:54 glazou: Did not do that yet, will do that today. 16:11:18 Topic: Charter 16:11:21 +TabAtkins_ 16:11:33 ChrisL: Incorporated most feedback so far. 16:11:43 ChrisL: Would like to alphabetize them within sections. 16:11:46 TabAtkins_ has joined #css 16:12:00 ChrisL: Going through from dbaron's comments from April 19th 16:12:02 Zakim, ??P44 is me 16:12:02 +danielweck; got it 16:12:24 ChrisL: Did have a question, since modules no longer say CSS3 Blah, wasn't sure how to word CSS4 UI 16:13:15 CSS UI, Level 3 16:13:18 CSS UI, Level 4 16:13:30 can we get here on IRC a URL to the last visible version of the charter with those edits? 16:13:53 ChrisL: Could put it in the charter as CSS UI, then both are in scope 16:14:09 ChrisL: Other question about fullscreen. Some suggest part of UI, some part of separate module 16:14:46 http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter.html 16:15:04 Did we agree to create UI level 4 already? I'm not sure I want a level 4. Rather a "Fullscreen level 3." 16:15:21 fantasai: CSS3 UI is aiming for PR soon, so can't put it in there. 16:15:47 fantasai: Tantek wants it as a separate module because it's very high priority for Mozilla 16:16:10 fantasai: Also it's not quite related to the other UI things 16:16:18 ChrisL: What about Selectors 4? 16:16:35 glazou, fantasai: low priority 16:16:44 ChrisL: Priority? 16:16:58 fantasai: depends on who writes tests how fast :) 16:17:04 ChrisL: ok, I'll list fullscreen as medium 16:17:30 plinss: I like the idea of leaving the levels out of the Charter 16:17:38 ChrisL: Allows us to split modules as we see fit. 16:17:45 +1 for leaving off level # 16:18:06 glazou: sounds good 16:18:28 Zakim, what's the code? 16:18:28 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders 16:18:53 plinss: Grid Positioning should be medium, not low 16:18:59 fantasai: Grid Layout, yo umean 16:19:20 + +44.131.208.aacc 16:19:20 some discussion of various modules with 'grid' in the title 16:19:20 -danielweck 16:19:26 :) 16:19:32 zakim, aacc is me 16:19:32 +gsnedders; got it 16:19:59 Zakim, who am I ? 16:19:59 I don't understand your question, danielweck. 16:20:01 plinss: Media Queries OM? 16:20:14 glazou: Only an editor's draft atm, but Mozilla and ? are starting to implement parts of it 16:20:30 Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:20:30 On the phone I see plinss, glazou, vhardy, stearns, [Microsoft], kojiishi, [Microsoft.a], +1.415.920.aabb, David_Baron, ChrisL, bradk, smfr, SteveZ, [Microsoft.aa], Bert (muted), 16:20:33 ChrisL: Should I add that as low priority 16:20:33 ... howcome, [Apple], danielweck.a, TabAtkins_, gsnedders 16:20:35 danielweck.a has danielweck 16:20:35 [Microsoft] has sylvaing 16:20:35 glazou: yes 16:20:37 [Apple] has hober 16:20:47 dbaron: This was part of the CSSOM View spec 16:20:54 ChrisL: CSSOM Views is there already 16:21:06 dbaron: Splitting it out probably isn't crazy, but it's a bit small for its own spec 16:21:26 ChrisL: Can do either. 16:21:51 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-window-interface 16:21:52 fantasai: If it's in CSSOM View, then splitting it out later might make sense 16:22:01 if needed 16:22:07 sylvaing: What's the priority of CSSOM View? 16:22:13 glazou: From WG perspective, or authors perspective? 16:22:20 glazou: From author's perspective it's pretty high 16:22:23 Actually, I think most of cssom-view is pretty stable. 16:22:28 sylvaing: And we've been talking it more and more. 16:22:29 cssom, not so much 16:22:37 arno has joined #css 16:22:59 fantasai: Problem is lack of an editor. Spec moves as fast as Anne has time. 16:23:01 we need a ghood, active editor for that spec 16:23:30 dbaron: Are we talking about CSSOM or CSSOM View 16:23:41 dbaron: I skimmed through CSSOM View, and most of it is pretty stable 16:23:56 dbaron: Most of it is old features implemented for a long time, and thne there are new features. 