IRC log of css on 2011-04-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:38:22 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
15:38:22 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-css-irc
15:38:27 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:38:27 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:38:32 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:43:39 [davve]
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15:46:12 [arno]
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15:49:35 [glazou]
salut arno
15:50:36 [stearns]
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15:56:16 [Martijnc]
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15:57:43 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:51 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:58:01 [Zakim]
+??P20
15:58:10 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P20 is me
15:58:10 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:59:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
16:00:08 [bradk]
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16:00:27 [Zakim]
+stearns
16:00:51 [vhardy]
vhardy has joined #css
16:00:59 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is vhardy
16:01:00 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
16:01:12 [mihara]
mihara has joined #css
16:01:33 [Zakim]
+bradk
16:01:38 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:01:40 [arronei_]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:52 [Zakim]
+arronei_; got it
16:01:56 [johnjan]
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16:01:58 [Zakim]
-bradk
16:02:05 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:02:09 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p6 is me
16:02:22 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft has johnjan
16:02:29 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
16:02:31 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:02:43 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:02:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aabb
16:02:55 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
16:03:05 [Zakim]
+bradk
16:03:07 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
16:03:19 [danielweck]
danielweck has joined #css
16:04:12 [Zakim]
+??P36
16:04:26 [Zakim]
-bradk
16:04:31 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
16:04:59 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P36 has me
16:04:59 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:05:09 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:05:21 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:05:22 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: vhardy (20%), ??P36 (17%)
16:05:43 [glazou]
member:Zakim, who is noisy?
16:06:18 [Zakim]
+bradk
16:06:22 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:06:41 [glazou]
Zakim, mute ??P36
16:06:41 [Zakim]
??P36 should now be muted
16:06:54 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P36 is danielweck
16:06:54 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:06:55 [danielweck]
thanks !
16:06:55 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:07:07 [arno1]
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16:07:08 [glazou]
danielweck: np, we had a lot of noise and echo coming from your phone
16:07:19 [danielweck]
crash....
16:07:20 [danielweck]
:)
16:07:23 [danielweck]
brb
16:07:35 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:07:47 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:08:01 [szilles]
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16:08:09 [Zakim]
+[Sophia]
16:08:11 [Zakim]
+howcome
16:08:17 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:08:22 [ChrisL]
zakim, mute howcome
16:08:22 [Zakim]
howcome should now be muted
16:08:25 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #css
16:08:28 [Zakim]
dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Sophia] (39%), glazou (48%)
16:08:33 [howcome]
howcome has joined #css
16:08:34 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute howcome
16:08:34 [Zakim]
howcome should no longer be muted
16:08:39 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute Bert
16:08:39 [Zakim]
Bert should now be muted
16:08:43 [glazou]
wow
16:08:47 [glazou]
I just lost one ear
16:08:51 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:08:56 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has me
16:08:56 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:09:04 [TabAtkins]
...I am retarded. Be there for a sec.
16:09:08 [TabAtkins]
s/for/in/
16:09:48 [sylvaing]
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16:09:54 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:10:19 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:10:19 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:10:24 [fantasai]
plinss: Reminder that meeting starts at 9am, not 9:10. Please call in before 9am so things move quicker.
16:10:40 [fantasai]
plinss: Last week we talked about Namespaces. Daniel, you were going to i18n?
16:10:41 [Zakim]
+??P44
16:10:50 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P44 has me
16:10:50 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:10:54 [fantasai]
glazou: Did not do that yet, will do that today.
16:11:18 [fantasai]
Topic: Charter
16:11:21 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins_
16:11:33 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Incorporated most feedback so far.
16:11:43 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Would like to alphabetize them within sections.
16:11:46 [TabAtkins_]
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16:12:00 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Going through from dbaron's comments from April 19th
16:12:02 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P44 is me
16:12:02 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:12:24 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Did have a question, since modules no longer say CSS3 Blah, wasn't sure how to word CSS4 UI
16:13:15 [fantasai]
CSS UI, Level 3
16:13:18 [fantasai]
CSS UI, Level 4
16:13:30 [glazou]
can we get here on IRC a URL to the last visible version of the charter with those edits?