16:24:12 sylvaing: CSSOM View is separate document, very focused. Can move to CR and beyond on its own. 16:24:22 sylvaing: Thinking of CSSOM as a whole. 16:24:48 sylvaing: It's very important. 16:25:03 ... 16:25:18 TabAtkins_: I can help out. Can't take over the spec, but would like to help out. 16:25:29 ChrisL: You're also sliced pretty thin. 16:25:44 glazou: We need someone with a strong commitment to one spec and not doing many things outside that field. Both Anne and you do that. 16:25:49 glazou: It's not a bad thing, it's just factual. 16:26:03 sylvaing: Don't want to rathole discussion on charter on this point, but still concerned about CSSOM being at the end of the train. 16:26:05 We need more Tabs 16:26:30 sylvaing: It's a lot of work, including for implementers 16:27:08 fantasai: bottom line, need more spec-editing capacity 16:27:14 sylvaing: I'll see what I can do on our end 16:27:20 plinss: Any other charter comments? 16:27:20 #tab { expanded: super-expanded} ? 16:27:38 Ms2ger: thanks ! 16:28:12 SteveZ: medium priority has template layout but not grid layout, they're kindof combined now 16:28:24 Ms2ger: do you want to help me on that test suite ? 16:28:25 fantasai: Think we should list them both, then see what happens 16:28:41 glazou, http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css-style-attr/ 16:29:02 fantasai: coool 16:29:30 ChrisL: Last time we wanted to recharter, W3C told us we need to get CSS2.1 to PR first. 16:29:45 ChrisL: Now that's done, this could go to AC within a week or two, after CSSWG is done with it. 16:29:57 SteveZ: What does AC look at? 16:30:11 ChrisL: Mostly managerial issues. FTEs vs. work, etc. 16:30:25 ChrisL: For CSSWG, there were concerns about too much work, you'll never get it done, etc. 16:30:25 fantasai: http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css-style-attr/style-attr-braces-003.htm is probably wrong... 16:30:29 ChrisL: But that's less of an issue now. 16:30:52 glazou, no it's not; you have to match braces when parsing CSS. 16:31:03 Topic: Snapshots 16:31:07 plinss: fantasai posted some updates 16:31:15 fantasai: prose says "green on green bg"... 16:31:19 Cathy has joined #css 16:31:26 Still not sure of the relevance of more than one dated snapshot 16:31:26 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-2010/#testing 16:32:24 fantasai: last |color: red| in source should be |color: green| 16:32:27 fantasai: Just to update the spec so it's not WD, it's done 16:32:35 glazou: nope 16:32:43 glazou: that's invalid due to the braces 16:33:01 fantasai: then it's BLACK on green bg... 16:33:18 fantasai: prose is wrong or source is wrong 16:33:23 glazou, yeah, that needs fixing :) will fix 16:33:28 ah :-) 16:34:00 ChrisL: Why is it 2010 not 2011? 16:34:03 fantasai: First published in 2010 16:34:15 ChrisL: Will there be 2011? 16:34:19 fantasai: If we have anything to add, yes 16:34:28 plinss: Should publish as often as necessary, even if twice a year 16:34:34 fantasai doesn't disagree 16:34:52 fantasai: Back to 3.4 16:35:20 sylvaing: Where do we define experimental vs. non-experimental? 16:35:27 fantasai: hm... nowhere, need to do that 16:36:03 fantasai: Can steal definition in CR exit criteria 16:36:13 sylvaing: Should also make a case for *enough* test coverage, as determined by WG. 16:37:08 some discussion of how to wording this 16:37:34 plinss: s/they consider/they can demonstrate/ 16:37:46 +1 for "demonstrated" 16:38:15 demonstrated to the satisfaction of the WG 16:39:03 SteveZ: why would I do an experimental implementation 16:39:13 plinss: Implementation before CR is experimental 16:39:48 SteveZ: maybe reverse order of paragraphs 16:40:17 -danielweck.a 16:40:43 "The test cases used for the implementation report must be sufficient to demonstrate something to the satisfaction of the CSS WG" 16:40:43 +??P17 16:40:50 Zakim, ??P17 is me 16:40:50 +danielweck; got it 16:41:01 Zakim, mute danielweck 16:41:01 danielweck should now be muted 16:41:12 "and are subject to review by the CSSWG" 16:41:45 "The testcases used for the implementation report must be sufficient to demonstrate interoperability and are subject to review by the CSSWG" 16:42:32 plinss: Anything else on snapshot? Happy with it modulo prefix edits? 