16:13:53 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Could put it in the charter as CSS UI, then both are in scope
16:14:09 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Other question about fullscreen. Some suggest part of UI, some part of separate module
16:14:46 [ChrisL]
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter.html
16:15:04 [Bert]
Did we agree to create UI level 4 already? I'm not sure I want a level 4. Rather a "Fullscreen level 3."
16:15:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: CSS3 UI is aiming for PR soon, so can't put it in there.
16:15:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: Tantek wants it as a separate module because it's very high priority for Mozilla
16:16:10 [fantasai]
fantasai: Also it's not quite related to the other UI things
16:16:18 [fantasai]
ChrisL: What about Selectors 4?
16:16:35 [fantasai]
glazou, fantasai: low priority
16:16:44 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Priority?
16:16:58 [fantasai]
fantasai: depends on who writes tests how fast :)
16:17:04 [fantasai]
ChrisL: ok, I'll list fullscreen as medium
16:17:30 [fantasai]
plinss: I like the idea of leaving the levels out of the Charter
16:17:38 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Allows us to split modules as we see fit.
16:17:45 [szilles]
+1 for leaving off level #
16:18:06 [fantasai]
glazou: sounds good
16:18:28 [gsnedders]
Zakim, what's the code?
16:18:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders
16:18:53 [fantasai]
plinss: Grid Positioning should be medium, not low
16:18:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: Grid Layout, yo umean
16:19:20 [Zakim]
+ +44.131.208.aacc
16:19:20 [fantasai]
some discussion of various modules with 'grid' in the title
16:19:20 [Zakim]
-danielweck
16:19:26 [fantasai]
:)
16:19:32 [gsnedders]
zakim, aacc is me
16:19:32 [Zakim]
+gsnedders; got it
16:19:59 [danielweck]
Zakim, who am I ?
16:19:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, danielweck.
16:20:01 [fantasai]
plinss: Media Queries OM?
16:20:14 [fantasai]
glazou: Only an editor's draft atm, but Mozilla and ? are starting to implement parts of it
16:20:30 [danielweck]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:20:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, glazou, vhardy, stearns, [Microsoft], kojiishi, [Microsoft.a], +1.415.920.aabb, David_Baron, ChrisL, bradk, smfr, SteveZ, [Microsoft.aa], Bert (muted),
16:20:33 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Should I add that as low priority
16:20:33 [Zakim]
... howcome, [Apple], danielweck.a, TabAtkins_, gsnedders
16:20:35 [Zakim]
danielweck.a has danielweck
16:20:35 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:20:35 [fantasai]
glazou: yes
16:20:37 [Zakim]
[Apple] has hober
16:20:47 [fantasai]
dbaron: This was part of the CSSOM View spec
16:20:54 [fantasai]
ChrisL: CSSOM Views is there already
16:21:06 [fantasai]
dbaron: Splitting it out probably isn't crazy, but it's a bit small for its own spec
16:21:26 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Can do either.
16:21:51 [dbaron]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-window-interface
16:21:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: If it's in CSSOM View, then splitting it out later might make sense
16:22:01 [fantasai]
if needed
16:22:07 [fantasai]
sylvaing: What's the priority of CSSOM View?
16:22:13 [fantasai]
glazou: From WG perspective, or authors perspective?
16:22:20 [fantasai]
glazou: From author's perspective it's pretty high
16:22:23 [dbaron]
Actually, I think most of cssom-view is pretty stable.
16:22:28 [fantasai]
sylvaing: And we've been talking it more and more.
16:22:29 [dbaron]
cssom, not so much
16:22:37 [arno]
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16:22:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: Problem is lack of an editor. Spec moves as fast as Anne has time.