16:42:44 SteveZ: No, but I'll send out response to sylvain's comment 16:42:52 fantasai: moved to mailing list 16:42:58 Topic: writing modes 16:42:59 -bradk 16:43:02 plinss: anyone reviewed it? 16:43:59 Added http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#appendix-b-intrinsic-sizing 16:44:22 to have some definitions, but otherwise no changes since 3 weeks ago 16:44:51 let's not diverge please, Variables ! 16:45:03 howcome: The multicol things in there, is that related to the other proposal ? 16:46:13 fantasai: related, but not the same. 7.3.2 takes an element that is not multicol and turns it into a multicol element 16:46:40 +1 16:46:41 howcome: So you tell some content that is not multicol content to behave as a multicol element 16:46:53 plinss: You just want to publish WD, right? 16:47:10 plinss: Can we just resolve to publish that and take detailed discusison offline? Is there a reason not to publish? 16:47:17 SteveZ: If it's a WD, no, there is no reason not to publish. 16:47:23 plinss: No objections? 16:47:31 RESOLVED: Publish WD of CSS3 Writing Modes 16:47:36 Topic: Variables/Mixins/Constants 16:47:46 TabAtkins: Everybody knows what they are and what they do. 16:47:55 TabAtkins: I want to take editorship of one or two drafts and work on those officially. 16:48:05 fantasai: What else is on your list? 16:48:19 TabAtkins: Lists and Flexbox. Later this summer, position-layout, then variables and mixins 16:48:29 dbaron: Variables are CSS values, mixins are CSS declaration blocks 16:48:38 TabAtkins: Distinction isn't important in simplistic case 16:48:47 TabAtkins: We think it's needed to have parametrized mixins 16:49:00 TabAtkins: At that point they become distinct enough that you want different concepts 16:49:18 SteveZ: And variables still have all of their problems 16:49:23 TabAtkins: Depends on what you mean by problems. 16:49:29 TabAtkins: Variables I have are global in scope 16:49:48 TabAtkins: All various syntax issues, I believe I have reasonable answers to these. 16:50:04 TabAtkins: Discussion stalled at "want to write something out officially" 16:50:15 TabAtkins: We're working on this experimentally, but want to discuss working in WG 16:50:42 glazou: When hyatt and I proposed variables, there was a strong discussion of what do we really need. Do we ned variables, constants, mutable constants? 16:50:59 s/dbaron:/TabAtkins: dbaron,/ 16:51:00 TabAtkins: I believe what is useful ro authors is true variables, changing them via script 16:51:10 TabAtkins: Seems to open a lot of interesting applications 16:51:27 glazou: That was the original proposal, and members of the group objected to that. 16:51:44 glazou: I think it makes sense to have consensus on what we want to accomplish before we start working on it. 16:52:07 SteveZ: I agree sortof with what you're saying, but our discussion always sem to laps into details to have a discussion. 16:52:26 SteveZ: Might make more progress with a concrete proposal 16:52:34 glazou: That's what we did with our proposal 16:52:46 glazou: What I'm afraid of is Google going really really fast and implementing as soon as it is written 16:53:03 glazou: Same problem as with apple, they had to remove their implementation because of lack of agreement from the WG 16:53:47 glazou: I really want variables. But I don't want to end up in a vicious circle. 16:53:53 TabAtkins: How do I make progress? 16:54:03 fantasai: Write a requirements document. 