16:23:01 [ChrisL]
we need a ghood, active editor for that spec
16:23:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: Are we talking about CSSOM or CSSOM View
16:23:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: I skimmed through CSSOM View, and most of it is pretty stable
16:23:56 [fantasai]
dbaron: Most of it is old features implemented for a long time, and thne there are new features.
16:24:12 [fantasai]
sylvaing: CSSOM View is separate document, very focused. Can move to CR and beyond on its own.
16:24:22 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Thinking of CSSOM as a whole.
16:24:48 [fantasai]
sylvaing: It's very important.
16:25:03 [fantasai]
...
16:25:18 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I can help out. Can't take over the spec, but would like to help out.
16:25:29 [fantasai]
ChrisL: You're also sliced pretty thin.
16:25:44 [fantasai]
glazou: We need someone with a strong commitment to one spec and not doing many things outside that field. Both Anne and you do that.
16:25:49 [fantasai]
glazou: It's not a bad thing, it's just factual.
16:26:03 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Don't want to rathole discussion on charter on this point, but still concerned about CSSOM being at the end of the train.
16:26:05 [ChrisL]
We need more Tabs
16:26:30 [fantasai]
sylvaing: It's a lot of work, including for implementers
16:27:08 [fantasai]
fantasai: bottom line, need more spec-editing capacity
16:27:14 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I'll see what I can do on our end
16:27:20 [fantasai]
plinss: Any other charter comments?
16:27:20 [glazou]
#tab { expanded: super-expanded} ?
16:27:38 [glazou]
Ms2ger: thanks !
16:28:12 [fantasai]
SteveZ: medium priority has template layout but not grid layout, they're kindof combined now
16:28:24 [glazou]
Ms2ger: do you want to help me on that test suite ?
16:28:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: Think we should list them both, then see what happens
16:28:41 [fantasai]
glazou, http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css-style-attr/
16:29:02 [glazou]
fantasai: coool
16:29:30 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Last time we wanted to recharter, W3C told us we need to get CSS2.1 to PR first.
16:29:45 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Now that's done, this could go to AC within a week or two, after CSSWG is done with it.
16:29:57 [fantasai]
SteveZ: What does AC look at?
16:30:11 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Mostly managerial issues. FTEs vs. work, etc.
16:30:25 [fantasai]
ChrisL: For CSSWG, there were concerns about too much work, you'll never get it done, etc.
16:30:25 [glazou]
fantasai: http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css-style-attr/style-attr-braces-003.htm is probably wrong...
16:30:29 [fantasai]
ChrisL: But that's less of an issue now.
16:30:52 [fantasai]
glazou, no it's not; you have to match braces when parsing CSS.
16:31:03 [fantasai]
Topic: Snapshots
16:31:07 [fantasai]
plinss: fantasai posted some updates
16:31:15 [glazou]
fantasai: prose says "green on green bg"...
16:31:19 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #css
16:31:26 [ChrisL]
Still not sure of the relevance of more than one dated snapshot
16:31:26 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-2010/#testing
16:32:24 [glazou]
fantasai: last |color: red| in source should be |color: green|
16:32:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: Just to update the spec so it's not WD, it's done
16:32:35 [fantasai]
glazou: nope
16:32:43 [fantasai]
glazou: that's invalid due to the braces
16:33:01 [glazou]
fantasai: then it's BLACK on green bg...
16:33:18 [glazou]
fantasai: prose is wrong or source is wrong
16:33:23 [fantasai]
glazou, yeah, that needs fixing :) will fix
16:33:28 [glazou]
ah :-)
16:34:00 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Why is it 2010 not 2011?
16:34:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: First published in 2010
16:34:15 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Will there be 2011?
16:34:19 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we have anything to add, yes
16:34:28 [fantasai]
plinss: Should publish as often as necessary, even if twice a year
16:34:34 [fantasai]
fantasai doesn't disagree
16:34:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: Back to 3.4
16:35:20 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Where do we define experimental vs. non-experimental?