16:54:29 fantasai: Say "we need script-mutable variables and this is why and here are the use cases and here is why the other ways of addressing this are insufficient" 16:55:00 fantasai: And say "we need mixins and this is why and here are the use cases we need to solve and here is why the other ways of addressing similar concepts is insufficient" 16:55:25 some discussion on why we should address this issue at all 16:55:33 howcome: we already have JavaScript 16:55:38 TabAtkins: That's not an actual argument 16:56:10 TabAtkins: This is not making CSS a programming language. This is taking the massive repetition in a style sheet and reducing it 16:56:24 TabAtkins: It's taking a color and naming it so you can change it later 16:56:40 ChrisL: You can do that with search and replace only if you only use the color for one thing 16:56:54 howcome: I encourage everyone to read Bert's essay 16:57:02 TabAtkins: I encourage everyone to read ???'s rebuttal to that essay 16:57:17 sylvaing talks about six-or seven style sheets and managing them being painful 16:57:33 s/replace only/replace, but only/ 16:57:37 lots of argument 16:58:14 s/???'s/Alex Russell's/ 16:58:25 sylvaing: If something's in JQuery, it should be interesting for us 16:58:44 howcome: This isn't going to be useful in the near term. 16:58:49 howcome: It will take many years 16:58:58 glazou: Variables was user feedback number one from 1998 16:59:14 -ChrisL 16:59:18 sylvaing: Nevermind timeline, it may be easy to do in JavaScript you have an API that makes it easy to deal with. 16:59:22 sylvaing: We won't have that for years. 16:59:41 sylvaing: We don't have APIs that make it easy to navigate style rules and change colors 16:59:53 sylvaing: Don't want to parse CSS in JavaScript 17:00:29 (Can't we create a Web Macro Language WG, to create something that works for also for HTML, SVG, scripts, etc.?) 17:01:05 I think most of the use cases presented in the discussion didn't require variables as distinguished from constants. 17:01:35 dbaron, true. my own need is mostly constants 17:01:51 My concern is that people will use variables when they only need constants. 17:02:02 variables are heavyweight, they require a lot of maintenance in the OM 17:02:14 arno1 has joined #css 17:02:30 I don't want people to be using variables when they don't need script interactions 17:03:22 dbaron: I think we need the stuff that is interchanged across the web to be simpler, not complicated 17:03:49 dbaron: Because that's the stuff that needs to be reimplemented when you create a new layout engine 17:03:59 TabAtkins: Yes, we shouldn't throw tons of complexity at the client. 17:04:05 TabAtkins: but I think this is important enough 17:04:12 dbaron: I thinks some of it is and some of it isn't 17:05:20 ... 17:05:26 strongly agrees this should be carefully scoped. Start very simple. 17:05:47 +1 17:05:53 -[Microsoft.a] 17:09:37 fantasai is not minuting this 17:10:35 Someone suggests going over this at the F2F 17:10:35 -danielweck 17:10:41 Daniel probably wants later in the day Japan time 17:10:41 TabAtkins: see /query 17:10:48 plinss: So Tab, you'll produce some requirements documents and this heated debate will continue another time 17:10:49 -smfr 17:10:50 -glazou 17:10:51 -[Microsoft] 17:10:51 -howcome 17:10:52 -gsnedders 17:10:52 -[Microsoft.aa] 17:10:52 -SteveZ 17:10:53 -vhardy 17:10:55 -TabAtkins_ 17:10:57 -stearns 17:10:59 -kojiishi 17:11:00 (B.t.w, results of 1998 survey were (1) transparency, (2) columns, (3) leaders. Symbolic constants was 16th, out of 67.) 17:11:01 -plinss 17:11:03 TabAtkins_: ping 17:11:03 -[Apple] 17:11:06 -David_Baron 17:11:09 - +1.415.920.aabb 17:11:11 -Bert 17:11:13 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 17:11:15 Attendees were plinss, glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, stearns, vhardy, bradk, arronei_, [Microsoft], kojiishi, +1.415.920.aabb, johnjan, David_Baron, danielweck, ChrisL, smfr, SteveZ, 17:11:18 ... howcome, Bert, hober, sylvaing, TabAtkins_, +44.131.208.aacc, gsnedders 17:11:35 TabAtkins, TabAtkins_ : still here ? 