16:35:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: hm... nowhere, need to do that
16:36:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: Can steal definition in CR exit criteria
16:36:13 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Should also make a case for *enough* test coverage, as determined by WG.
16:37:08 [fantasai]
some discussion of how to wording this
16:37:34 [fantasai]
plinss: s/they consider/they can demonstrate/
16:37:46 [szilles]
+1 for "demonstrated"
16:38:15 [bradk]
demonstrated to the satisfaction of the WG
16:39:03 [fantasai]
SteveZ: why would I do an experimental implementation
16:39:13 [fantasai]
plinss: Implementation before CR is experimental
16:39:48 [fantasai]
SteveZ: maybe reverse order of paragraphs
16:40:17 [Zakim]
-danielweck.a
16:40:43 [fantasai]
"The test cases used for the implementation report must be sufficient to demonstrate something to the satisfaction of the CSS WG"
16:40:43 [Zakim]
+??P17
16:40:50 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P17 is me
16:40:50 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:41:01 [glazou]
Zakim, mute danielweck
16:41:01 [Zakim]
danielweck should now be muted
16:41:12 [fantasai]
"and are subject to review by the CSSWG"
16:41:45 [fantasai]
"The testcases used for the implementation report must be sufficient to demonstrate interoperability and are subject to review by the CSSWG"
16:42:32 [fantasai]
plinss: Anything else on snapshot? Happy with it modulo prefix edits?
16:42:44 [fantasai]
SteveZ: No, but I'll send out response to sylvain's comment
16:42:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: moved to mailing list
16:42:58 [fantasai]
Topic: writing modes
16:42:59 [Zakim]
-bradk
16:43:02 [fantasai]
plinss: anyone reviewed it?
16:43:59 [fantasai]
Added http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#appendix-b-intrinsic-sizing
16:44:22 [fantasai]
to have some definitions, but otherwise no changes since 3 weeks ago
16:44:51 [glazou]
let's not diverge please, Variables !
16:45:03 [fantasai]
howcome: The multicol things in there, is that related to the other proposal ?
16:46:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: related, but not the same. 7.3.2 takes an element that is not multicol and turns it into a multicol element
16:46:40 [glazou]
+1
16:46:41 [fantasai]
howcome: So you tell some content that is not multicol content to behave as a multicol element
16:46:53 [fantasai]
plinss: You just want to publish WD, right?
16:47:10 [fantasai]
plinss: Can we just resolve to publish that and take detailed discusison offline? Is there a reason not to publish?
16:47:17 [fantasai]
SteveZ: If it's a WD, no, there is no reason not to publish.
16:47:23 [fantasai]
plinss: No objections?
16:47:31 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish WD of CSS3 Writing Modes
16:47:36 [fantasai]
Topic: Variables/Mixins/Constants
16:47:46 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Everybody knows what they are and what they do.
16:47:55 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I want to take editorship of one or two drafts and work on those officially.
16:48:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: What else is on your list?
16:48:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Lists and Flexbox. Later this summer, position-layout, then variables and mixins
16:48:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: Variables are CSS values, mixins are CSS declaration blocks
16:48:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Distinction isn't important in simplistic case
16:48:47 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We think it's needed to have parametrized mixins
16:49:00 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: At that point they become distinct enough that you want different concepts
16:49:18 [fantasai]
SteveZ: And variables still have all of their problems
16:49:23 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Depends on what you mean by problems.
16:49:29 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Variables I have are global in scope
16:49:48 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: All various syntax issues, I believe I have reasonable answers to these.
16:50:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Discussion stalled at "want to write something out officially"
16:50:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We're working on this experimentally, but want to discuss working in WG
16:50:42 [fantasai]
glazou: When hyatt and I proposed variables, there was a strong discussion of what do we really need. Do we ned variables, constants, mutable constants?
16:50:59 [dbaron]
s/dbaron:/TabAtkins: dbaron,/
16:51:00 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I believe what is useful ro authors is true variables, changing them via script
16:51:10 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Seems to open a lot of interesting applications
16:51:27 [fantasai]
glazou: That was the original proposal, and members of the group objected to that.
16:51:44 [fantasai]
glazou: I think it makes sense to have consensus on what we want to accomplish before we start working on it.
16:52:07 [fantasai]
SteveZ: I agree sortof with what you're saying, but our discussion always sem to laps into details to have a discussion.
16:52:26 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Might make more progress with a concrete proposal
16:52:34 [fantasai]
glazou: That's what we did with our proposal
16:52:46 [fantasai]
glazou: What I'm afraid of is Google going really really fast and implementing as soon as it is written
16:53:03 [fantasai]
glazou: Same problem as with apple, they had to remove their implementation because of lack of agreement from the WG
16:53:47 [fantasai]
glazou: I really want variables. But I don't want to end up in a vicious circle.
16:53:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: How do I make progress?
16:54:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: Write a requirements document.
16:54:29 [fantasai]
fantasai: Say "we need script-mutable variables and this is why and here are the use cases and here is why the other ways of addressing this are insufficient"
16:55:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: And say "we need mixins and this is why and here are the use cases we need to solve and here is why the other ways of addressing similar concepts is insufficient"
16:55:25 [fantasai]
some discussion on why we should address this issue at all
16:55:33 [fantasai]
howcome: we already have JavaScript
16:55:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: That's not an actual argument
16:56:10 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This is not making CSS a programming language. This is taking the massive repetition in a style sheet and reducing it
16:56:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: It's taking a color and naming it so you can change it later
16:56:40 [fantasai]
ChrisL: You can do that with search and replace only if you only use the color for one thing
16:56:54 [fantasai]
howcome: I encourage everyone to read Bert's essay
16:57:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I encourage everyone to read ???'s rebuttal to that essay
16:57:17 [fantasai]
sylvaing talks about six-or seven style sheets and managing them being painful
16:57:33 [ChrisL]
s/replace only/replace, but only/
16:57:37 [fantasai]
lots of argument
16:58:14 [dbaron]
s/???'s/Alex Russell's/
16:58:25 [fantasai]
sylvaing: If something's in JQuery, it should be interesting for us
16:58:44 [fantasai]
howcome: This isn't going to be useful in the near term.
16:58:49 [fantasai]
howcome: It will take many years
16:58:58 [fantasai]
glazou: Variables was user feedback number one from 1998
16:59:14 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:59:18 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Nevermind timeline, it may be easy to do in JavaScript you have an API that makes it easy to deal with.
16:59:22 [fantasai]
sylvaing: We won't have that for years.
16:59:41 [fantasai]
sylvaing: We don't have APIs that make it easy to navigate style rules and change colors
16:59:53 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Don't want to parse CSS in JavaScript
17:00:29 [Bert]
(Can't we create a Web Macro Language WG, to create something that works for also for HTML, SVG, scripts, etc.?)
17:01:05 [dbaron]
I think most of the use cases presented in the discussion didn't require variables as distinguished from constants.
17:01:35 [sylvaing]
dbaron, true. my own need is mostly constants
17:01:51 [fantasai]
My concern is that people will use variables when they only need constants.
17:02:02 [fantasai]
variables are heavyweight, they require a lot of maintenance in the OM
17:02:14 [arno1]
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17:02:30 [fantasai]
I don't want people to be using variables when they don't need script interactions
17:03:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think we need the stuff that is interchanged across the web to be simpler, not complicated
17:03:49 [fantasai]
dbaron: Because that's the stuff that needs to be reimplemented when you create a new layout engine
17:03:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Yes, we shouldn't throw tons of complexity at the client.
17:04:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: but I think this is important enough
17:04:12 [fantasai]
dbaron: I thinks some of it is and some of it isn't
17:05:20 [fantasai]
...
17:05:26 [sylvaing]
strongly agrees this should be carefully scoped. Start very simple.