17:11:58 9am-5pm Japan is 2am-10am France 17:12:30 dbaron: yeah, end of day in japan better for me 17:13:15 sigh 17:13:51 funktion has joined #css 17:14:59 glazou: you can still come :) 17:15:42 Meeting start time is: 17:15:44 Wed 2011-06-01 17:00 PDT (California, USA) 17:15:44 Wed 2011-06-01 20:00 EDT (New York, USA) 17:15:44 Thu 2011-06-02 02:00 CEST (France) 17:15:44 Thu 2011-06-02 09:00 JST (Japan) 17:15:45 750ish euros to Japan doesn't seem too bad 17:15:47 Meeting end time is: 17:15:54 Thu 2011-06-02 01:00 PDT (California, USA) 17:15:54 Thu 2011-06-02 04:00 EDT (New York, USA) 17:15:54 Thu 2011-06-02 10:00 CEST (France) 17:15:54 Thu 2011-06-02 17:00 JST (Japan) 17:16:04 (first day) 17:16:21 assuming we do 9-5, that is 17:18:12 glazou has joined #css 17:18:20 TabAtkins: I'm here 17:18:24 szilles has joined #css 17:18:42 glazou: kk 17:19:03 glazou, I'd be interested in writing tests, but I know barely anything about CSS syntax ;) 17:19:16 Ms2ger: oh ok :-) 17:19:20 nm then 17:19:36 TabAtkins: see /query 17:26:19 glazou: test fixed 17:26:55 thx 17:26:56 :) 17:27:26 eheh 17:28:17 I think the other series of tests that would be needed is CSS escapes and SGML escapes (mixed up nicely) 17:28:32 hmmm 17:28:45 and maybe tossing in a few control characters to see how they parse 17:28:57 other than that, I'm not coming up with anything else to test here, you? 17:29:35 had not time to check yet 17:30:02 Oh, \f, probably 17:30:30 fantasai: we may need to that at-rules are not honoured 17:30:34 test 17:30:50 ahhh 17:30:55 yes :) 17:31:14 Ms2ger: form feed? yes that's a good one 17:31:26 yep 17:32:39 tests for the style attr spec? 17:33:50 yes 17:33:57 do you have some to contribute ? 17:34:25 Oh, that is a space in CSS too 17:35:48 smfr has left #css 17:36:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0330.html 17:37:37 Oh, XML 17:39:31 dinner time here 17:39:33 bye people 17:49:02 dbaron has joined #css 18:09:27 karl has joined #CSS 18:14:58 Bert? 18:24:59 Bert: Can you set up css3-writing-modes for publication? 18:25:30 Bert: I sent a message to webreq... but they probably want it set up or something 18:26:41 arno has joined #css 18:31:59 arronei has joined #CSS 18:39:20 shepazu has joined #css 18:42:07 arronei: does data:text/html;charset=utf-8;base64,PHVsIHN0eWxlPSJsaXN0LXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6IGNqay1pZGVvZ3JhcGhpYzsgbWFyZ2luOiA1ZW0iPg0KICA8bGkgdmFsdWU9IjEwMDAwMSI%2BSXRlbSAxMDAwMDENCjwvdWw%2B give anything interesting in IE9? 18:43:17 Zakim has left #css 19:47:40 sylvaing has joined #css 20:06:00 OK, fantasai, I'll install css3-writing-modes. 20:19:56 Bert: Thanks! 20:25:57 Fantasai, the file seems to refer to diagrams/glyph-right.svg and diagrams/glyph-upright.svg 20:26:20 I don't see those in CVS. 20:30:08 Ms2ger has joined #css 20:30:35 Bert: Checked in 20:30:37 Bert: sorry 20:35:49 The internal style sheet also centers the W3C logo. :-) 20:36:22 I guess that style rule for IMG needs to be more specific, or needs an override. 20:37:10 hmmmm 20:37:51 I think I can fix that :) 20:39:25 Done 20:40:19 writing modes has so many awkwardly placed diagrams :/ 20:40:25 and I should be adding /more/ 20:45:07 There is a broken fragment, #isolate, on line 491. 20:48:54 Fantasai, any idea what #isolate should point to? 20:49:58 Bert: yeah. Fixed. 20:50:11 Bert: The problem was I didn't use in some of the value definition lists 20:54:45 One more error (the last one, it seems): the "previous version" is not correct. 20:55:01 Should be http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110201/ 20:59:12 Bert: fixed 20:59:21 Bert: Thanks for your review :) 21:01:00 TabAtkins: Wrt discussions on ranges, the principle that underlies the resolutions is that CSS might want to define a minimum range 21:01:04 TabAtkins: But not a maximum one 21:01:27 TabAtkins: in other words, we might require that z-index values between -10,000 and 10,000 be supported 21:01:39 We should only define exact ranges 21:01:42 TabAtkins: but won't require clipping to that range if an implementation is capable of supporting 10,000,000 21:02:37 TabAtkins: Similarly, we might require that 32 counters are required to be supported in the 'counter-increment' property, but allow for an implementation that supports 120 21:03:29 So, let's pull this back to the relevant discussion, which is limiting the range of the cjk-longhand styles. 