17:05:47 [glazou]
+1
17:05:53 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
17:09:37 [fantasai]
fantasai is not minuting this
17:10:35 [fantasai]
Someone suggests going over this at the F2F
17:10:35 [Zakim]
-danielweck
17:10:41 [dbaron]
Daniel probably wants later in the day Japan time
17:10:41 [glazou]
TabAtkins: see /query
17:10:48 [fantasai]
plinss: So Tab, you'll produce some requirements documents and this heated debate will continue another time
17:10:49 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:10:50 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:10:51 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:10:51 [Zakim]
-howcome
17:10:52 [Zakim]
-gsnedders
17:10:52 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
17:10:52 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
17:10:53 [Zakim]
-vhardy
17:10:55 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins_
17:10:57 [Zakim]
-stearns
17:10:59 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
17:11:00 [Bert]
(B.t.w, results of 1998 survey were (1) transparency, (2) columns, (3) leaders. Symbolic constants was 16th, out of 67.)
17:11:01 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:11:03 [glazou]
TabAtkins_: ping
17:11:03 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
17:11:06 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
17:11:09 [Zakim]
- +1.415.920.aabb
17:11:11 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:11:13 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:11:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, stearns, vhardy, bradk, arronei_, [Microsoft], kojiishi, +1.415.920.aabb, johnjan, David_Baron, danielweck, ChrisL, smfr, SteveZ,
17:11:18 [Zakim]
... howcome, Bert, hober, sylvaing, TabAtkins_, +44.131.208.aacc, gsnedders
17:11:35 [glazou]
TabAtkins, TabAtkins_ : still here ?
17:11:58 [dbaron]
9am-5pm Japan is 2am-10am France
17:12:30 [glazou]
dbaron: yeah, end of day in japan better for me
17:13:15 [glazou]
sigh
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17:14:59 [fantasai]
glazou: you can still come :)
17:15:42 [dbaron]
Meeting start time is:
17:15:44 [dbaron]
Wed 2011-06-01 17:00 PDT (California, USA)
17:15:44 [dbaron]
Wed 2011-06-01 20:00 EDT (New York, USA)
17:15:44 [dbaron]
Thu 2011-06-02 02:00 CEST (France)
17:15:44 [dbaron]
Thu 2011-06-02 09:00 JST (Japan)
17:15:45 [fantasai]
750ish euros to Japan doesn't seem too bad
17:15:47 [dbaron]
Meeting end time is:
17:15:54 [dbaron]
Thu 2011-06-02 01:00 PDT (California, USA)
17:15:54 [dbaron]
Thu 2011-06-02 04:00 EDT (New York, USA)
17:15:54 [dbaron]
Thu 2011-06-02 10:00 CEST (France)
17:15:54 [dbaron]
Thu 2011-06-02 17:00 JST (Japan)
17:16:04 [dbaron]
(first day)
17:16:21 [dbaron]
assuming we do 9-5, that is
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17:18:20 [glazou]
TabAtkins: I'm here
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17:18:42 [TabAtkins]
glazou: kk
17:19:03 [Ms2ger]
glazou, I'd be interested in writing tests, but I know barely anything about CSS syntax ;)
17:19:16 [glazou]
Ms2ger: oh ok :-)
17:19:20 [glazou]
nm then
17:19:36 [glazou]
TabAtkins: see /query
17:26:19 [fantasai]
glazou: test fixed
17:26:55 [glazou]
thx
17:26:56 [glazou]
:)
17:27:26 [glazou]
eheh
17:28:17 [fantasai]
I think the other series of tests that would be needed is CSS escapes and SGML escapes (mixed up nicely)
17:28:32 [glazou]
hmmm
17:28:45 [fantasai]
and maybe tossing in a few control characters to see how they parse
17:28:57 [fantasai]
other than that, I'm not coming up with anything else to test here, you?
17:29:35 [glazou]
had not time to check yet
17:30:02 [Ms2ger]
Oh, \f, probably
17:30:30 [glazou]
fantasai: we may need to that at-rules are not honoured
17:30:34 [glazou]
test
17:30:50 [fantasai]
ahhh
17:30:55 [fantasai]
yes :)
17:31:14 [fantasai]
Ms2ger: form feed? yes that's a good one
17:31:26 [glazou]
yep
17:32:39 [hober]
tests for the style attr spec?
17:33:50 [glazou]
yes
17:33:57 [glazou]
do you have some to contribute ?
17:34:25 [Ms2ger]
Oh, that is a space in CSS too
17:35:48 [smfr]
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17:36:30 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0330.html
17:37:37 [Ms2ger]
Oh, XML
17:39:31 [glazou]
dinner time here
17:39:33 [glazou]
bye people
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18:14:58 [fantasai]
Bert?
18:24:59 [fantasai]
Bert: Can you set up css3-writing-modes for publication?
18:25:30 [fantasai]
Bert: I sent a message to webreq... but they probably want it set up or something
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18:42:07 [fantasai]
arronei: does data:text/html;charset=utf-8;base64,PHVsIHN0eWxlPSJsaXN0LXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6IGNqay1pZGVvZ3JhcGhpYzsgbWFyZ2luOiA1ZW0iPg0KICA8bGkgdmFsdWU9IjEwMDAwMSI%2BSXRlbSAxMDAwMDENCjwvdWw%2B give anything interesting in IE9?
18:43:17 [Zakim]
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20:06:00 [Bert]
OK, fantasai, I'll install css3-writing-modes.
20:19:56 [fantasai]
Bert: Thanks!
20:25:57 [Bert]
Fantasai, the file seems to refer to diagrams/glyph-right.svg and diagrams/glyph-upright.svg
20:26:20 [Bert]
I don't see those in CVS.
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20:30:35 [fantasai]
Bert: Checked in
20:30:37 [fantasai]
Bert: sorry
20:35:49 [Bert]
The internal style sheet also centers the W3C logo. :-)
20:36:22 [Bert]
I guess that style rule for IMG needs to be more specific, or needs an override.
20:37:10 [fantasai]
hmmmm
20:37:51 [fantasai]
I think I can fix that :)
20:39:25 [fantasai]
Done
20:40:19 [fantasai]
writing modes has so many awkwardly placed diagrams :/
20:40:25 [fantasai]
and I should be adding /more/
20:45:07 [Bert]
There is a broken fragment, #isolate, on line 491.
20:48:54 [Bert]
Fantasai, any idea what #isolate should point to?
20:49:58 [fantasai]
Bert: yeah. Fixed.
20:50:11 [fantasai]
Bert: The problem was I didn't use <dfn> in some of the value definition lists
20:54:45 [Bert]
One more error (the last one, it seems): the "previous version" is not correct.
20:55:01 [Bert]
Should be http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110201/
20:59:12 [fantasai]
Bert: fixed
20:59:21 [fantasai]
Bert: Thanks for your review :)
21:01:00 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Wrt discussions on ranges, the principle that underlies the resolutions is that CSS might want to define a minimum range
21:01:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: But not a maximum one
21:01:27 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: in other words, we might require that z-index values between -10,000 and 10,000 be supported
21:01:39 [Ms2ger]
We should only define exact ranges
21:01:42 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: but won't require clipping to that range if an implementation is capable of supporting 10,000,000
21:02:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Similarly, we might require that 32 counters are required to be supported in the 'counter-increment' property, but allow for an implementation that supports 120
21:03:29 [TabAtkins]
So, let's pull this back to the relevant discussion, which is limiting the range of the cjk-longhand styles.
21:03:47 [fantasai]
I think that's a reasonable thing for the spec to do
21:04:21 [fantasai]
I'm less convinced that implementations should be *required* to *not* support correct numbering beyond that range
21:05:54 [TabAtkins]
I'm not going to spec more than the range that I require. If they do something beyond that range, it'll be based on their own research, and thus has a good chance of not being interoperable.