21:03:47 I think that's a reasonable thing for the spec to do 21:04:21 I'm less convinced that implementations should be *required* to *not* support correct numbering beyond that range 21:05:54 I'm not going to spec more than the range that I require. If they do something beyond that range, it'll be based on their own research, and thus has a good chance of not being interoperable. 21:06:30 Plus, I need to be able to test fallback styles, which relies on lists rendering in a different way outside of their defined range. 21:07:23 shepazu has joined #css 21:08:57 TabAtkins: that's pretty easy to do 21:10:15 Explain? I don't see how I can test the rendering of, say, 100001, when it could be 一〇〇〇〇一 or [something undefined]. 21:12:55 write the test to require either 一〇〇〇〇一 or 十..零一 21:13:03 But the latter rendering is undefined. 21:15:06 We have multiple cases where exact behavior is undefined 21:15:11 but there is a preferred behavior 21:15:14 All of those are problems. 21:15:25 In such cases we write the test for the preferred behavior and mark it as an issue 21:15:29 Which I refuse to put in a spec that I edit. 21:16:20 You'll have to make sure you don't ever wind up editing CSS3 Text then :) 21:16:45 line breaking and justification are both very undefined 21:16:54 and that's not a fixable problem 21:17:10 I don't plan to. ^_^ 21:17:30 (But I think the lack of definition is a problem there.) 21:18:14 You haven't spent enough time dealing with the typesetting industry 21:18:29 So, is there a practical purpose for lists that are specifically cjk longhand with counter values >10k? 21:19:15 No idea. I'm just uncomfortable with requiring UAs to do something that's wrong when there's no really good reason to do that. 21:19:34 We know it's wrong. 21:19:39 We know the right answer. 21:20:00 It's not too complicated to implement, because we have two implementations. 21:20:10 I'm comfortable with the practical answer here of "nobody will ever care". 21:20:24 if nobody cares 21:20:30 (One impl is buggy.) 21:20:30 then why not allow two behaviors? 21:20:41 Because that's *not what you do when you're writing specs*. 21:20:52 (True. But that doesn't seem like a problem that's hard to fix.) 21:21:05 The point of a spec is to promote interop. 21:21:21 Putting in options that no one cares about does not accomplish that goal. 21:23:26 If later on you find out that someone cares, then what? 21:23:32 Then we change the spec. 21:24:17 If a simple system happens to address theoretical cases, great. But you don't make a system more complex unless you have concrete need to do so. 21:26:29 The "then we change the spec" bit is the part that concerns me 21:26:47 Why? Specs are easy to change. 21:27:12 I'm rather certain that changing this sort of thing won't break anyone, if we ever do so. 21:27:29 If it's a possibility, then you should at least note it in the spec. 21:27:29 (The certainty that it doesn't matter in the first place leads me to believe we won't break anyone.) 21:28:08 "A future level of this spec may define xyz counter styles beyond this range." 21:28:08 I plan to note that the longhand styles are defined over a much larger range, but I am defining it over a smaller range instead. 21:28:38 That way implementers know that the behavior may change in the future 21:28:58 and authors have a chance of knowing that too 21:29:35 If it removes your objections, I'm okay with making sure I phrase the note to that effect. 21:29:57 yeah, that works for me 21:30:10 although I still think you need to ask the WG for opinions from other people 21:30:15 I did, this morning. ^_^ 22:31:00 arno has joined #css 22:55:34 TabAtkins has joined #css 23:04:48 arno1 has joined #css 23:21:41 myakura has joined #css 23:43:00 boblet has joined #CSS