21:06:30 [TabAtkins]
Plus, I need to be able to test fallback styles, which relies on lists rendering in a different way outside of their defined range.
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21:08:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: that's pretty easy to do
21:10:15 [TabAtkins]
Explain? I don't see how I can test the rendering of, say, 100001, when it could be 一〇〇〇〇一 or [something undefined].
21:12:55 [fantasai]
write the test to require either 一〇〇〇〇一 or 十..零一
21:13:03 [TabAtkins]
But the latter rendering is undefined.
21:15:06 [fantasai]
We have multiple cases where exact behavior is undefined
21:15:11 [fantasai]
but there is a preferred behavior
21:15:14 [TabAtkins]
All of those are problems.
21:15:25 [fantasai]
In such cases we write the test for the preferred behavior and mark it as an issue
21:15:29 [TabAtkins]
Which I refuse to put in a spec that I edit.
21:16:20 [fantasai]
You'll have to make sure you don't ever wind up editing CSS3 Text then :)
21:16:45 [fantasai]
line breaking and justification are both very undefined
21:16:54 [fantasai]
and that's not a fixable problem
21:17:10 [TabAtkins]
I don't plan to. ^_^
21:17:30 [TabAtkins]
(But I think the lack of definition is a problem there.)
21:18:14 [fantasai]
You haven't spent enough time dealing with the typesetting industry
21:18:29 [TabAtkins]
So, is there a practical purpose for lists that are specifically cjk longhand with counter values >10k?
21:19:15 [fantasai]
No idea. I'm just uncomfortable with requiring UAs to do something that's wrong when there's no really good reason to do that.
21:19:34 [fantasai]
We know it's wrong.
21:19:39 [fantasai]
We know the right answer.
21:20:00 [fantasai]
It's not too complicated to implement, because we have two implementations.
21:20:10 [TabAtkins]
I'm comfortable with the practical answer here of "nobody will ever care".
21:20:24 [fantasai]
if nobody cares
21:20:30 [TabAtkins]
(One impl is buggy.)
21:20:30 [fantasai]
then why not allow two behaviors?
21:20:41 [TabAtkins]
Because that's *not what you do when you're writing specs*.
21:20:52 [fantasai]
(True. But that doesn't seem like a problem that's hard to fix.)
21:21:05 [TabAtkins]
The point of a spec is to promote interop.
21:21:21 [TabAtkins]
Putting in options that no one cares about does not accomplish that goal.
21:23:26 [fantasai]
If later on you find out that someone cares, then what?
21:23:32 [TabAtkins]
Then we change the spec.
21:24:17 [TabAtkins]
If a simple system happens to address theoretical cases, great. But you don't make a system more complex unless you have concrete need to do so.
21:26:29 [fantasai]
The "then we change the spec" bit is the part that concerns me
21:26:47 [TabAtkins]
Why? Specs are easy to change.
21:27:12 [TabAtkins]
I'm rather certain that changing this sort of thing won't break anyone, if we ever do so.
21:27:29 [fantasai]
If it's a possibility, then you should at least note it in the spec.
21:27:29 [TabAtkins]
(The certainty that it doesn't matter in the first place leads me to believe we won't break anyone.)
21:28:08 [fantasai]
"A future level of this spec may define xyz counter styles beyond this range."
21:28:08 [TabAtkins]
I plan to note that the longhand styles are defined over a much larger range, but I am defining it over a smaller range instead.
21:28:38 [fantasai]
That way implementers know that the behavior may change in the future
21:28:58 [fantasai]
and authors have a chance of knowing that too
21:29:35 [TabAtkins]
If it removes your objections, I'm okay with making sure I phrase the note to that effect.
21:29:57 [fantasai]
yeah, that works for me
21:30:10 [fantasai]
although I still think you need to ask the WG for opinions from other people
21:30:15 [TabAtkins]
I did, this morning. ^_^
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